The Logic of C.S. Lewis

[WinAce]

Do you have *anything* that *hasn't* already been beaten into fossilized horse remains by skeptics?

 

[Received]

I've had many things on religion beaten into the ground by skeptics. Even on the accounts that I have not addressed religion, it still comes up. On the part of logic, nobody has sucessfully taken this into account and rebutted it. All your main arguments are attempting to disprove Christianity. And that goes perfectly with what I expected, with you, and with most every single other atheist/agnostic here in these forums. You mistake the theology you are attempting to sham, and from it you consider all of us heretics. Pity...

blessings,

John

 

[armageddonman]

Originally posted by Received

"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too.

Why? The solar system could have been created by accident, life could have been created on purpose. I don´t see the logical connection.

 

[WinAce]

Originally posted by Received

All your main arguments are attempting to disprove Christianity.

Deism, which you were arguing for, isn't an obnoxious religious belief, so why would I go to any great lengths to demonstrate its inconsistencies?

I have nothing at stake if my neighbours all convert to deism, or if the US government was taken over by deists. In fact, last time that happened, we got a pretty nifty Consitution. Whereas the last time *Christian* or *Muslim* fundies controlled governments, well...

I loved it how you said we need religion to explain that which science has few answers for. I'm sure your logic would seem right at home to the volcano-worshipper and 'solar eclipse is caused by Gawd' crowd.

 

[Received]

Ace, read my arguments correctly. Come on now.

I did not say you needed religion to answer that which we do not know. I merely said that religion answers many things science does not. Perhaps I was being a bit biased, being a Christian and answering it according to a Christain perspective, but religion, and especially Christianity, seems to answer quite well what science cannot. You can argue against it all you wish, but chances are I know a bit more about theology, the Bible, and that kooky God, than you do. I hold that the point of life is discovering truth, putting your finger on it, and running with it. Naturalism has no truth. It gives people no hope. Even secular psychology states you need hope these days. People need something to live for, and something to look foward to, even beyond death. Even the many scientists who claim the universe just "popped" into existence will not "pop" right back out. But according to naturalism, and the nihilism it tends to bring upon the followers of it, you have no hope, you have nothing after life. You have no logical explanation for the beginning of the cosmos, and you have no virtue to give to those who support it.

On the part of deism...all I want is for those who have a brain (and many scientists do indeed have one) to think with it, and take things ONE step at a time. If this means going from atheism to deism, so be it. Deism does not disprove Christianity or religion, but it is the incomplete example of it. The fullness (speaking personally) of religion lies in the fulness of knowing God. Christianity provides a good road map of this.

Also, I might add that I am opposed to theocracy. Belief should be at your liberty. But going against logic is not to be tolerated in attempting to search for the truth.

Why? The solar system could have been created by accident, life could have been created on purpose. I don´t see the logical connection.

Armageddon, "could be" answers are not answers. Stop assuming for once. The solar system could not have been created by accident. Having a creator negates the possibility. Everying He does in bringing the natural into existence will not be accident but purpose. If I threw a pebble into a lake, would the ripples be accident?

blessings,

John

 

[Morat]

  Who said the solar system formed by accident? I, for instance, claim the formation of solar systems is not an uncommon occurance due to little things like gravity and supernovaes.

   How is that "by accident"?

 

 

[Received]

As I stated in a previous thread:

If something happens without intention, it is an accident. If you do not have a will you cannot have intentions. Thus, if you do not have a will, every event that takes place is an accident. This is all ignoring logical fallacy, which is the fallacy of believing that a divine will used accidents to bring about a purpose.

blessings,

John

 

[Morat]

  Great. So now that we've decided that you said "The Solar System could not have arisen except through planning", it's time for you to support that statement.

  Go for it. I await with awe your forthcoming defense of that statement. It should be a doozy, as an unplanned explanation not only exists, but seems to be darn accurate.

 

 

[armageddonman]

Originally posted by Received
As I stated in a previous thread:

If something happens without intention, it is an accident. If you do not have a will you cannot have intentions. Thus, if you do not have a will, every event that takes place is an accident. This is all ignoring logical fallacy, which is the fallacy of believing that a divine will used accidents to bring about a purpose.

blessings,

John

 

So? You didn´t aswer my question. If the universe came into beeing by accident, life could still have been created with purpose. Maybe the "creator" came into beeing by accident as well.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by armageddonman
Why? The solar system could have been created by accident, life could have been created on purpose. I don´t see the logical connection.

AM, it's true -- we can assume that the universe itself was God's doing and that biological evolution took place, but it's not logical. Just like saying that your father built your home, but then your kitchen table slowly developed overtime.

As far as i know, people who accept evolution accept chemical evolution, cosmic evolution, and biological evolution (they go hand-in-hand with each other). When people say God created this universe, they usually mean the whole thing, not just some of it.

God bless you, AM!

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Originally posted by Received
As I stated in a previous thread:

If something happens without intention, it is an accident. If you do not have a will you cannot have intentions. Thus, if you do not have a will, every event that takes place is an accident. This is all ignoring logical fallacy, which is the fallacy of believing that a divine will used accidents to bring about a purpose.

blessings,

John

You're going to make me shoot this down again?

The only way one can have an accident is by something resulting in what was not a willed intent.

i.e. I ment to pour the milk in the glass but missed, it was an accident.

If there is no willed intention there is no accident.

i.e. I was tipping the jar over to see what happened and milk spilled.

Yes we can sau duh the milk spilled, but the result was not accidental.

You and CS Lewis are making the simple mistake of extending human will onto inanimate objects. Anthropormophy, it is common, we mourn and feel pain for cars, compuers and houses when they "die" attribute all sorts of natural noises to ghosts and monsters as kids, etc.etc.

If a meteor strikes Pheonix Arizona tonight will it be an accident? No, because god hates Pheonix, just kidding, but seriously no it won't it will just be an event that happened. A big and sad event, but just like every other natural disaster it is something that just happens, no reason, no will, no intent. These are often labled as acts of God, but did God make that tornado rip through a trailor park? No,a we as humans just say that in an atempt to make sence of things that happen without will or intent.

 

[alexgb00]

Armageddonman, i wrote you a nice post that you probably missed on another thread. It's here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=314600#post314600

Excuse me for the mistakes (i'm still learning it).

 

[armageddonman]

Originally posted by alexgb00

Excuse me for the mistakes (i'm still learning it).

I´ve seen worse mistakes from people who studied german longer

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by armageddonman
I´ve seen worse mistakes from people who studied german longer

Vielen dank, AM. Aber ich schreibte nur drei sätze ! Als wann haben Sie englisch gesprochen (is that right? )?

Mein deutsch Lehrer hat nach München geflogen. Sie wohnen im München, stimmt? Er sagte dass es ist eine schöne Stadt.

Das ist alles. Ich muß neuen Worten wissen.

 

[armageddonman]

Originally posted by alexgb00


Vielen dank, AM. Aber ich schreibte nur drei sätze ! Als wann haben Sie englisch gesprochen (is that right? )?

Almost right

"Seit wann sprechen sie Englisch?" or "Wann haben Sie mit Englisch angefangen?"


Edit: I forgot: I´ve been speaking english for almost 20 years now.
 

 

[armageddonman]

Yes, Munich is beautiful, especially in the summer. And during the Oktoberfest which will start soon. www.oktoberfest.de 
 

 

[alexgb00]

Ich mag der website, aber ich trinke keinen Bier !

Wie spät ist es in der München? Ich wohne in Portland Oregon, und es is spät jetzt. Ich werde mit Ihnen sprechen später, Ja? Auf wiedersehen, AM.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Okay, it is time for me to study my German again. You two lost me way too quickly. LOL

 

[armageddonman]

Originally posted by alexgb00
Ich mag der website, aber ich trinke keinen Bier !

Ich auch nicht. Never liked it.

Wie spät ist es in der München? Ich wohne in Portland Oregon, und es is spät jetzt. Ich werde mit Ihnen sprechen später, Ja? Auf wiedersehen, AM.

10:46 am

Bis später.

 

[Received]

Great. So now that we've decided that you said "The Solar System could not have arisen except through planning", it's time for you to support that statement.

The support of this statement lies in your willing to firstly accept your logic and become a deist. Then you have nothing against religion, as religion is an open door to you. You have every logical right, under miracles and every supernatural act, to walk through. If you accept deism, go to apologetics. If not, read my thread again.

I am here to shed the truth. I am not here to explain it and dissect it. That is impossible to a stiff-necked atheist stuck on naturalism and against anything supernatural. A good part of the Christian story has to do with people blind to what Christians see accepting their little story enough to give it a test run. *waves his hands in the air* I am not a crook!

I second your thought alex. AM, if you have anything else you'd like cleared up, just keep a postin'. I'm not here to compete with you. I could care less if you evangelized the whole world with your religion of naturalism. But while I have my being, and 92% of the world has it's logic, I intend to give it a good faith effort.

blessings,

John