The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

[Riberra]

No doubt in my mind.

Thus the events of the 6TH Seal [Revelation 6:12-17]will happen some years before the Coming of Jesus described in [Matthew 24:29-31] ..even if at first view these events seem to share some similarity.

To be clear, the events of the 6Th seal [Revelation 6:12-17]will set the scene for the beginning of the great tribulation....thus the urgency to Seal the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:1-8...

Revelation 7:1-8
1 After this i saw ....
>After [the events of 6 TH SEAL] I saw...

 

[Achilles6129]

Here's an old thread that I started on the sixth seal where I show that it is indeed the day of Christ's return:

The Sixth Seal: The True Interpretation

 

[BABerean2]

Thus the events of the 6TH Seal [Revelation 6:12-17]will happen some years before the Coming of Jesus described in [Matthew 24:29-31] ..even if at first view these events seem to share some similarity.

"some similarity" makes it sound like less than a majority.

The Coming of the Son of Man

Mat 24:29　 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:　
Mat 24:30　 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.　
Mat 24:31　 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

　
The Coming of the Son of Man

Mar 13:24　 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,　
Mar 13:25　 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.　
Mar 13:26　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.　
Mar 13:27　 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.　



Rev 6:12　 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;　
Rev 6:13　 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.　
Rev 6:14　 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.　

Rev 6:15　 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;　
Rev 6:16　 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:　
Rev 6:17　 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Are there more similarities or more differences?

If the moon was blood red it would not be producing its normal light, as in a lunar eclipse, because the earth is blocking the sun's light from hitting the moon and being reflected back to the earth.

Therefore, any change in the moon would be a "sign" as found in Luke's Gospel.

　
Rev_11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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[keras]

Here's an old thread that I started on the sixth seal where I show that it is indeed the day of Christ's return:

The true interpretation of the Sixth Seal is to know it will happen exactly where and when Revelation places it.
Moving it to Christ's Return involves shuffling the given sequence and also means the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls happen before the seals of the Scroll are removed. Impossible!

BaB says the moon will be blood red at the Sixth Seal, This is correct and also Isaiah 30:26 says the moon will shine as bright as the sun on that Day.
This effect can and will be produced by the superheated hydrogen plasma of a huge CME striking the moon, causing a thermite reaction with the moon dust.

 

[Riberra]

Are there more similarities or more differences?

The difference is that what follow the 6TH SEAL events mentioned in Revelation 6:12-17 .... will be the sealing of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:1-8

Notice that nobody will try to hide in Matthew 24:29-31... Those who will have taken the mark and worshiped the Beast and his image ... will mourn when they will see Jesus Coming in Glory because they will know from "their gut feeling" that their end is arrived..

The moment they will take the mark and worship the Beast and his image condemn them...as mentioned in Revelation 14:9-13 .

>>During the 42 months reign of the Beast[Revelation 13] only 2 choices will be possible for the 8 Billion humans alive during those times.

Revelation 14:9-13
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

 

[Achilles6129]

Hi,

Please interact with the Scripture I posted regarding the 6th seal in my thread. The book of Revelation is not in chronological order as you suggest.

 

[keras]

Please interact with the Scripture I posted regarding the 6th seal in my thread. The book of Revelation is not in chronological order as you suggest.

But the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls plainly are a sequence. Revelation says: Then, after that, then I saw, etc.
Any shuffling of them is done just to suit an agenda, one that incurs for those who do it; the curse of Revelation 22:19
As the Sixth Seal and the attack upon Israel as described in Psalms 83, are the same event, along with 100 + other prophesies describing that terrible Day, we know it must be the next action the Lord will take on earth. Micah 4:11-12, Isaiah 42:14-15, Jeremiah 25:30-33

 

[BABerean2]

The difference is that what follow the 6TH SEAL events mentioned in Revelation 6:12-17 .... will be the sealing of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:1-8

Notice that nobody will try to hide in Matthew 24:29-31...

Brother,

You are not dealing with all of the text in my last post.
You are making inferences which are intended to support your viewpoint, without considering a majority of the text.

We cannot know that nobody hides during the event of Matthew 24:29-31, just because that text does not include the word "hide", just as we cannot know that nobody screams, during the same event just because it is not included in the text.

Based on the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13, the wicked will be gathered first at the Second Coming of Christ.
Based on 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, Christ returns in "flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God.
It is human nature to hide from "flaming fire" or any other source of destruction.
..........................................................

The following is a quote from Pastor Tim Warner on the viewpoint of early Church father Victorinus, from the following source.
Bolding is by me.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

"Like most posttribulationists today, Victorinus did not interpret the seals, trumpets, and vials, chronologically (as pretribulationists do). He believed they overlapped, the last of each series converging on the coming of Christ. He believed the sixth seal would occur at the end of the tribulation.
"[A]lthough the same thing recurs in the phials [vials], still it is not said as if it occurred twice, but because what is decreed by the Lord to happen shall be once for all; for this cause it is said twice. What, therefore, He said too little in the trumpets, is here found in the phials [vials]. We must not regard the order of what is said, because frequently the Holy Spirit, when He has traversed even to the end of the last times, returns again to the same times, and fills up what He had before failed to say. Nor must we look for order in the Apocalypse; but we must follow the meaning of those things which are prophesied."16
The cosmic signs associated with this seal, the darkening of the sun and moon, are the same signs Jesus said would occur "immediately after the tribulation" (cf. Matt. 24:29 & Rev. 6:12-14). So, when Victorinus wrote; "the Church shall be taken away," at the sixth seal, he is confirming what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31. When the sun and moon are darkened, Jesus will gather together “His elect.” But, this is clearly in a posttribulation context."


As you can see above Victorinus also understood that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order and that the text from Matthew 24:29-31 and the text from Revelation chapter 6 are referring to the same event.

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[Riberra]

As you can see above Victorinus also understood that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order and that the text from Matthew 24:29-31 and the text from Revelation chapter 6 are referring to the same event.

Lets suppose -as you propose- that the 6TH SEAL [Revelation 6:12-17] is related to the Coming of Jesus mentioned in [ Revelation 16:15-21] which is going to happen at the 7 TH VIAL .

Then explain how do you manage to get the 6Th SEAL also related to the 7 TH Trumpet [Revelation 11:14-15] ?


Remember that the 7 VIALS of the WRATH of GOD mentioned in Revelation 16 will happen sometimes AFTER the 7TH Trumpet..

 

[BABerean2]

Remember that the 7 VIALS of the WRATH of GOD mentioned in Revelation 16 will happen sometimes AFTER the 7TH Trumpet..

Absolutely not. Those events occur at the 7th trumpet.

At Revelation 11:15 we have the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, occurring at the Second Coming of Christ.
The text says this is the point at which the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever".
How much clearer could the text be?

At the same time we have God's wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.
Once again, how could the text be any clearer?

Attempting to force the book of Revelation into a perfect chronology only produces confusion.

Chapter 12 begins with a review of Church history, including the fall of Satan and the birth and death of the "man-child", who is Christ.


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[Riberra]

Attempting to force the book of Revelation into a perfect chronology only produces confusion.

Where do you place the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 13 ..
Is it before the 7Th Trumpet [Revelation 11:14-15] or after ?

Revelation 11:14-15
14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become [the kingdom] of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[keras]

Where do you place the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 13 ..
Is it before the 7Th Trumpet [Revelation 11:14-15] or after ?

The 1260 day, 42 month or 3 1/2 year period will occur just before Jesus Returns. It is the period that Satan is given control of the world. Revelation 13:5-8 All the events described in the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls will happen then.
Please do not post any opinions and false teachings that contradict this truth here.

The chronology of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls is a given. They will occur in the sequence as Written.
Already the first five Seals are opened and the Sixth Seal will soon be triggered by an Islamic attack upon Israel.

 

[BABerean2]

Where do you place the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 13 ..
Is it before the 7Th Trumpet [Revelation 11:14-15] or after ?

Revelation 11:14-15
14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become [the kingdom] of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Since the end of chapter 11 is Christ's Second Coming, it must be before.

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[Riberra]

Since the end of chapter 11 is Christ's Second Coming, it must be before.

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The Coming is NOT in Revelation 11....It is Described in Revelation 16:15-17.

The 42 months reign of the Beast [Revelation 13]will happen BEFORE the COMING of JESUS MENTIONED IN REVELATION 16:15-17

 

[Riberra]

The 1260 day, 42 month or 3 1/2 year period will occur just before Jesus Returns. It is the period that Satan is given control of the world. Revelation 13:5-8 All the events described in the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls will happen then.
Please do not post any opinions and false teachings that contradict this truth here.

The chronology of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls is a given. They will occur in the sequence as Written

Absolutely....but
The Seven Trumpets will happen BEFORE that Satan and his fallen angels will be cast out of Heaven [Revelation 12:7-12]....then will come the 42 months reign of the Beast [Revelation 13].

The 7TH TRUMPET will start the beginning of the THIRD WOE...
Revelation 11:14-15
14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said,


THe THIRD WOE IS SATAN Who WILL BE CAST OUT OF HEAVEN WITH HIS FALLEN ANGELS [Revelation 12:7-12]...AND Satan -the dragon- WILL GIVE [Revelation 13:4-5]his power to the BEAST TO CONTINUE 42 MONTHS.

 

[BABerean2]

The Coming is NOT in Revelation 11....It is Described in Revelation 16:15-17.

Well, at least you are half right.

1Co 15:50　 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.　
1Co 15:51　 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,　
1Co 15:52　 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.　
1Co 15:53　 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.　
1Co 15:54　 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.　



Rev 10:7　 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.　


Eph 5:32　 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
　



Joh 5:27　 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.　

Joh 5:28　 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,　

Joh 5:29　 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.　


Joh 5:30　 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.　




Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　

Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　

Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　

Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　

Rev 11:19　 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.　

THE END


There is no 8th trumpet in the Bible.
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[Riberra]

There is no 8th trumpet in the Bible.
.

There is 7 Trumpets mentioned in Revelation and these 7 Trumpets will happen DURING THE TRIBULATION ...do you agree with that ?

 

[Riberra]

There is no 8th trumpet in the Bible.
.

The "8 Th Trumpet" will happen AFTER the tribulation of those days ...
Matthew 24:29-31

 

[keras]

Absolutely....but
The Seven Trumpets will happen BEFORE that Satan and his fallen angels will be cast out of Heaven [Revelation 12:7-12]....then will come the 42 months reign of the Beast [Revelation 13].

The 7TH TRUMPET will start the beginning of the THIRD WOE...
Revelation 11:14-15
14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said,


THe THIRD WOE IS SATAN Who WILL BE CAST OUT OF HEAVEN WITH HIS FALLEN ANGELS [Revelation 12:7-12]...AND Satan -the dragon- WILL GIVE [Revelation 13:4-5]his power to the BEAST TO CONTINUE 42 MONTHS.

How then, do you reconcile Revelation 11:15.....Sovereignty over the world has passed to God and to Christ and He shall reign forever!
With Satan being given permission to control the world for 42 months? Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:5, Daniel 7:25, Zechariah 14:1-2
You have made an impossible situation here. Obviously Jesus takes control at His Return, as we read in Revelation 19:11-17
Both of you, Riberra and BaB, would be far better to cease your speculations and guesswork about the last days events, as you just show how confused and stuck in false beliefs that you are.

What I am trying to do in this thread, is to warn people of the next event, which is the Lord's Day of wrath, plainly shown by Jesus as He quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a, stopping just before the yet to happen, many prophesied; terrible Day that will change our world and lead up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

 

[Riberra]

Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 11:18 is about a Judgment and reward of those that will be aleady dead [prophets...saints rewarded] [no mention of a resurrection yet]....

Those that will be alive on the Earth at that moment will have to go through a special selection process ....

Revelation 14
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.
14 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud [I saw] one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand sharp sickle.