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The Letter Kills ~ Instantly

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by AubreyM, Mar 30, 2021.

  1. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member

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    I want to comment that I really enjoy your writing style. There is a lot of warmth and intelligence to it, yet easy to read. We might not agree on all points, but I enjoy reading your posts and agree with many great points you have made. God bless.
     
  2. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Everyone should read [email protected]'s true and accurate posts. They describe the truth in Christ perfectly and should silence those Christians who rely on the Law.
     
  3. Nathan@work

    [email protected] Always ready :)

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    I shortened your quote to get to the point. I don't want you to think I did it to remove everything else you said.

    You cannot have Faith and the law.

    [Gal 3:12 ESV] But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."

    Since the law is not of Faith, then you have to choose which one you will have.

    If you do not turn from the law, then it means you are 'unrepentant' to Faith. Repentance simply means to turn away from.

    Christ fulfilled the law. Either you believe He did, or you continue to believe you do.

    [Gal 2:19 ESV] For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

    You cannot live to both the law and Faith.
     
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  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Please respond to the rest of that post because it already address what you said.

    Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”

    It these verses, Paul spoke about works of the law, which are not of faith, and contrasted them with the Book of the Law, which is of faith. He associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as the ones who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God, unlike the Mosaic Law. Likewise, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that is of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, yet your faith does not upholds God's law. So I agree that works of the law are not of faith, but I have not been saying that we should obey works of the law, rather I have been saying that we should obey God's law and that His law is of faith. Someone who refuses to follow God's laws, is expressing that they do not have faith in God to guide them.

    I agree that Christ fulfilled the law. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.

    It does not make sense to interpret this verse as Paul saying that we need to die to God's instructions for how to live for Him in order to be free to live for Him, but rather we would need to die to a law that was hindering us from living for God in order to be free to live for Him, namely the law of sin. Paul spoke about multiple categories of law, so if you don't bother to determine which law he was referring to, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand what he said end up making him out to be speaking against obeying God as if he were an enemy of God. Paul did not have the authority to countermand God and the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, if you think that Paul spoke against obeying God, then you should be quicker to disregard everything that he said than to disregard anything that God has commanded.
     
  5. Nathan@work

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    So there are many reasons why I come on here and discuss things. Not least of which is because a conversation can be had even if one person is not present. They can pick it back up when they get back.

    However, I like to treat these conversations as if I was in-person talking with someone. Meaning, it is very hard to respond to a long-drawn-out post of someones.

    I will ask you to forgive me if I do not hit all of your thoughts - all at the same time. When I come upon a long post, I respond to what catches my eye or any direct questions I do not think are rhetorical.

    With that said, Paul does not distinguish between the different laws that were given at Horeb to the Children of Israel. When Paul says "law" he means all of it.

    I honestly am trying to get a grasp on what it is you believe. I thought about it for a while and the best question I can think to ask in order for me to understand is the following.

    If the temple had not been destroyed, and they were still offering sacrifices today, would you believe it was right for us as believers in Christ, to go offer sacrifices as well?
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I was not asking you to reply to ever point that I make, but my problem was that you continued to speak about the law not being of faith while ignoring that I had already addressed that point.

    Romans 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

    Can you grant that that there is a law that is of works and a law that is of faith and that the above verse contrasts them?

    Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

    Can you grant that there is a Law of God and a law of sin and that the above verse contrasts them?

    While the Bible uses distinct Hebrew words to refer to different subcategories of law that were given to Moses, neither works of the law nor the law of sin were given to Moses, but rather they are distinct. The phrase "works of the law" has no definitive article in the Greek, so it is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as THE Law of Moses, but rather Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences that were being taught that Gentiles needed obey in order to become justified. For example, in Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a law that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles, however, this is not a law that is found anywhere in the Law of Moses and is therefore a man-made law. It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, and by doing so he was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith and not by works of the law.

    The law of sin is not so much a list of rules as as it is a principle or an evil inclination. Paul described it in Romans 7 a law that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good of obeying God's law that he delighted in obeying. In Romans 7:7, God's law is not sinful, but it is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying God's law are referring to the law of sin, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.

    In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow, which involved making sin offerings (Numbers 6) and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for and join the purification rites of others who had taken a similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Mosaic Law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Hebrews 8:4, it speaks about offerings that were still being made in accordance with the Mosaic Law. Furthermore, it says that Jesus would not be a priest if he were still on earth, and if the Mosaic Law were no longer in effect, then it would have no power to do prevent that. So offerings did not stop with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but only stopped because of the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophesies of a time when a third temple will be built and when offerings will resume, so those laws have not gone anywhere (Ezekiel 44-46).
     
  7. Nathan@work

    [email protected] Always ready :)

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    Thanks. It will be tomorrow before I can answer in full. But I will. You have helped me see your position very clearly.
     
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  8. Nathan@work

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    Upon further discussion and thought, I think maybe the title of your thread should be “The letter kills - instantly”.

    I find it all to similar as what happened in the Garden.

    They ate, they died, and did not even understand what had happened to them. Oblivious to the death that had come to them.
     
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  9. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, it seems like you guys are trying to rewrite your will for God instead of allowing God to be God. You can not force your will on Him, He is unchanging. There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings about Pauls writings, but I don’t think there is any interest in the Truth here. Even if your interpretation of Paul’s writing are accurate (they are not) does what Paul say outweigh what our Savior asks? John 14:15 John 15:10

    It appears God identifies His people with those who keep the commandments

    Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Considering what seems to be at stake and honestly how disrespectful God’s laws are being tossed around on these forums, for your sake, I hope you’re correct, but the scriptures clearly tells another story.

    Revelations 22:

    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
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  10. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    If you see Jesus and Paul as in disagreement, you are in misunderstanding.
    Not in the NT, where he identifies them with faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with his justice.

    Orthodox Jews keep the commandments and deny Jesus Christ. They are not his people.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  11. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member

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    I do not not see Jesus and Paul are in disagreement and I stated that, maybe you missed it.

    You must have missed these quotes too by Mark in the New Testament.

    Revelations 14:12 and Revelations 22:14.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  12. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Grammar police: that's either "must have" or "must've".

    You know as well as I do that it doesn't have to be in God's own hand to have the authority of God.
    If you aren't setting Jesus and Paul against themselves, are you setting God's word written against itself?

    Jesus is God, and he gave us only two commandments (Matthew 22:37-40), nor did he say that we were to study the Mosaic code to know how to keep them. They are written on our hearts, and we don't need another written code, in stone or otherwise, to know how to keep them as God would have us keep them. They're not complicated. . .it's freedom in Christ.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  13. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member

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    You left out the next verse after Jesus stated the greatest commandments.

    Mathew 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    The greatest commandments are Gods Ten summarized and we show love to our Savior when we obey commandments 1-4 and show love to our neighbor when we obey commandments 5-10.

    God bless
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  14. Freth

    Freth Seventh-day Adventist

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    I don't think it's working.

    1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    THE OLD COVENANT SHADOW LAWS FOR REMISSION OF SIN AND DENYING CHRISTS SACRIFICE

    According to God's Word, under the old covenant there were many "shadow laws" that were all prophetic in nature pointing to things to come. So these shadows were to teach us or prophecy to us of those things to which they pointed to under Gods plan of salvation for mankind under the new covenant . So under the old covenant for example the "shadow laws" for remission of sins pointed to the coming of the Messiah in Christ and his work on our behalf under the new covenant based on better promises according to Hebrews 8:1-6.

    The earthly Sanctuary along with the Levitical Priesthood, the laws for remission of sins, animal sacrifices and sin offerings and Feasts all pointing to Jesus and God's work of salvation for mankind on behalf of man. So under the old covenant God's people looked forward in faith to the coming of the Messiah while in the new covenant today God's people look back to the coming of Christ and the fulfillment of these prophetic laws which are now fulfilled and continued in the body of Christ to which they all pointed to *Colossians 2:17; John 1:29; Hebrews 8:1-6; Hebrews 9:1-17; Hebrews 10:1-17.

    What this means for us today under the new covenant is that there is no more "shadow laws" of an earthly Sanctuary, no more laws of the Levitical Priesthood, no more animal sacrifices and sin offerings which are now fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. Jesus is now our great high Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25 ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:2 who is also God's perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:14-24; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 10:10-12; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 4:10.

    Jesus as our true sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all *Hebrews 10:10 are also foretold in the "shadow laws" of the Passover and Feast of unleavened bread where it is written in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 [7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:[8], Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. As can be shown in this scripture Paul is not telling us to continue keeping the old covenant laws for remission of sin in continuing to practice animal sacrifices for sin in the new covenant. This would be to deny the very Christ and God's sacrifice for sin once and for all *Hebrews 10:10.

    These scriptures are all telling us that what the shadow Feast of the Passover pointed to and that is as Colossians 2:17 says is the body of Christ. The Passover was the shadow pointing to the body of Christ that has now arrived and is fulfilled in Christ and continued in Christ in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. Paul is saying we keep the Passover today by accepting Christ as our Passover accepting Jesus as our lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Not by going back to the old covenant laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings to which all pointed to the body of Christ.

    To go back to animal sacrifices and sin offerings would be to deny the very Christ and to which these old covenant "shadow laws" pointed to and are continued in which is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36 once for all (Hebrews 10:10)

    Hope this is helpful
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  16. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are correct. I was working out at the time I wrote it and have been up since 12:30am. Thank you for catching that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    "Letter of the Law" -

    1. Luke 16:17
      But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
    2. Romans 2:27
      And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law?

    Rom 2 - with more detail
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    In Romans to "hearers only" are condemned as merely having the letter - but the DOERS of the Law in Rom 2:13 are approved of as those under the New Covenant condition of Rom 2:14,15 and Rom 2:26-29

    The Letter kills as Paul points out in Rom 3:19-20 because "all have sinned" Rom 3:23 - so they are hearers .. not doers.

    And so the Law of God continues to condemn all to death -- the second death as Paul points out in Rom 3:19-20 and Rom 6:23

    No life apart from the Gospel.

    1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
     
  18. Nathan@work

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    So here is what I know. There is a contrast provided in the 'laws' spoken of, but the contrast is not of two different laws - but the same law viewed from different angles.

    The law of works is the way Jews would see the law.

    The law of Faith is the way believers would see the law.

    Jews saw the law, much like you and some others, as requirements to do - or at least try to do - in order to show righteousness. Some thought they actually earned righteousness, others just used it as proof of righteousness in them.

    Believers look at the law and see the righteousness of God. We see that the law demands perfection and that we have not, could not, and will not ever be that perfect. What it does is then turn our focus onto Christ and His perfection that was done for us.

    It takes Faith to trust that Christ fulfilled the law because we could not.

    In regards to Peter, what we know is that he lived as a Gentile - and then was rebuked by Paul for turning his back on that in favor of pretending to live like a Jew when around the Jews.

    Peter did not just associate with them - he lived like them.

    [Gal 2:11-14 ESV]

    But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

    For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

    But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"


    Peter stood condemned because he had turned from Faith to the law in hypocrisy. What he was doing was deceitful and it led other believers astray.

    Anyways, this starts to turn the topic of the thread off course so I will stop here.
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    The New Covenant is not conditioned on performance.

    It is a unilateral covenant, from God to man, requiring no performance of man.
    Faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ is the only gateway of entrance.
    And doers of the Law are likewise condemned. . ."all you rely on the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10)
    God's command is to believe in the One he has sent.
    What matters is faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus' New Covenant commands are two: to love God and to love our neighbor.
    That's what matters in the New Covenant.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  20. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    I agree with most of what you say, however, I'm trying to understand why you said this:
    I take it that you're referring to Rom. 3:27 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith."

    The way I read this is that Paul is using a literary device called "a play on words." He is using the term "law" which usually is a reference to the Pentateuch, but using it to explain a principle of operation, as is the definition of "law" in the phrase "laws of physics." So when he says "law of works," he means principle of works, and "law of faith" means principle of faith. It is the same as when he says he has a "law of sin" working in his members, he means there is a principle of sin in operation.

    So in reference to how we relate to God, if a person is relying his own acts of obedience to be acceptable in God's sight, then that person is said to be "under law." The "law of works" would be a way of thinking, or worldview, about how to relate to God. Someone working the "law of works" to become accepted is someone relying on his obedience to the written code for his salvation.

    But if a person doesn't rely on his acts of obedience to the law, but rather relies only on Christ for his acceptance, he is said to be "under grace." So his worldview, or way of thinking about relating to God, is radically different than the person who is "under law." Someone working the "law of faith" to be accepted by God is someone relying on the works of Christ (His death and resurrection) to be made acceptable in God's sight.

    Perhaps you mean the same thing, I don't know. If so, please forgive my misunderstanding. It just looked to me like you were fixing the definition of "law" to be the written code in this context.
     
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