the literal interpretation of scripture

[ewq1938]

t God had formed" had meaning had previously formed

As I said, the verb is in the imperfect tense which is an action not yet completed. For it to mean "had formed" it would have to have been the perfect tense. Hebrew grammar simply supports animals being created right there in front of Adam.

 

[coffee4u]

As I said, the verb is in the imperfect tense which is an action not yet completed. For it to mean "had formed" it would have to have been the perfect tense. Hebrew grammar simply supports animals being created right there in front of Adam.

Genesis 1 states animals were made before man on day 6.

 

[JohnAshton]

ew11938 wins this discussion hands down in my opinion. Others will disagree.

And, yes, mankind and animals existed before the Young Earth Creation time line.

 

[JohnAshton]

This thread is one of the best in a long time.

 

[coffee4u]

ew11938 wins this discussion hands down in my opinion. Others will disagree.

And, yes, mankind and animals existed before the Young Earth Creation time line.

What scriptures do you back this up with?

How do you reconcile no death before sin if people and animals had already died all over the earth?
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-

 

[JohnAshton]

Who said "if people and animals had already died all over the earth"?

Or, have you thought, that when Adam and Eve left the garden they shed immortality and joined the rest of the mortal earth?

You simply don't know. You may have faith in what you belief, but that is only for you with no divine or moral obligation for anyone else to believe as you.

 

[nolidad]

Your statement above is not evidence of anything, nolidad. other than what you think, which is your privilege to believe. Please do not impute beliefs to me the which you have no idea.

The OT is pieced together by document from the last two thousand years or so. On the other hand, we have primary evidence and artifacts that mankind first started agricultural settlements some three thousand years before the dating of Adam and Eve. Those are insurmountable, objective facts. Those supporting A&E are not primary but secondary sources, including Jesus reported statements.

We have only narratives down to Abraham, and the argument is fierce as to the historical figure of an "Abraham" character who really lived. I happen to believe he did but that is merely my belief. I also believe the David character existed.

The only facts dating civilization prior to Adam and Eve is fatally flawed and empirically proven flawed dating methods.

Other than the pseudo science of radio-chronology, there is no proof of society prior to God fashioning adam and Eve.

 

[nolidad]

Hi and I have never seen where the BODY OF CHRIST is ever mentioned in the book of the REVELATION , and interested where it is written ??

dan p

Well let me help you.

REv. 19:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

And if you doubt that teh Body of Christ, the church is the bride?
2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Ephesians 5:
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

The Body of Christ is the espoused to jesus whom He shall wed in Rev. 19

 

[JohnAshton]

You, once again, nolidad, are no authority on dating civilization. Your comments fatally flaw your own personal religious insistence on Biblical literalism as a realistic and accurate dating system.

Yes, plenty of proof of human kind existed long before the Young Earth dating system, nolidad.

 

[ewq1938]

Genesis 1 states animals were made before man on day 6.

Yes and in Gen 2 it shows man being created before any animals were created. That's evidence of the two accounts occuring at different times and in a different order.

 

[coffee4u]

Who said "if people and animals had already died all over the earth"?

Or, have you thought, that when Adam and Eve left the garden they shed immortality and joined the rest of the mortal earth?

You simply don't know. You may have faith in what you belief, but that is only for you with no divine or moral obligation for anyone else to believe as you.

You said that there was more than one creation. What verses do you use to suport that there was more than one?

And unless you think the previous creation was magically transported away, they must have lived and died. So my question is how do you reconcile the Bible verses that say there was no death before sin with a previous creation?

I do know, God gave us the details on what he made each day and how long it took and he also said there was no death before sin.

 

[coffee4u]

Yes and in Gen 2 it shows man being created before any animals were created. That's evidence of the two accounts occuring at different times and in a different order.

So you are forming an entire doctrine of multiple creations based on one word, either that 'had' is in the text or not?

 

[ewq1938]

So you are forming an entire doctrine of multiple creations based on one word, either that 'had' is in the text or not?

It's just one of many errors people make who believe the two accounts are the same account twice.

 

[JohnAshton]

You said that there was more than one creation. What verses do you use to suport that there was more than one?

And unless you think the previous creation was magically transported away, they must have lived and died. So my question is how do you reconcile the Bible verses that say there was no death before sin with a previous creation?

I do know, God gave us the details on what he made each day and how long it took and he also said there was no death before sin.

I don't need verses from the OT, coffee4u. That is immaterial. There was indeed no death before sin in the Garden, although death existed outside the Garden. Y

You believe on faith not fact.

 

[JohnAshton]

So you are forming an entire doctrine of multiple creations based on one word, either that 'had' is in the text or not?

Do not formulate conclusions that do not arise from the words, please. There is no "doctrine" of anything, only a discussion on the text, which seems confused about the order of creation.

 

[coffee4u]

I don't need verses from the OT, coffee4u. That is immaterial. There was indeed no death before sin in the Garden, although death existed outside the Garden. Y

You believe on faith not fact.

These are your claims/doctrine/positions:

mankind and animals existed before the Young Earth Creation time line.

although death existed outside the Garden

What scripture do you use to support these statements?

Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina, meaning "teaching", "instruction" or "doctrine") is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or in a belief system

Are you not stating these things as facts? That makes it part of your doctrine.

I never said they had to be Old Testament scriptures, both Old and or New is fine.

I believe what I read in the Bible.

 

[JohnAshton]

My claims are supported by the various sciences.

coffee4u believes only what he reads in the Bible by his own statement.

 

[nolidad]

You, once again, nolidad, are no authority on dating civilization. Your comments fatally flaw your own personal religious insistence on Biblical literalism as a realistic and accurate dating system.

Yes, plenty of proof of human kind existed long before the Young Earth dating system, nolidad.

And you are an expert on dating civilization? Or are you just parroting opinions of people you agree with?

Well I will take the thousands of lives I have blessed over 45 years of walking with Jesus over your opinion that I am pushing my own personal religious insistence.

How quick those who take a position that disagrees with Gods Word love to hurl their ad-hominems to those who have come to know the Bible is true!

But for teh record, the young earth dating system was established when God called forth the universe from no preexisiting material.

And as for all the old age dating methods- they are all crumbling faster than a house of cards in a hurricane based on empirical and peer reviewed published research!

 

[JohnAshton]

nolidad, stay with the subject.

No one is ad homming you by disagreeing with you.

You are a Young Earther and Biblical Literalist who substitutes your opinion as fact, which it is not. I believe you also know that such belief is not necessary for salvation.

I love the Lord's word, read it daily, and have for many decades, many times through. The dating systems in science are constantly involving, improving, and pushing back man's time on earth. In other words, I love God's word but disagree only with your understanding of it in terms of Young Earth.

 

[nolidad]

nolidad, stay with the subject.

No one is ad homming you by disagreeing with you.

You are a Young Earther and Biblical Literalist who substitutes your opinion as fact, which it is not. I believe you also know that such belief is not necessary for salvation.

I love the Lord's word, read it daily, and have for many decades, many times through. The dating systems in science are constantly involving, improving, and pushing back man's time on earth. In other words, I love God's word but disagree only with your understanding of it in terms of Young Earth.

Well obviously you love only part of Gods Word! You blanket reject Gensis 1 and 2 as Gods accountof how He created the universe and substitutes it for mens pseudo science which has been empirically demonstrated to be false in setting dates and times.

No it is not necessary for salvation. But let me ask you , you said you believed in the character Jesus. does that mean you accept His existence on earth as written or as reinterpreted by others? Do you actually have a relationship with Him or just head knowledge based on your personal belief preferences?

But accepting Gods Word as written is necessary to grow as a child of God. Accepting evolution and billions of years compromises our relationship with God, for we then have to reinterpret many New Testament passages as not being accurate or merely stories when they are not written as such!

Do you believe that Jesus came as God in human flesh?