The Link Between IQ, Religiosity and Academic Subjects

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Your focus is on the intelligence displayed in resolving the problematic nature of a persons interaction with mortal people and perishable nature. But true intelligence is displayed in how we live out our relationship with an Eternal God.

Ah, OK - I smell equivocation again; the "No true Scotsman intelligence" fallacy... It's remarkable how often this dodge is used on these forums.

actually it is pretty objective to say that noone is perfect except God.

If I'd mentioned perfection that might be an apposite response; but I didn't. Perfection is an abstraction, belonging in the conceptual realm of Platonic forms.

Which is why the only hope of mankind is with a God who forgives and prefers to offer grace and mercy.

Judging by the bible, it's a forlorn hope.

you clearly did not understand what I said about God or you would not restate your strawman dichotomy between 2 abstractions.

OK, I notice you chose not to explain how my Q&A was incorrect... Never mind, let's have a closer look:

"There are no morals without God so we cannot posit God obeying a higher morality than Himself." - Here you deny the first horn of the dilemma, which is fine; so we move to the 'OR', the second horn:

"Nor are his commands arbitrary and moral simply because he commands them. They are an expression of who He is" - Here you seem to be saying that God's commands are moral because they're an expression of who He is, i.e. His nature. But this doesn't really help. Another syllogism will point out why:

P1. Actions consistent with God's nature are moral, while actions inconsistent with God's nature are immoral.
P2. God's actions are always consistent with God's nature.
P3. (from 1 & 2) God's actions are always moral.
P4. (from the bible) God has intentionally terminated the lives of innocent humans (e.g. infants).
C. It is moral to intentionally terminate the lives of innocent humans.

This seems to present another dilemma - the biblical commandments to man says that it is wrong to kill, i.e. immoral. So either the bible is self-contradictory or plain wrong, or God's actions are moral for God but not for us (i.e. do as I say, not as I do). If the latter is the case, God's nature is not the epitome of morality for us - do I smell moral relativism?

The circularity of the appeal to God's nature remains, for example:
Q. Why is honesty morally better than dishonesty?
A1. Because honesty reflects God's nature while dishonesty doesn't.
Q. So why is God's nature one of honesty rather than dishonesty?
A2. Because honesty is morally better than dishonesty.
Q. And why is honesty morally better than dishonesty?
A3. See A1.

Saying that God is morally perfect is a meaningless tautology if the standard you use to assess moral perfection is God. Saying 'God is good' is just saying 'God is God', and saying 'God's actions and commands are moral' is just saying 'God's actions & commands are his actions and commands'. It's vacuous and can be applied to anything, e.g:

My sister is morally perfect
Q. What does it mean to be morally perfect?
A. To have the moral character of my sister
Q. Why does being morally perfect mean having the moral character of my sister?
A. Because my sister is morally perfect...

Anything God does is good because, by definition, anything God does is good. That's what I mean by arbitrary.

Actually my understanding has to incorporate a level of freewill wrestling with Gods ways which has characterised my own walk with Him. In the end I realise that it would have been better if I had just done as he said in the first place.

Freewill is a different can of philosophical worms altogether.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Of all the stories about a Creator only the God shared by Jew and Christian exhibits the creativity and love of a true Creator.

Seriously? you're talking about the angry and vengeful God of the bible? Or are we supposed to embrace the horrors - whatever God does is 'good' by definition, right?

 

[tas8831]

Well, since this thread has been resurrected...

I know a lot of people who are involved in medicine, science and research, and while some are religious, others are not. It doesn't seem to make much difference to their abilities.

I would generally agree. However, there does seem to be a danger, at least among those of certain sects. I lived in a very religious and conservative part of the country for a couple of years back in the late 1980s. In the apartment building I lived in, 4 out of the 8 apartments were occupied by people attending the local Baptist college, including one, the folks just down the hall, in which the husband was attending the Seminary there. We became friends with this family (wife, husband, child) - all VERY religious. Their family doctor was a member of their creepily conservative church. The wife was having problems with headaches and random severe bloody noses, and other odd symptoms. Her religious doctor told her that it was due to sin in her life, and that she needed to pray more. We were eventually successful in getting her to see another doctor, who diagnosed her with Osler's syndrome.

 

[the iconoclast]

Hey, latch onto whatever you can, to make yourself feel better.

Hey hey you

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

I was given a result by following the Christian formula. I had an undeniable experience that effected me to my core.

How is this something to make myself feel better about and why should i not latch on this?

What psychological needs do you think are involved here?

Cheers. Ill take your advise and "challenge - you - until my heart is content"

Im no way near content with our discussions so far. Dont be shy and lets rock n roll

 

[bhsmte]

Hey hey you

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

I was given a result by following the Christian formula. I had an undeniable experience that effected me to my core.

How is this something to make myself feel better about and why should i not latch on this?

What psychological needs do you think are involved here?

Cheers. Ill take your advise and "challenge - you - until my heart is content"

Im no way near content with our discussions so far. Dont be shy and lets rock n roll

Cool story.