The Link Between IQ, Religiosity and Academic Subjects

[mindlight]

10 people? LOL!

Great sample size, compared to the worlds population.

More like in a world wide competition it is the religious who win the medals.

 

[bhsmte]

More like in a world wide competition it is the religious who win the medals.

LOL!

That would be like me claiming, of the worlds 10 most wanted criminals, 8 are theists, so this must mean theists are more criminal.

LOL

 

[mindlight]

LOL!

That would be like me claiming, of the worlds 10 most wanted criminals, 8 are theists, so this must mean theists are more criminal.

LOL

Actually just reviewed 10 most wanted fugitives. They appear to be mainly non religious or Muslim these days. So maybe atheists can claim the bad boy notoriety by way of compensation for their low iqs.;-)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Several studies have shown that there is a negative link between religiosity, IQ and academia. That is, the more intelligent and / or well-educated a person is, the less likely they are to be religious and vice-versa. Several arguments have been put forth to explain why this is, the most peopular being that people who have high IQs are better at critical thinking and therefore reject concepts which are based on intuition or cannot be emphirically tested.

The Bible PLAINLY SAYS, at least twice and maybe several times,

why the educated ones are not often Christian.

Critical thinking has nothing to do with it. Rather, pride, sinfulness, greed, and self-indulgence, and "loving the approval of man" instead of seeking God's Approval, for starters. i.e. in sin, in sinfulness, the wicked get more wicked daily.

they do not even think of turning to God to be healed, helped or saved. Instead, they continue serving demons.

 

[mindlight]

The Bible PLAINLY SAYS, at least twice and maybe several times,

why the educated ones are not often Christian.

Critical thinking has nothing to do with it. Rather, pride, sinfulness, greed, and self-indulgence, and "loving the approval of man" instead of seeking God's Approval, for starters. i.e. in sin, in sinfulness, the wicked get more wicked daily.

they do not even think of turning to God to be healed, helped or saved. Instead, they continue serving demons.

The way a mind is trained can twist it to evil hence the large numbers of nonreligious in modern academia. But those who get to the very top and who are the real geniuses have their heads above the forest and see more clearly.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The way a mind is trained can twist it to evil hence the large numbers of nonreligious in modern academia. But those who get to the very top and who are the real geniuses have their heads above the forest and see more clearly.

Not in this earth/ not in this world.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

The brightest people in the world are Christians. It is the ones who think they are smart but are actually only above average who are non religious.

Of 10 highest IQ’s on earth, at least 8 are Theists, at least 6 are Christians: Examiner.com. | Eternal Vigilance

Wow, 6 out of 10 of the world's best (culturally-biased) IQ test takers might be Christian.

 

[bhsmte]

More like in a world wide competition it is the religious who win the medals.

Hey, latch onto whatever you can, to make yourself feel better.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

All the claim about the highest IQs being theist tells me is that the author doesn't really understand what the IQ measure means - and, at best, it tells you that even some really clever people can be theist

When discussing group differences in IQ, we should, by definition, be looking at averages - that's what IQ is about. Claims about the highest IQs in the world are pretty meaningless unless you've randomly sampled the same (large) number of each group, correcting for or equalising all the relevant influences (poverty, education, culture, etc), which is practically impossible. This is why IQ is intended for, and most meaningful when, measuring relative differences within the population for which it has been calibrated.

The interesting question to me is why the surveys suggest that atheists have higher IQs - I suspect it's a question of sampling error and/or self-selection.

For example, assuming both atheist and theist groups start with average IQ and a normal distribution; if atheists are a minority and an equal percentage of the atheist and theist groups switch 'allegiances' in a given time, a greater percentage of atheists will then be ex-theists than theists will be ex-atheists (because of the difference in group sizes). If those that switch either way are more likely to have a higher than average IQ, that will push up the average IQ of the atheist group more than that of the theist group. So even if all other considerations are equal (and they won't be), if those that switch have slightly higher than average IQ, group size difference alone will cause the smaller group to increase IQ compared to the larger group.

But there are plenty of other reasons why such a difference might be found.

 

[mindlight]

All the claim about the highest IQs being theist tells me is that the author doesn't really understand what the IQ measure means - and, at best, it tells you that even some really clever people can be theist

When discussing group differences in IQ, we should, by definition, be looking at averages - that's what IQ is about. Claims about the highest IQs in the world are pretty meaningless unless you've randomly sampled the same (large) number of each group, correcting for or equalising all the relevant influences (poverty, education, culture, etc), which is practically impossible. This is why IQ is intended for, and most meaningful when, measuring relative differences within the population for which it has been calibrated.

The interesting question to me is why the surveys suggest that atheists have higher IQs - I suspect it's a question of sampling error and/or self-selection.

For example, assuming both atheist and theist groups start with average IQ and a normal distribution; if atheists are a minority and an equal percentage of the atheist and theist groups switch 'allegiances' in a given time, a greater percentage of atheists will then be ex-theists than theists will be ex-atheists (because of the difference in group sizes). If those that switch either way are more likely to have a higher than average IQ, that will push up the average IQ of the atheist group more than that of the theist group. So even if all other considerations are equal (and they won't be), if those that switch have slightly higher than average IQ, group size difference alone will cause the smaller group to increase IQ compared to the larger group.

But there are plenty of other reasons why such a difference might be found.

Yes small groups will benefit from this kind of statistical analysis. The numbers of intelligent Christians vastly outnumbers the numbers of intelligent atheists for the simple reason that there are about 2 billion more Christians than atheists. It is the same argument that is employed for the growth of Islam in terms of percentage growth. The number of Christians added each year is greater than the number of Muslims added.

The scientific method wants to quantify standard scores and measurements. This works across the broad mass of people. But when it comes to intelligence it is the rare and exceptional that makes the real difference and grants the real breakthroughs and there is nothing standard or indeed measurable about that until of course what it discovers is standard.

If only one man sees a thing then he is the only one who acts with intelligence regarding that thing. The measurement of the various levels of error in those who do not see is an irrelevant task as they are all blind. But however high you climb on the IQ hierarchy God will always be above all and the only one who truly acts with any intelligence.

In that sense the dumb fundamentalist with his rigid adherence to revealed truthes may act with more intelligence than those who call themselves intelligent and yet ignore the most intelligent Being of them all.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

In that sense the dumb fundamentalist with his rigid adherence to revealed truthes may act with more intelligence than those who call themselves intelligent and yet ignore the most intelligent Being of them all.

I don't think that follows; it may be wise to follow the dictates of a being you consider supremely powerful and all-seeing, but that doesn't make your actions themselves intelligent, particularly if you're below average intelligence.

Even for an advocate of Divine Command Theory intelligence is still likely to be required to apply the heuristics you've been given (or accepted) sensibly / appropriately (and DCT puts believers on an uncomfortable horn of the Euthyphro dilemma).

 

[Speedwell]

The Bible PLAINLY SAYS, at least twice and maybe several times,

why the educated ones are not often Christian.

Why? Maybe because it's getting about that you have to believe something really dumb about the literary genre of the Genesis creation stories to be a Christian. Maybe because in these latter days in this country, at least, Christianity has come to be more about promoting an ugly and un-American right wing political agenda than about the Gospel of Christ.

 

[mindlight]

I don't think that follows; it may be wise to follow the dictates of a being you consider supremely powerful and all-seeing, but that doesn't make your actions themselves intelligent, particularly if you're below average intelligence.

That expresses a misunderstanding of devotion. The actions themselves do not have to be perfect, God looks at why a person does what they do, he looks at their hearts.

Even for an advocate of Divine Command Theory intelligence is still likely to be required to apply the heuristics you've been given (or accepted) sensibly / appropriately (and DCT puts believers on an uncomfortable horn of the Euthyphro dilemma).

There is no goodness or righteousness without God nor can morality be considered separately from a reflection on the Divine. Our righteousness as Christians is imputed to us and only partially realised in actual expression

The Euthyphro dilemma is a false one. There are no morals without God so we cannot posit God obeying a higher morality than Himself. Nor are his commands arbitrary and moral simply because he commands them. They are an expression of who He is , an eternal character that does not change and which defines the structure of the universe he created and which reflects his wisdom. Indeed our obedience as creatures made in His image is in our own self interest also since it aligns us with our Creators design and purpose for us. The intelligent thing is to follow the Makers instructions and the foolish thing to disobey them.

People who consider themselves intelligent but do not obey the Makers instructions are not being that intelligent. Maybe that should be factored into IQ tests, but that would be mean that all atheists would score as below average intelligence for missing the entire point of intelligence.

 

[Speedwell]

That expresses a misunderstanding of devotion. The actions themselves do not have to be per People who consider themselves intelligent but do not obey the Makers instructions are not being that intelligent. Maybe that should be factored into IQ tests, but that would be mean that all atheists would score as below average intelligence for missing the entire point of intelligence.

And how are we to know the maker's instructions?

 

[mindlight]

And how are we to know the maker's instructions?

The bible and creeds of the church would be a good place to start

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That expresses a misunderstanding of devotion. The actions themselves do not have to be perfect, God looks at why a person does what they do, he looks at their hearts.

I wasn't talking about devotion, I was disputing your claim that a dumb person following the commands of some intelligent entity may act with more intelligence than someone more intelligent than them who ignores that entity.

There is no goodness or righteousness without God nor can morality be considered separately from a reflection on the Divine.

Unsubstantiated opinion. Most non-believers have a sense of goodness and righteousness and morality quite independent of God or the Divine. Even monkeys have a simple sense of fairness, societal rules, and transgression - i.e. right and wrong with respect to their rules.

The Euthyphro dilemma is a false one. There are no morals without God so we cannot posit God obeying a higher morality than Himself. Nor are his commands arbitrary and moral simply because he commands them. They are an expression of who He is , an eternal character that does not change and which defines the structure of the universe he created and which reflects his wisdom.

Simply denying it doesn't invalidate it. If good is what God commands and is an expression of God's nature, then good is either arbitrary or circular/tautological by definition:
Q. What is good?
A. What God commands.
Q. Why does He command it?
A1. We do not know and cannot say (i.e. to us it is arbitrary)
A2. Because it is good (i.e. because it is what God commands)

Indeed our obedience as creatures made in His image is in our own self interest also since it aligns us with our Creators design and purpose for us. The intelligent thing is to follow the Makers instructions and the foolish thing to disobey them.

Unsubstantiated assertion.

People who consider themselves intelligent but do not obey the Makers instructions are not being that intelligent. Maybe that should be factored into IQ tests, but that would be mean that all atheists would score as below average intelligence for missing the entire point of intelligence.

If your definition of intelligence is following orders without question, I suggest it is you that misses the point of intelligence.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The bible and creeds of the church would be a good place to start

How do you know that they are the maker's instructions? because they say so? because a lot of people think they are?

 

[mindlight]

I wasn't talking about devotion, I was disputing your claim that a dumb person following the commands of some intelligent entity may act with more intelligence than someone more intelligent than them who ignores that entity.

Your focus is on the intelligence displayed in resolving the problematic nature of a persons interaction with mortal people and perishable nature. But true intelligence is displayed in how we live out our relationship with an Eternal God. The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong.

Unsubstantiated opinion. Most non-believers have a sense of goodness and righteousness and morality quite independent of God or the Divine. Even monkeys have a simple sense of fairness, societal rules, and transgression - i.e. right and wrong with respect to their rules.

actually it is pretty objective to say that noone is perfect except God. Which is why the only hope of mankind is with a God who forgives and prefers to offer grace and mercy.

Simply denying it doesn't invalidate it. If good is what God commands and is an expression of God's nature, then good is either arbitrary or circular/tautological by definition:
Q. What is good?
A. What God commands.
Q. Why does He command it?
A1. We do not know and cannot say (i.e. to us it is arbitrary)
A2. Because it is good (i.e. because it is what God commands)

you clearly did not understand what I said about God or you would not restate your strawman dichotomy between 2 abstractions.

If your definition of intelligence is following orders without question, I suggest it is you that misses the point of intelligence.

Actually my understanding has to incorporate a level of freewill wrestling with Gods ways which has characterised my own walk with Him. In the end I realise that it would have been better if I had just done as he said in the first place. Maybe we are all a little foolish like that. But that God loves us enough to give us the latitude to disobey him on our way to wisdom is part of the essential dignity we have in being made in His image. But there are limits.

 

[mindlight]

How do you know that they are the maker's instructions? because they say so? because a lot of people think they are?

Being a creative person who designs things for a living I know what is the difference between a sustainable motivation for creativity and a false one. Basically you have to love what you do to sustain a pattern of creative interaction with the universe. Power, Greed, Revenge or whatever do not work as long term motivation patterns and can sabotage what you build. Of all the stories about a Creator only the God shared by Jew and Christian exhibits the creativity and love of a true Creator.

 

[Speedwell]

The bible and creeds of the church would be a good place to start

I prefer to start with Tradition, of which the Creeds are a part. But notwithstanding, there is a lot more than "makers instructions" in the Bible. Who is to tell us the meaning of all that?