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The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Oct 1, 2017.

  1. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 20:4-6 is clearly cited as the FIRST [massive]RESURRECTION reward for the SAINTS MARTYRS...the marriage ... but there will be another judgment for all those not part of the first resurrection.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    This stance contradicts the plain sequence of Revelations Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, then the glorious Return of Jesus, where He merely destroys the armies attacking Jerusalem and just chains up Satan. Then at the end of the Millennium, comes the final Judgement of every person and Satan.
    Your notion of one Judgement at the Return is quite wrong.

    Re 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; this prophecy describes the Day of the Lord's wrath, where He will not be seen by the world, only by those who are His own people.

    I didn't bother to watch your video, but yes: The Millennium will be 1000 years - Revelation 20:2, 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 say it will be.
    Also proved by the 6000 years timeline decreed for mankind, then the 1000 year Sabbath era.
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I cannot find the word "reward" anywhere in the text below.
    However, that word is found in Revelation 11:18.


    Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 
    Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 
    Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



    The first resurrection of every Christian is found below.

     
    Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 


    The second resurrection is found below.

    Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 

    Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (How many is "all"?)

    Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 


    Joh 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  4. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    In Revelation 11:18 there is no resurrection who have happened yet....thus the reward for the Prophets and The Saints [Martyrs] is the resurrection to reign with Jesus on the Earth during the millennium mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6.

    The Prophets and SAINTS MARTYRS of Revelation 11:18 have to wait the LAST MARTYRS WHO WILL BE BEHEADED DURING THE 42 MONTHS REIGN OF THE BEAST Revelation 20:4-6.

    The prophets have all been slain because they keep the words of God....The 12 Apostles have all been martyred for the words of God and the testimony of Jesus...millions of other Christians have been martyred and slain since then....and we hear of Christians actually been tortured and killed in Muslim countries....That is the 5Th Seal in action...a growing number of Martyred Christians until that God decide to avenge their blood....The last GROUP OF MARTYRS WILL BE DURING THE 42 Months reign of the Beast. Revelation 13

    Revelation 6:9-11 the 5 TH Seal [Growing number of Christians martyrs]
    9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    11 And there was given them to each one a white robe;and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled [their course].[/b]
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Then why does the text of Revelation 11:18 say it is the time of the judgment of the dead, if it is not the time of the judgment of the dead?

    Revelation 11:18

    (CJB)  "The Goyim raged. But now your rage has come, the time for the dead to be judged, the time for rewarding your servants the prophets and your holy people, those who stand in awe of your name, both small and great. It is also the time for destroying those who destroy the earth."

    (ESV)  The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

    (Geneva)  And the Gentiles were angrie, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they shoulde be iudged, and that thou shouldest giue reward vnto thy seruants the Prophets, and to the Saintes, and to them that feare thy Name, to small and great, and shouldest destroy them, which destroy the earth.
    (GW)  The nations were angry, but your anger has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged: to reward your servants, the prophets, your holy people, and those who fear your name, no matter if they are important or unimportant, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

    (LITV-TSP)  And the nations were full of wrath; and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your slaves, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.

    (KJV)  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    (KJV+)  AndG2532 theG3588 nationsG1484 were angry,G3710 andG2532 thyG4675 wrathG3709 is come,G2064 andG2532 theG3588 timeG2540 of theG3588 dead,G3498 that they should be judged,G2919 andG2532 that thou shouldest giveG1325 rewardG3408 unto thyG4675 servantsG1401 theG3588 prophets,G4396 andG2532 to theG3588 saints,G40 andG2532 them that fearG5399 thyG4675 name,G3686 smallG3398 andG2532 great;G3173 andG2532 shouldest destroyG1311 them which destroyG1311 theG3588 earth.G1093


    (NKJV)  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

    (YLT)  and the nations were angry, and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.'

    You are using circular logic in an attempt to make the premill doctrine work, which has already been killed by Matthew 25:31-46 and 2 Timothy 4:1.


    .
     
  6. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    True....for ALL THOSE who will be DEAD at that moment Revelation 11:18 ...

    But UPON WHAT do you think that all those that will be ALIVE will be JUDGED at that moment Revelation 11:18 (that you interpret as being the Coming of Jesus at the 6 Th seal [Revelation 6:12-17])--knowing that the 42 months reign of the Beast WILL PRECEDE THE COMING OF JESUS ?

    As you can see the 42 Months Reign of the Beast will be inevitable ...because it will precede the RETURN OF JESUS ...whatever if you believe that the Coming of Jesus will happen at the 6TH SEAl [Revelation 6:12-17]..Rather than at the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-21.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I believe both are speaking of the same event, because of the text.

    The characters at the end of Revelation chapter 6, which are the same characters found in chapter 19 (kings, captains, mighty men, free and bond), are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of chapter 6.

    They would not be hiding from the wrath of the Lamb unless the Lamb is present at that point.

    Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 
    Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 
    Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? 


    Much confusion could be avoided if we understand that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
    Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.


    The end of Revelation chapter 6 and Revelation chapter 19 are both speaking of the Second Coming of Christ, if we simply believe what the words of the text say instead of attempting to force them to fit a manmade system of interpretation.

    .
     
  8. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    The interpretation that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order is also a manmade system of interpretation.

    Thus so far ,you have thrown out of your Bible Revelation 20:4-6 about the 1,000 years reign of Jesus on the Earth with his SAINTS because it does not fit your system of interpretation.

    I suppose that you believe that the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 13 that will precede the Coming of Jesus is only symbolic....isn't it ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    It is impossible for the Sixth Seal to be at the same time as the glorious Return.
    You simply haven't read verses like Amos 5:18-20, to think that could happen at Jesus' Return.
    Its quite illogical, anyway, as the world will have just experienced the disasters of the 7 Trumpet and 7 Bowl punishments.

    There is a sequence of events to happen soon; first the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt. But we Christians have the Lord's promises of protection and of living in all of the holy Land. Read Psalms 107 for the great story, told in advance, of how we will migrate there.
    Whoever is wise. let him lay these things to heart and consider the loving deeds of the Lord.
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

    .
     
  11. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    AND they LIVED and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

    [AND THEY LIVED] IS ABOUT THEIR PHYSICAL RESURRECTION...who obviously will happen once Jesus will return on Earth to establish His 1,000 years reign as clearly mentioned in the text of Revelation 20:4-6.
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (This is the first resurrection in John chapter 5.)



    Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
     
    Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (How many is "all"?)


    Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 
    (This is the second resurrection in John chapter 5. It is the bodily resurrection of "all" the dead. It contains reward for some and punishment for others.)


    Joh 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 
    (The second resurrection of "all" the dead is concurrent with the judgment of "all" the dead.)


    These are the words of the Son of God, who is the judge.


    These words were recorded by the same man who recorded Revelation chapter 20.



    In the verse below the word "thousand" is used in a symbolic manner in the same way that the word "chain" is used in a symbolic manner in Revelation chapter 20, because Satan is a spirit being who cannot be bound with a chain made of steel.


    Psa 50:10  For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. 


    When does this judgment occur?

    2Ti 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

     

    This is confirmed by Matthew 25:31-46.


    Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 

    Mat 25:32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 

    Mat 25:33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 

    Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
     


    The symbolic language of Revelation chapter 20 can only be understood through the clear language of other passages.
    The premill doctrine only works by ignoring those clear passages.


    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  13. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Can you find a reason why the passage in Revelation 20:4-6 focus primarily upon those that will be BEHEADED because they will refuse to take the mark and will refuse to worship the Beast and his image .Which is a direct Reference to the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 13 that is prophesied to happen before the Coming of Jesus ?
    Revelation 20:4-6
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that HAD BEEN BEHEADED for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The beheadings began in the first century with John the Baptist and the Apostle Paul.
    Both were sealed by the Blood of the Lamb and both refused to bow down to the world system in the same way that the three Hebrew men refused to bow down and chose the fiery furnace, instead.


    It continues in the same way today with our Brothers and Sisters in the Middle East being beheaded for our faith.

    It will not end before the Second Coming.

    .
     
  15. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully the 42 months reign of the Beast [Revelation 13] prophesied to happen before the Coming of Jesus is not going to happen soon....knowing what will be reserved for the unfortunate Christians who be alive in those times Revelation 20:4-6
     
  16. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Thus Revelation 20:4-6 is really a reward for the martyrs ....the rest of the dead [good and bad] will be Judged at the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:7-15] 1,000 years later...those whose names are found written in the Book of Life will be resurrected for eternal life in a new incorruptible physical body as they were...while those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire [Revelation 20:15].
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Here is your problem...
    Whose names are written in the book of life?


    Php_4:3  And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

    The names of Christians are written in the book of life, based on Paul's words above.
    Based on what you have said above, Christians will not be resurrected until 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ.


    When does Paul say that the fire comes?
    In 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 Paul says that Christ returns in "flaming fire", at His Second Coming.
    The fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20.


    If I could get the premill doctrine to line up with the rest of the Bible, I would gladly accept it as the truth.

    .
     
  18. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    What happen at the End of Revelation 20 just AFTER the fire Mentioned in Revelation 20:9?
     
  19. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Of course the Christians have their names written in the Book of Life.The point is that Revelation 20:11-15 tell us that those whose names are found written in the Book of Life will be judged at the SAME TIME that those whose names are not in the Book of Life.

    That in itself prove that the Resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 will be a reward for the Prophets [ the OT Prophets have been slain ]and the CHRISTIANS MARTYRS [including those who will be beheaded during the FUTURE 42 Months Reign of The Beast Revelation 13....

    Both of these BODILY RESURRECTION [Revelation 20:4-6] and [Revelation 20:11-15] ARE YET TO COME.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I agree with Riberra on this issue.
    Those whose names are in the Book of life are every faithful Christian believer. We have the promise of Eternal life. John 3:16 But we must stand firm on our faith, for it is possible to have your name blotted out from the Book. Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28
    Eternal life is our promise and reward: but plainly it is not received until the end of the Millennium.
    Jesus does NOT Return in flaming fire. The prophecy of 1 Thessalonians 1:6-10, refers to the Lord's Day of wrath, that will happen at the Sixth Seal, years before the glorious Return. Isaiah 66:15-16, 2 Peter 3:7
    And the fire in Revelation 20:14, is the Lake of Fire; nothing to do with the earth.
     
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