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The Lord's Second Appearing

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by franklin, Jun 4, 2002.

  1. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    What is the correct way for Christians to define the Lord's second coming?

    This question is from an artice titled:
    "Why Historicism is to be preferred before Partial Preterism" It can be found on www.planetpreterist.com

    Just thought I'd post the question for discussion in this forum


    How we recognize truth and error will determine the future of Christianity
     
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  2. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    Now this is the type of things I want to hear about...does someone have a particular book I can get into that helps explain these things insightfully...Thanks franklin...
     
  3. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    franklin...
    May I ask, is this guy saying only full preterists are Christians and in turn they alone have a relationship with their heavenly Father through the Mediator Jesus Chirst...
     
  4. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    Acts 1:11
    Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



    THE REDEEMERS RETURN
     
  5. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Hi Julie, Thank you for the scripture passage from Act111...
    This is one of the futurists traditional proof texts for them trying to validate the return of the Lord 2000 years
    into the future from when Christ spoke these words.
    Let me ask you some basic logical questions..... who was hearing this message? What is the historical setting? As His followers heard these words where they listening with expectancy in hopes of seeing this fulfillment in their lifetime or where they thinking this was something thousands of years into the future? We need to read the Bible with first century eyes.... not 21st century eyes....

    Julie, I saw this quote on the link you posted:
    It must be noted that A.W. Pink, later in his life, rejected many facets of premillenialism and dispensationalism as presented in these two works.

    God Bless
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Greek "Tropos"

    Does it mean:

    "Exactly the same in every detail"?

    or

    "Similar in some fashion"?

    I maintain it must mean the latter.

    Jesus Left as the humble servant, without the company of angels, did not pass out rewards, and only the disciples saw him go.

    If "like manner as" (Tropos) means "exactly the same in every detail", then He would return exactly as He left;
    As the humble servant, without angels, without rewards, and only the disciples would see him return.

    He was to return in the same manner He went into Heaven.

    How did Jesus enter Heaven?

    Hidden from the eyes by a cloud. (Vs. 9)
     
  7. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    What the verse in Acts 1:11 means, is that He will be seen.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Could you describe exactly how you exegete that meaning from Acts 1:11?
     
  9. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Jesus was seen ascending and He will be seen when He returns. The Bible makes this clear in other verses as well. Jesus did not return spiritually, but He will return physically.
     
  10. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Mandy, the Bible is clear that this was not written TO us today but FOR us today..... it was written to the group of people Jesus spoke TO! Your reading your Bible through 21st century eyes not first century eyes! Were those that were hearing this message expecting to be alive 2000 years from when they heard Jesus speak those words? Show me the the other verses you are referring to that says Jesus's second appearing will be physical?
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The ascention was "witnessed" by the disciples.
    They "saw" Jesus go "into heaven", "hidden from the eyes by a cloud".(vs. 9)

    Can the interior of Heaven be seen with physical eyes?

    What does the Bible say?

    Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

    Did Stephen "see" into heaven with physical eyes, or was he in fact given "eyes to see"?

    No one else standing there "saw" what Stephen "saw" so clearly he saw with spiritual eyes. Since the exact same language is used in Acts 1:11, we can be confident that the disciples likewise were given "eyes to see" Jesus ascention much the same way Elisha was given "eyes to see" Elijah's going...

    2 Kings 2:9-12
    9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?" Elisha said, "Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me." 10 So he said, You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so." 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, "My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!" So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces.


    So, when one takes the time to compare scripture with scripture, we can "see" that the ascention of Jesus "into heaven" could not have been witnessed unless one was given by the spirit eyes to see.

    and as Acts 1:11 so clearly testifies, He returned in "like manner". I thank God I was given by the spirit, "eyes to see" this truth
     
  12. Here is the biblicaly view. The angel presented spiritual truths. Let's look at the verse...Who also said, "'Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.'" (Acts 1:11)

    What was the manner (fashion) that the disciples saw him go into heaven? Verse nine contains the answer. Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight (Acts 1:9) Verse eleven is speaking of the manner of Jesus' going into heaven.

    What was that manner? A cloud received Him out of their sight. Now just to see if we are correct in our exegesis of these verses, let's ask another question. Did Jesus ever mention his return in the manner of clouds? Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you , hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on theclouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64)

    As you can see, these verses bear witness that Jesus returned in the same like manner as he appeared in the Old Testament. In the clouds. One of the easiest things is letting the Bible speak for itself. One of the more difficult things is letting the Bible speak for itself.
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Bump
     
  14. Kelier

    Kelier New Member

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    Amen!!!

    Just as Jesus Christ my redeemer lives, He will return, just as the Scriptures clearly teach.
     
  15. We agree scriptures clearly teachs the return of Christ however it does not teach you would see it. Jesus speaking to the high Caiaphas had this to say.

    Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, [/B} Hereafter shall you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power,
    and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matthew 26:65)

    For some reason I believe Jesus know what he was talking about more then any traditional teaching of men today.
     
  16. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

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    This comment is totally off-topic, but I was LOL at the statements by the RR board manager about upgrading his server in expectation of increased traffic due to the upcoming rapture (and the clown symbol used as the picture next to the story).

    -Chris
     
  17. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Yo Manifest! Isn't this passage amazing? This passage alone where Christ speaks to Caiaphas should be enough evidence for all futurists to forsake there errouneous beliefs immediately! Unless they believe that Caiaphas is still roaming around Jerusalem somewhere at the age of 2000 or more years of age! Caiaphas knew exactly what Jesus was referring to and it was very possible that the Jewish high priest would see Christ return within that 40 year (generational) timeframe! Why else would he rip his clothes and accuse Christ of blasphemy?
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hiya Julie, and Christ's riches.

    Consistent within the book of Acts itself, Luke was refering to Christ's appearing to them as in Acts 7:55-59 and Acts 9:3-6 and Acts 10:11-16/11:7-11. These appearances of Christ came to them from Heaven (7:55; 9:3; 10:11; 11:9,11:5) exactly as he had went into Heaven (Acts 1:11).

    You also might have picked up on the "clouds" language in the Acts 1 passage.
    The mention of clouds is another consistent theme of the comings and goings of divine beings and saints (see: Dan 7:13; Rev 11:12). Yahweh was famous for his cloud-comings and apocalyptic comings down to earth (Isaiah 19:1-2; 2 Sam 22:10-14; Deut 33:2; Psalm 97:2-5; Ezek 30:3; Ps 104:3; Nah 1:3; Ex 34:5; Judges 5:4-7; Jer 4:13; Zeph 1:14-15; Psalm 68:32-35).

    Finally, we have another example in Revelation 14:14-20 where Christ is depicted in a "cloud-coming" that is clearly in the heavenlies -- while Christ comes in the heavenlies in that passage, it causes calamities upon the earth. This is how the jews understood Yahweh to come, and so the apostle John is depicting Christ as equal to Yahweh and doing exactly as Yahweh had always done in His judgments upon nations. So, Rev 14:14-20 shows us what a "cloud-coming" means and its precise nature.
     
  19. Hi franklin :wave: Truth is always truth even if our futurist brothers do not believe it. The key to Biblical prophecy lies not in some imagined future, but in the past- where God-Jesus places it!
     
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