the literal interpretation of scripture

[ewq1938]

Do they beliee that Jesus will reign over a physical kingdom that is to last 1,000 years with Israel ruling the earth, the apostles ruling Israel and the church co-reigning over all with Jesus?

The only people ruling with Christ are Christians so there is no other organization ruling outside of the church which is the body of Christ full of natural and grafted branches.

 

[nolidad]

The only people ruling with Christ are Christians so there is no other organization ruling outside of the church which is the body of Christ full of natural and grafted branches.

Well as we are not reigning yet that statement you made is irrelavent.

We will reign with Jesus when He physically returns, and Israel will be the governors of the earth as prophesied many times!

 

[David Kent]

This might work if, and this is a big if, but if the details of Biblical prophecy did not matter. They do however matter to me so call me what ever names makes you happy but Daniel ch 7, the 10 horns, then another horn (the man of sin), plucking three of the horns, this is all future.

Again it helps to know your history before you say it hasn't happened.

Horns are kings. The Roman empire was succeded by 10 Gothic kingdoms when By convention, the Western Roman Empire is deemed to have ended on 4 September 476, when Odoacer deposed Romulus Augustulus and proclaimed himself ruler of Italy. The Goths then took Role of Italy. Invading Gothic tribes took the western kingdom. They were Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and Saxons. Ten in all. The Papacy overthrew 3 of these kingdoms, the Hruli, in 493, the Vandals, 534 and the Ostogoths, in 553. 10 Kingdoms set up, three horns plucked up. The papacy
ruled this kingdoms known as the "Papal States" till 1870 when Victor Emanuel" took them from the papacy and became King of Italy. Strangely although the French revolution destroyed much of the papal power in France, it was French reolutionary troops that kept the pope in power till 1870 when the Prussians invaded France, and the |French troops went to defend their home country.
.

If it were all past history, then the preterist, who think Jesus returned in 70AD, would be able to identify the antichrist. But it is all future so they can't give that ID and also because to those of us that take the words of the Bible seriously, the actual details actually matter. It's not enough for me to say that too many details have not come to pass, rather it is factual to say that almost none of the details have come to pass in history.

I have no Idea what preterists may say tho that. But I know that the Wldensians named the Antichrist. Jan Hus and the Hussites named the Antichrist. The Lallards in England named the Antichrist, and they all nmed the Pope. They were all before the reformation.
After the Reformation, Luther independently named the Antichrist, Calvin named the Antichrist, the Puritans named the Antichrist, the Anglicans named the Antichrist, the Presbyterians named the Antichrist, and others no doubt as well. and we ave kept that testimony for over 800 years. Preterists and Futurists both stem from Jesuit teachings, mainly in the last 100 years.

Calvin said. "When one considers the claims of Christ and then the counter claims pf the popes, one would not fail to recognise Antichrist, though he were a ten year old boy." It seems what a ten year old boy could see in Calvin's day, many ;'bible scholars' today cannot see?

 

[David Kent]

I'm curious to know if it would be considered bad form or otherwise inappropriate for dispensationalists here to go to the covenant theology sub-forum and point out all of the flaws, of which there are many, in that system?

If you read back in the threads, I think it was moved to the despensational discussians by a moderator.

 

[David Kent]

Dan. 7: 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

During these ten kings the antichrist arises and conquers three. As Revelation declares the other 7 give him their allegiance. I believe these conquests are the first seal in Revelation opened. when the rider on the white horse goes out conquering and to conquer!

As you can see- I have simply taken Scripture as written and compared it to history! Some things have been fulfilled as written, and some thins are still unfulfilled as written.

No you have not shown that. If you read back a couple of posts you will see that Rome was divided into 10 kingdoms, just as the ECFs undderxstood, out of them came a little horn who plucked up three of them. He calls himself, the POPE, "As God on Earth." He has eyes, His kingdom is called "The Holy See". Who are his eyes? They are the bihops and priests who report back to Rome all the trivia that they learn from the confessional and out side. The priests report to the bishops and they report back to Rome. He has a mouth which speaks great things against God. Well I can list some of the great things he has spoken but that would take more time than I have tonight.
He sahll seek to change times and seasons. Our calendar was intoduced by pope Gregory.

 

[David Kent]

Do they still accept God will fulfill His covenant promises He made to Israel?

He has fulfilled the law, it can't be fulfilled again

 

[David Kent]

Again it helps to know your history before you say it hasn't happened.

Horns are kings. The Roman empire was succeded by 10 Gothic kingdoms when By convention, the Western Roman Empire is deemed to have ended on 4 September 476, when Odoacer deposed Romulus Augustulus and proclaimed himself ruler of Italy. The Goths then took Role of Italy. Invading Gothic tribes took the western kingdom. They were Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and Saxons. Ten in all. The Papacy overthrew 3 of these kingdoms, the Hruli, in 493, the Vandals, 534 and the Ostogoths, in 553. 10 Kingdoms set up, three horns plucked up. The papacy
ruled this kingdoms known as the "Papal States" till 1870 when Victor Emanuel" took them from the papacy and became King of Italy. Strangely although the French revolution destroyed much of the papal power in France, it was French reolutionary troops that kept the pope in power till 1870 when the Prussians invaded France, and the |French troops went to defend their home country.
.


I have no Idea what preterists may say to that. But I know that the Wldensians named the Antichrist. Jan Hus and the Hussites named the Antichrist. The Lallards in England named the Antichrist, and they all nmed the Pope. They were all before the reformation.
After the Reformation, Luther independently named the Antichrist, Calvin named the Antichrist, the Puritans named the Antichrist, the Anglicans named the Antichrist, the Presbyterians named the Antichrist, and others no doubt as well. and we ave kept that testimony for over 800 years. Preterists and Futurists both stem from Jesuit teachings, mainly in the last 100 years.

Calvin said. "When one considers the claims of Christ and then the counter claims pf the popes, one would not fail to recognise Antichrist, though he were a ten year old boy." It seems what a ten year old boy could see in Calvin's day, many ;'bible scholars' today cannot see?

 

[Guojing]

He has fulfilled the law, it can't be fulfilled again

Covenant promise is not equivalent to the Law.

 

[David Kent]

Covenant promise is not equivalent to the Law.

The Law and the prophets were till John. Luke 16:16.

 

[Guojing]

The Law and the prophets were till John. Luke 16:16.

You disagree with what Paul is stating in Romans 11, that God still has a plan for Israel?

 

[nolidad]

Again it helps to know your history before you say it hasn't happened.

Horns are kings. The Roman empire was succeded by 10 Gothic kingdoms when By convention, the Western Roman Empire is deemed to have ended on 4 September 476, when Odoacer deposed Romulus Augustulus and proclaimed himself ruler of Italy. The Goths then took Role of Italy. Invading Gothic tribes took the western kingdom. They were Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and Saxons. Ten in all. The Papacy overthrew 3 of these kingdoms, the Hruli, in 493, the Vandals, 534 and the Ostogoths, in 553. 10 Kingdoms set up, three horns plucked up. The papacy
ruled this kingdoms known as the "Papal States" till 1870 when Victor Emanuel" took them from the papacy and became King of Italy. Strangely although the French revolution destroyed much of the papal power in France, it was French reolutionary troops that kept the pope in power till 1870 when the Prussians invaded France, and the |French troops went to defend their home country.

It helps to know your Bible before you try to twist it to fit history!

REV. 17:
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

DANIEL 2:
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

DANIEL 7:

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Sorry but reading the bible as written and not rewritten- the antichrist rises AFTER the ten kings subdues 3 and the other 7 give their authority to the beast for a short span (one hour). So your analogy does not fit the bible.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It helps to know your Bible before you try to twist it to fit history!

Taking this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ as an isolated statement:
Does it help someone to know their Bible and then willingly <try> to twist it to fit history ?
[ play on words ]
i.e. no, it doesn't help anyone to twist history - nor to believe twisted history (remember the victor rewrites history (or his story?) and more false is taught than true, throughout the world and history).

 

[nolidad]

I have no Idea what preterists may say tho that. But I know that the Wldensians named the Antichrist. Jan Hus and the Hussites named the Antichrist. The Lallards in England named the Antichrist, and they all nmed the Pope. They were all before the reformation.
After the Reformation, Luther independently named the Antichrist, Calvin named the Antichrist, the Puritans named the Antichrist, the Anglicans named the Antichrist, the Presbyterians named the Antichrist, and others no doubt as well. and we ave kept that testimony for over 800 years. Preterists and Futurists both stem from Jesuit teachings, mainly in the last 100 years.

Calvin said. "When one considers the claims of Christ and then the counter claims pf the popes, one would not fail to recognise Antichrist, though he were a ten year old boy." It seems what a ten year old boy could see in Calvin's day, many ;'bible scholars' today cannot see?

Well we dispensationalists do not get our teachings from Jesuits- that is a cop out on your part!

And yes all these people named the popes as the antichrist. But the antichrist is a single person who rules concurrently with the ten horns and through his false prophet causes all to wear a mark! Where anbd what is the mark of the pope?

I have no problem recognizing the spirit of antichrist in many areas- but as I said and as the bible has emphatically declared, the antichrist rises politically and militarily to rule the WHOLE world not just a portion of the world, or the civilized world or the known world (though He never even got that far).

Sorry but no pope or even series of popes meets the criteria Gods Word sets forth as to th epopes of the past being THE antichirst-the Lollards, Waldenses, Calvinists, Lutherans etc.etc.etc. declare- they are men and as such are subject to make a mistake. Their word is not the Scripture!

 

[nolidad]

No you have not shown that. If you read back a couple of posts you will see that Rome was divided into 10 kingdoms, just as the ECFs undderxstood, out of them came a little horn who plucked up three of them. He calls himself, the POPE, "As God on Earth." He has eyes, His kingdom is called "The Holy See". Who are his eyes? They are the bihops and priests who report back to Rome all the trivia that they learn from the confessional and out side. The priests report to the bishops and they report back to Rome. He has a mouth which speaks great things against God. Well I can list some of the great things he has spoken but that would take more time than I have tonight.
He sahll seek to change times and seasons. Our calendar was intoduced by pope Gregory.

Butr your three kings are overthrown over 1/2 century and the others slowly over near 4-5 centuries succumb to catholicism. This is not what the Bible declares so, while it is interesting- it is not Scripture!

 

[nolidad]

He has fulfilled the law, it can't be fulfilled again

God made several covenants with Israel- the mosaic which was desinged as temporary and conditional was just one of them.

You should read the OT and see the promises God still will fulfill to Israel!

 

[nolidad]

The only people ruling with Christ are Christians so there is no other organization ruling outside of the church which is the body of Christ full of natural and grafted branches.

Yes we co reign as His Queen. But the Apostles will over see the 12 tribes of Israel as they govern the 1,000 year kingdom on earth as was promised and reaffirmed by Jesus!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes we co reign as His Queen.

Maybe just words, but no.

 

[nolidad]

Taking this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ as an isolated statement:
Does it help someone to know their Bible and then willingly <try> to twist it to fit history ?
[ play on words ]
i.e. no, it doesn't help anyone to twist history - nor to believe twisted history (remember the victor rewrites history (or his story?) and more false is taught than true, throughout the world and history).

Well in this case, it is a person taking history and then trying to adjust Gods Word to fit the history! The two are not a match, so they alter Gods Word to make it a match!

 

[nolidad]

Maybe just words, but no.

Well as the church is the espoused of Christ and prior to His Return the church marries the Lamb, and He is King of Kings- the wife of a king is known as a queen!

 

[klutedavid]

There is no such thing as a literal interpretation If it is literal it is not an interpretation.

The Sovereign Grace Advent Testimonysays that scripture should be read as it is and not interpreted.

I could not agree more with what you stated.

The problem is that everyone interprets the scripture which generates divisions and strife within Christianity.