The Letter Kills ~ Instantly

Nathan@work

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In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equate with obeying him. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is also an example of obedience to God, and there are many other verses that associate faith with obedience and unbelief with disobedience.

In Romans 10:4-10, Jesus is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. This faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what we are submitting to when we confess that Jesus is Lord.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as the ones who are living in obedience to the Mosaic law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith, unlike the Mosaic Law. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it.



The verses I that I cited said nothing about needing to obey the Mosaic Law perfectly. The Mosaic Law came with instructions for what to do when people sinned, so perfect obedience was never a requirement for us. Repentance does not change the fact that we have already failed to have perfect obedience, so there would be no point in repentance if we needed prefect obedience, and the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that it is not a requirement. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that the Mosaic Law is not to difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Thinking that we need to have perfect obedience would mean that God essentially gave the Mosaic Law with the goal of cursing His children, which is expressing an extremely poor opinion of God, when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not discouraging them from trying to keep the Mosaic Law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of obeying it more consistently. If we break any law and become a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and to return to obedience through faith. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they would still would not earn eternal life because it was never given for that purpose.



Again, thinking that God gave the Mosaic Law in order to bring death to His children is expressing an extremely poor opinion of God. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20 is brings life for obedience and death for disobedience, not the other way around. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that message, so it would be absurd to think that God wanted His people to do that so that He could bring death to us and to think that in order to avoid death we are better off living in complete disobedience to God as if God doesn't want to be obeyed and will punish anyone who repents and tries to obey Him.

God wants us. Not our obedience. Can the two be separate? Yes.

There are many who ‘obey’ what they think about God. In their minds, they are giving their obedience to Him.

What God wants is us. What James is pointing out is simply that obedience is a result of God having us.

For example, if I cut my finger and I start to bleed, I know I have blood in my body.

What I do not need to do, is prove to myself or anyone else, that I have blood in my body by cutting my finger.

Good works show what is inside of us. Bad works show what is inside of us.

The Mosaic law was given specifically to Israel for a specific purpose. Had God wanted all to have the Mosaic law, He could have done it. He did not.

Why? Because it was to show us His Son - the only One Who knew God. No one else knows God except His Son.

His Son came from the lineage in which the Mosaic law was given. It was all to point to Him.

Christ points us back to God, showing us our sinfulness and His righteousness. In this way God now ‘has’ us in Christ. It is in this way we are His.

Our Faith, the only Faith, in us shows this by our love - works of love. Love is greater than the Mosaic law, to live under it is not true obedience because God wants more.

He can only have what He wants when we live by Faith. The Mosaic law is not Faith.
 
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Ayenew

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Hello you and have you ever came across this scripture?

2 Corinthians 3:6 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.​

What does the word of God, kill?

Why does the letter killeth?

What is the letter killing?

Why would the letter kill the spirit if that is the probably effect?

Have you ever noticed this verse in the text, now in Hebrews 4:12 it talks about how the bible (letter) word of God, is sharper than the sharpest two-edge sword.

Why?

Why is it that the word of God can be used, as though a an medieval solider equipped with a sword which is drawn to the neck of his enemy ready to slice the neck at any given moment?

Mishandled understanding?

Lost in translation, and teachings from others who believe they know but do not know truly what the word of God is saying?

Why does the spirit give life?

How come the spirit is the only way to gain life?

How do you live by the spirit?

Who gives the spirit?

Why do we even need the spirit?

Does the spirit transform us?

Does anyone have any answers to these questions!?
It doesn't mean the letter (word of God) kills, like a sword. It does mean that life is not in the letters (the rituals or the lifeless practices) but the spirit in the word. It's like what is written in John 4:23-24.
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
 
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Clare73

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Hello you and have you ever came across this scripture?

2 Corinthians 3:6 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

What does the word of God, kill?

Why does the letter killeth?

What is the letter killing?

Why would the letter kill the spirit if that is the probably effect?

Have you ever noticed this verse in the text, now in Hebrews 4:12 it talks about how the bible (letter) word of God, is sharper than the sharpest two-edge sword.

Why?

Why is it that the word of God can be used, as though a an medieval solider equipped with a sword which is drawn to the neck of his enemy ready to slice the neck at any given moment?

Mishandled understanding?

Lost in translation, and teachings from others who believe they know but do not know truly what the word of God is saying?

Why does the spirit give life?

How come the spirit is the only way to gain life?

How do you live by the spirit?

Who gives the spirit?

Why do we even need the spirit?

Does the spirit transform us?

Does anyone have any answers to these questions!?
Well, first of all, it has nothing to do with an outward (by the letter) vs. an inward (by the Holy Spirit) obedience, a counterfeit obedience vs. a genuine obedience, as has become commonly thought.
It has to do with law vs. grace, works vs. faith, Old Covenant vs. New Covenant.

The "letter" is the law, the written code, it is not Scripture in general.

The law kills because it curses all those who rely on it (Galatians 3:10), because it must be kept perfectly to make one righteous before God, no one can do that, so it condemns every one to death--it kills.
That's life under the Old Covenant, righteousness by works, which is impossible = judgment.

Under the New Covenant, we are not made righteous by law keeping, but by the new birth of the Holy Spirit, where through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, we are justified--declared "not guilty" by God, made right with his justice, and Jesus' righteousness is reckoned, accounted, imputed to us.
That's life under the New Covenant, righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ = salvation.

The 'letter' vs. the "Spirit" has nothing to do with counterfeit vs. genuine anything.
 
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Soyeong

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God wants us. Not our obedience. Can the two be separate? Yes.

There are many who ‘obey’ what they think about God. In their minds, they are giving their obedience to Him.

What God wants is us. What James is pointing out is simply that obedience is a result of God having us.

For example, if I cut my finger and I start to bleed, I know I have blood in my body.

What I do not need to do, is prove to myself or anyone else, that I have blood in my body by cutting my finger.

Good works show what is inside of us. Bad works show what is inside of us.

The Mosaic law was given specifically to Israel for a specific purpose. Had God wanted all to have the Mosaic law, He could have done it. He did not.

Why? Because it was to show us His Son - the only One Who knew God. No one else knows God except His Son.

His Son came from the lineage in which the Mosaic law was given. It was all to point to Him.

Christ points us back to God, showing us our sinfulness and His righteousness. In this way God now ‘has’ us in Christ. It is in this way we are His.

Our Faith, the only Faith, in us shows this by our love - works of love. Love is greater than the Mosaic law, to live under it is not true obedience because God wants more.

He can only have what He wants when we live by Faith. The Mosaic law is not Faith.

If God did not want our obedience, then He would not have given any commands and would not have called for His people to repent and obey them all throughout the Bible. While I agree that what God wants is a relationship with us, God's laws are His instructions for how have a relationship with Him. The Mosaic Covenant is often described as being a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so the the specific purpose that Mosaic Law was given to Israel was to them how to have a relationship with God so that they would be equipped to be a light and a blessing to the nations through teaching the nations how to have a relationship with God (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:6). So God wanted all to follow the Mosaic Law.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His ways that he might experientially know Him. Likewise, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God put false ways far from him and to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and in 2 Peter 3:15-18, not being carried away by the error of lawless people down the path towards destruction is contrasted with growing in grace and knowledge of Jesus. God's ways are all aspects of His nature, such as righteous, blameless, merciful, pure, humble, light, perfect, true, liberty, and gentleness (2 Samuel 22:21-37) and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7).

In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so when we delight in testifying about God's steadfast love, justice, righteousness, and other aspects of His nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are experiencing who God, or in other words, we are growing in a relationship with God through gaining experiential knowledge of Him, and are growing in a relationship with the Son, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commands, so again they are God's instructions for how to experientially know Jesus. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen now know him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law is His instructions for how to have a relationship with Jesus, and a relationship with Jesus is required for salvation.

So obedience to the Mosaic Law is not the result of having a relationship with Christ, but rather it is the means of having a relationship with Him. Everything in the Mosaic Law points to Christ because it testifies about how to have a relationship with him, and as his followers we should live in a way that points to Christ by following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law (1 Peter 2:21-22). Furthermore, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, w which was in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so love is not greater than it, but rather love is essentially what it is about how to do. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so obedience to it is the way to live by faith. By expressing Christ's nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are testifying about what we believe about the nature of who Christ is, or in other words, we are believing in him and are putting our faith in his nature as the model for how to rightly live our lives.
 
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Well, first of all, it has nothing to do with an outward (by the letter) vs. an inward (by the Holy Spirit) obedience, a counterfeit obedience vs. a genuine obedience, as has become commonly thought.
It has to do with law vs. grace, works vs. faith, Old Covenant vs. New Covenant.

The "letter" is the law, the written code, it is not Scripture in general.

The law kills because it curses all those who rely on it (Galatians 3:10), because it must be kept perfectly to make one righteous before God, no one can do that, so it condemns every one to death--it kills.
That's life under the Old Covenant, righteousness by works, which is impossible = judgment.

Under the New Covenant, we are not made righteous by law keeping, but by the new birth of the Holy Spirit, where through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, we are justified--declared "not guilty" by God, made right with his justice, and Jesus' righteousness is reckoned, accounted, imputed to us.
That's life under the New Covenant, righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ = salvation.

The 'letter' vs. the "Spirit" has nothing to do with counterfeit vs. genuine anything.

Everyone needs to read Clare73's post! (above)
 
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pescador

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If God did not want our obedience, then He would not have given any commands and would not have called for His people to repent and obey them all throughout the Bible. While I agree that what God wants is a relationship with us, God's laws are His instructions for how have a relationship with Him. The Mosaic Covenant is often described as being a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so the the specific purpose that Mosaic Law was given to Israel was to them how to have a relationship with God so that they would be equipped to be a light and a blessing to the nations through teaching the nations how to have a relationship with God (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:6). So God wanted all to follow the Mosaic Law.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His ways that he might experientially know Him. Likewise, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God put false ways far from him and to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and in 2 Peter 3:15-18, not being carried away by the error of lawless people down the path towards destruction is contrasted with growing in grace and knowledge of Jesus. God's ways are all aspects of His nature, such as righteous, blameless, merciful, pure, humble, light, perfect, true, liberty, and gentleness (2 Samuel 22:21-37) and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7).

In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so when we delight in testifying about God's steadfast love, justice, righteousness, and other aspects of His nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are experiencing who God, or in other words, we are growing in a relationship with God through gaining experiential knowledge of Him, and are growing in a relationship with the Son, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commands, so again they are God's instructions for how to experientially know Jesus. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen now know him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law is His instructions for how to have a relationship with Jesus, and a relationship with Jesus is required for salvation.

So obedience to the Mosaic Law is not the result of having a relationship with Christ, but rather it is the means of having a relationship with Him. Everything in the Mosaic Law points to Christ because it testifies about how to have a relationship with him, and as his followers we should live in a way that points to Christ by following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law (1 Peter 2:21-22). Furthermore, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, w which was in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so love is not greater than it, but rather love is essentially what it is about how to do. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so obedience to it is the way to live by faith. By expressing Christ's nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are testifying about what we believe about the nature of who Christ is, or in other words, we are believing in him and are putting our faith in his nature as the model for how to rightly live our lives.

Do you have knowledge of the Bible, because it doesn't seem that way. You can't isolate verses from 11 different "books" of the Bible, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament, and string them together into one post to prove your point.

The Old Testament was written by many different authors who lived at different times and in different paces and under different circumstances. The New Testament was also written by different authors who lived at different times and in different paces and under different circumstances. If you have a point to make you must take these facts into consideration.

Deuteronomy says something different than Isaiah, that says something different than Psalms that says something different than Exodus that says something different than 2 Peter that says something different than 2 Samuel that says something different than Deuteronomy that says something different than Psalms that says something different than Jeremiah that says something different than Hebrews that says something different than 1 John that says something different than John that says something different than Matthew that says something different than 1 Peter.

Yet you string quotes from all these separate "books", written by different people at different times in different places to different people who were living under different circumstances to prove -- what?

Please read my signature (below) carefully...
 
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Nathan@work

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If God did not want our obedience, then He would not have given any commands and would not have called for His people to repent and obey them all throughout the Bible. While I agree that what God wants is a relationship with us, God's laws are His instructions for how have a relationship with Him. The Mosaic Covenant is often described as being a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so the the specific purpose that Mosaic Law was given to Israel was to them how to have a relationship with God so that they would be equipped to be a light and a blessing to the nations through teaching the nations how to have a relationship with God (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:6). So God wanted all to follow the Mosaic Law.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His ways that he might experientially know Him. Likewise, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God put false ways far from him and to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and in 2 Peter 3:15-18, not being carried away by the error of lawless people down the path towards destruction is contrasted with growing in grace and knowledge of Jesus. God's ways are all aspects of His nature, such as righteous, blameless, merciful, pure, humble, light, perfect, true, liberty, and gentleness (2 Samuel 22:21-37) and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7).

In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so when we delight in testifying about God's steadfast love, justice, righteousness, and other aspects of His nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are experiencing who God, or in other words, we are growing in a relationship with God through gaining experiential knowledge of Him, and are growing in a relationship with the Son, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commands, so again they are God's instructions for how to experientially know Jesus. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen now know him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law is His instructions for how to have a relationship with Jesus, and a relationship with Jesus is required for salvation.

So obedience to the Mosaic Law is not the result of having a relationship with Christ, but rather it is the means of having a relationship with Him. Everything in the Mosaic Law points to Christ because it testifies about how to have a relationship with him, and as his followers we should live in a way that points to Christ by following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law (1 Peter 2:21-22). Furthermore, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, w which was in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so love is not greater than it, but rather love is essentially what it is about how to do. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so obedience to it is the way to live by faith. By expressing Christ's nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are testifying about what we believe about the nature of who Christ is, or in other words, we are believing in him and are putting our faith in his nature as the model for how to rightly live our lives.

God doesn’t want a relationship, He doesn’t want obedience - He wants us.

All of us. Nothing less.

The law was given to Israel to point toward Gods Son.

It was given to keep them separate from all the other nations.

The law is not of Faith. Faith is what God wants, it is what He has shown is perfect before Him.

A person either lives by Faith, or the law. They cannot live by both.
 
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Clare73

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Do you have knowledge of the Bible, because it doesn't seem that way. You can't isolate verses from 11 different "books" of the Bible, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament, and string them together into one post to prove your point.

The Old Testament was written by many different authors who lived at different times and in different paces and under different circumstances. The New Testament was also written by different authors who lived at different times and in different paces and under different circumstances. If you have a point to make you must take these facts into consideration.

Deuteronomy says something different than Isaiah, that says something different than Psalms that says something different than Exodus that says something different than 2 Peter that says something different than 2 Samuel that says something different than Deuteronomy that says something different than Psalms that says something different than Jeremiah that says something different than Hebrews that says something different than 1 John that says something different than John that says something different than Matthew that says something different than 1 Peter.

Yet you string quotes from all these separate "books", written by different people at different times in different places to different people who were living under different circumstances to prove -- what?

Please read my signature (below) carefully...
To see how the "logic" works, you can find it presented here and addressed, part by part:
post #178, Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is...
 
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Soyeong

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Do you have knowledge of the Bible, because it doesn't seem that way. You can't isolate verses from 11 different "books" of the Bible, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament, and string them together into one post to prove your point.

The Old Testament was written by many different authors who lived at different times and in different paces and under different circumstances. The New Testament was also written by different authors who lived at different times and in different paces and under different circumstances. If you have a point to make you must take these facts into consideration.

Deuteronomy says something different than Isaiah, that says something different than Psalms that says something different than Exodus that says something different than 2 Peter that says something different than 2 Samuel that says something different than Deuteronomy that says something different than Psalms that says something different than Jeremiah that says something different than Hebrews that says something different than 1 John that says something different than John that says something different than Matthew that says something different than 1 Peter.

Yet you string quotes from all these separate "books", written by different people at different times in different places to different people who were living under different circumstances to prove -- what?

Please read my signature (below) carefully...

Do you think I would be better off if I didn't thoroughly cite from the Bible and couldn't show how what I said was derived from it? You act like that is somehow a negative thing. One of the great things about the Bible is that it is a cohesive whole even though it comes from different authors who lived in difference places and under different circumstances. A good hermeneutical practice is to use one passage from the Bible to help us to correct understand other passages, so having multiple points of reference in regard to the same topic helps to bring clarity. If you think that the context of the circumstances under which something is written affects how it should be correctly understood, then by all means please do so, but simply pointing out that different books of the Bible were written under different circumstances does not undermine how I used the verses.
 
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Soyeong

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God doesn’t want a relationship, He doesn’t want obedience - He wants us.

All of us. Nothing less.

The law was given to Israel to point toward Gods Son.

It was given to keep them separate from all the other nations.

Do you think that God can give laws for how to give all of ourselves to Him? The Mosaic Law points toward God's Son because everything in it testifies about who he is and how to give ourselves to him, and as his followers, we should live in a way that points toward him by obeying the Mosaic Law rather than a way that points away from him.

In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to follow the instructions that God gave for how to fulfill those roles and are also called to be separate from other nations. It is contradictory for a Gentile to want to become part of a holy nation while wanting nothing to do with following God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy nation.

The law is not of Faith. Faith is what God wants, it is what He has shown is perfect before Him.

A person either lives by Faith, or the law. They cannot live by both.

God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and obedience to any set of instructions that are claimed to be for our own good is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so God's law is of faith. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works. In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Romans 16:25-26, Paul's Gospel and the preaching of Christ was to bring about the obedience of faith. In Deuteronomy 28:1, it speaks about faithfully obeying the voice of the Lord. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (2 Samuel 7:28, Nehemiah 9:13, Psalms 19:7, 18:30, 33:4, 111:7, 119:30, 42, 75, 86, 99, 138, 142, 151, 160) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver to rightly guide us, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

In Deuteronomy 32:51, Moses broke faith with God because he did not obey what God commanded him to do. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Joshua 7:1 and 1 Chronicles 2:7, Israel broke faith by not doing what God commanded. In 1 Chronicles 10:13, Saul broke faith because he did not keep the command of the Lord. In 2 Chronicles 33:19, sin is equated with faithlessness. In Jeremiah 3:6-14, Israel was faithless because they did not obey God. In Ezekiel 14:13, sin is equated with acting faithlessly. In Psalms 119:158, David said that he looked at the faithless with disgust because they did not keep God's commands. In Romans 1:29-32 and Revelation 21:8, being faithless is associated with actions that are in disobedience to God. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being corrupted of mind and disqualified in regard to the faith. So there are many verses that associate faith with obedience to God's law and unbelief with disobedience.
 
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Nathan@work

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Do you think that God can give laws for how to give all of ourselves to Him? The Mosaic Law points toward God's Son because everything in it testifies about who he is and how to give ourselves to him, and as his followers, we should live in a way that points toward him by obeying the Mosaic Law rather than a way that points away from him.

In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to follow the instructions that God gave for how to fulfill those roles and are also called to be separate from other nations. It is contradictory for a Gentile to want to become part of a holy nation while wanting nothing to do with following God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy nation.



God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and obedience to any set of instructions that are claimed to be for our own good is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so God's law is of faith. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works. In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Romans 16:25-26, Paul's Gospel and the preaching of Christ was to bring about the obedience of faith. In Deuteronomy 28:1, it speaks about faithfully obeying the voice of the Lord. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (2 Samuel 7:28, Nehemiah 9:13, Psalms 19:7, 18:30, 33:4, 111:7, 119:30, 42, 75, 86, 99, 138, 142, 151, 160) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver to rightly guide us, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

In Deuteronomy 32:51, Moses broke faith with God because he did not obey what God commanded him to do. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Joshua 7:1 and 1 Chronicles 2:7, Israel broke faith by not doing what God commanded. In 1 Chronicles 10:13, Saul broke faith because he did not keep the command of the Lord. In 2 Chronicles 33:19, sin is equated with faithlessness. In Jeremiah 3:6-14, Israel was faithless because they did not obey God. In Ezekiel 14:13, sin is equated with acting faithlessly. In Psalms 119:158, David said that he looked at the faithless with disgust because they did not keep God's commands. In Romans 1:29-32 and Revelation 21:8, being faithless is associated with actions that are in disobedience to God. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being corrupted of mind and disqualified in regard to the faith. So there are many verses that associate faith with obedience to God's law and unbelief with disobedience.

I think I just now realized the issue that is encountered so often in discussion of this topic.

It’s Faith. The problem is a lack of understanding about Faith.

Faith is not opposed to Gods laws at all, but it replaces a written set of law.

The problem many encounter is that they think the same laws, written word for word in the Old Testament, are now written on our heart.

Faith takes all of it one step further. Faith is the knowledge of Gods laws deeper than any written form.

Faith is knowledge enough to take your son to a mountain and place him on an altar to kill him.

Abraham didn’t have a script to read from when walking by Faith. The written Mosaic law was brought in to the Nation of Israel to specifically confine them - guide them - until the Messiah came.

That law, that covenant, was fulfilled when Jesus died. It was completed.

If your under that written law, your not walking by Faith.
 
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Do you think I would be better off if I didn't thoroughly cite from the Bible and couldn't show how what I said was derived from it? You act like that is somehow a negative thing. One of the great things about the Bible is that it is a cohesive whole even though it comes from different authors who lived in difference places and under different circumstances. A good hermeneutical practice is to use one passage from the Bible to help us to correct understand other passages, so having multiple points of reference in regard to the same topic helps to bring clarity. If you think that the context of the circumstances under which something is written affects how it should be correctly understood, then by all means please do so, but simply pointing out that different books of the Bible were written under different circumstances does not undermine how I used the verses.

That's your opinion, but I disagree. Jumping all over the place, citing parts of books out of order, from both Testaments, is poor exegesis.

In case you failed to read my "signature", here it is: Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

There is no doubt in my mind that you have interpreted text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases, selecting verses from "all over the map" to create your own interpretation. For example, Psalm 14:1b says, "There is no God". So that proves there is no God, according to your logic, right?
 
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Faith is not opposed to Gods laws at all, but it replaces a written set of law.

I cited many verses that show that our faith is expressed through our obedience to God's law, while nowhere does the Bible say that our faith replace our obedience to it. If our obedience to God's law were for our own good, then it would have been about trying to earn favor with him, but it is for our own good, so it is instead about trusting God to rightly guide us. If we think that God can be trusted to rightly guide us through His laws, then we will follow his guidance, while refusing to follow God's guidance would be expressing a lack of faith in Him, so faith is not something that we do instead of following God's guidance. God's righteous laws teach us about His righteousness, so when we do what is righteous in obedience to them, we are testifying about what we believe is true about who God is, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and we are putting our faith in Him by using His righteousness as the model for how we should live our lives.

The problem many encounter is that they think the same laws, written word for word in the Old Testament, are now written on our heart.

Changing the medium upon which God's eternal law is written does not change the content of what it instructs us to do, but rather the New Covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts so that we will obey it. If the laws for how to testify about God's righteousness were to change when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but it is eternal, so any laws that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under.

Faith takes all of it one step further. Faith is the knowledge of Gods laws deeper than any written form.

Nowhere does the Bible say that.

Faith is knowledge enough to take your son to a mountain and place him on an altar to kill him.

Abraham didn’t have a script to read from when walking by Faith.

Faith leads us to follow God's instructions in regard to what we should do whether it by to take specific actions or to follow His laws. In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, so this was all done by faith.

The written Mosaic law was brought in to the Nation of Israel to specifically confine them - guide them - until the Messiah came.

Did the Messiah go around announcing to people that the Mosaic Law has been abolished, that are no longer confined by it, and that they no longer needed to repent, or the opposite?

That law, that covenant, was fulfilled when Jesus died. It was completed.

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Mosaic Law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so you should not interpret that as essentially meaning the same thing. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.

If your under that written law, your not walking by Faith.

Nowhere does the Bible say this, but rather I cited many verses that say the opposite.
 
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Simply put we are unable to obey God's law and its precepts. So we find ourselves under God's judgement and God's justice condemns us. Thus we need God's mercy or grace. We need Christ's work on the cross and his perfect atonement:

"The sting of death is sin. And the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through the Lord Jesus Christ” - 1 Corinthians 15.
 
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I cited many verses that show that our faith is expressed through our obedience to God's law, while nowhere does the Bible say that our faith replace our obedience to it. If our obedience to God's law were for our own good, then it would have been about trying to earn favor with him, but it is for our own good, so it is instead about trusting God to rightly guide us. If we think that God can be trusted to rightly guide us through His laws, then we will follow his guidance, while refusing to follow God's guidance would be expressing a lack of faith in Him, so faith is not something that we do instead of following God's guidance. God's righteous laws teach us about His righteousness, so when we do what is righteous in obedience to them, we are testifying about what we believe is true about who God is, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and we are putting our faith in Him by using His righteousness as the model for how we should live our lives.



Changing the medium upon which God's eternal law is written does not change the content of what it instructs us to do, but rather the New Covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts so that we will obey it. If the laws for how to testify about God's righteousness were to change when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but it is eternal, so any laws that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under.



Nowhere does the Bible say that.



Faith leads us to follow God's instructions in regard to what we should do whether it by to take specific actions or to follow His laws. In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, so this was all done by faith.



Did the Messiah go around announcing that people the Mosaic Law has been abolished, that are no longer confined by it, and that they no longer needed to repent, or the opposite?



Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Mosaic Law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so you should not interpret that as essentially meaning the same thing. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.



Nowhere does the Bible say this, but rather I cited many verses that say the opposite.

You are exemplifying the reason the letter kills.

When a person looks to the written law, they then turn away from the spoken one in their heart.

You cannot live by both.

Life comes through Faith. Death comes from the written law.

This does not mean the law is against Faith, it means the only way to obey God, the way He wants, is through Faith.

Faith will not take you down a path that is contrary to His law - but it will be contrary to the way people view the written law, even against what you in the flesh view the written law.

If you live by the written law you will die in your sin because it will be constantly working against you, but if you live by Faith you will put to death the sin in you because of the life that He provides in Faith.

To live by the Old Covenant is to reject The New One. You reject Christ when you live by the Mosaic law.
 
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I cited many verses that show that our faith is expressed through our obedience to God's law, while nowhere does the Bible say that our faith replace our obedience to it. If our obedience to God's law were for our own good, then it would have been about trying to earn favor with him, but it is for our own good, so it is instead about trusting God to rightly guide us. If we think that God can be trusted to rightly guide us through His laws, then we will follow his guidance, while refusing to follow God's guidance would be expressing a lack of faith in Him, so faith is not something that we do instead of following God's guidance. God's righteous laws teach us about His righteousness, so when we do what is righteous in obedience to them, we are testifying about what we believe is true about who God is, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and we are putting our faith in Him by using His righteousness as the model for how we should live our lives.



Changing the medium upon which God's eternal law is written does not change the content of what it instructs us to do, but rather the New Covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts so that we will obey it. If the laws for how to testify about God's righteousness were to change when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but it is eternal, so any laws that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under.



Nowhere does the Bible say that.



Faith leads us to follow God's instructions in regard to what we should do whether it by to take specific actions or to follow His laws. In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, so this was all done by faith.



Did the Messiah go around announcing to people that the Mosaic Law has been abolished, that are no longer confined by it, and that they no longer needed to repent, or the opposite?



Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Mosaic Law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so you should not interpret that as essentially meaning the same thing. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.



Nowhere does the Bible say this, but rather I cited many verses that say the opposite.

Nathan@work is right in what he wrote; you are wrong.

"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4

It doesn't get any clearer than that. What is it about dying to the Law and being joined to Christ that you don't understand?
 
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I cited many verses that show that our faith is expressed through our obedience to God's law, while nowhere does the Bible say that our faith replace our obedience to it. If our obedience to God's law were for our own good, then it would have been about trying to earn favor with him, but it is for our own good, so it is instead about trusting God to rightly guide us. If we think that God can be trusted to rightly guide us through His laws, then we will follow his guidance, while refusing to follow God's guidance would be expressing a lack of faith in Him, so faith is not something that we do instead of following God's guidance. God's righteous laws teach us about His righteousness, so when we do what is righteous in obedience to them, we are testifying about what we believe is true about who God is, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and we are putting our faith in Him by using His righteousness as the model for how we should live our lives.



Changing the medium upon which God's eternal law is written does not change the content of what it instructs us to do, but rather the New Covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts so that we will obey it. If the laws for how to testify about God's righteousness were to change when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but it is eternal, so any laws that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under.



Nowhere does the Bible say that.



Faith leads us to follow God's instructions in regard to what we should do whether it by to take specific actions or to follow His laws. In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, so this was all done by faith.



Did the Messiah go around announcing to people that the Mosaic Law has been abolished, that are no longer confined by it, and that they no longer needed to repent, or the opposite?



Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Mosaic Law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so you should not interpret that as essentially meaning the same thing. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.



Nowhere does the Bible say this, but rather I cited many verses that say the opposite.

Soyeong, have you ever read these verses..?

Galatians 4:1-7, "Now I mean that the heir, as long as he is a minor, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything. But he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. So also we, when we were minors, were enslaved under the basic forces of the world. But when the appropriate time had come, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we may be adopted as sons with full rights. And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son, then you are also an heir through God."
 
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Soyeong

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That's your opinion, but I disagree. Jumping all over the place, citing parts of books out of order, from both Testaments, is poor exegesis.

I'm not sure the extent to which you are disagreeing. Do you believe that the books of the Bible form a cohesive whole? Do you believe that all of the books of the Bible are is inspired by God and therefore true?

In case you failed to read my "signature", here it is: Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

There is no doubt in my mind that you have interpreted text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases, selecting verses from "all over the map" to create your own interpretation. For example, Psalm 14:1b says, "There is no God". So that proves there is no God, according to your logic, right?

A single verses can be taken out of context of a paragraph, a chapter, a book, or the entire Bible, but it would be absurd to think that I need quote the entire Bible in order to make a point about what it says on a particular topic without taking it out of context. It is possible to correctly understand a verse by itself, so the fact that it is possible for me to take a verse out of context does not necessarily mean that I have done that, but if you think that I have misunderstood as verse by taking it out of context, such as if I had tried to use Palms 14:1b to make a point about there being no God, then I invite you to do so. We all have biases, so just pointing out that I have biases does not undermine by position unless you can show how my biases have unduly influenced how I interpret the verses that I've cited.

Eisegesis is reading things into the text that it does not say rather than drawing meaning out of it, such as reading into the text that there were three kings of visited Jesus as a baby, that the fruit that was eaten in Garden of Eden was an apple, or identifying the women who anointed Jesus with her hair as being Mary Magdalene or as her being a prostitute. Those who do exegesis use verses to show how they have derived their position from the Bible, so doing that does not imply that someone is doing eisegesis, and in fact someone using cross references to show the broader context is a hallmark of eisegesis. In the following link, it specifically states eisegesis involves no cross references with related passages and the example of exegesis that it gives uses cross references from a number of different books:

What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis? | GotQuestions.org
 
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Soyeong

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Nathan@work is right in what he wrote; you are wrong.

"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4

It doesn't get any clearer than that. What is it about dying to the Law and being joined to Christ that you don't understand?

The part I don't understand is how it makes sense to you to interpret that verses as saying we need to reject God's laws for how to bear fruit for Him in order to bear fruit for Him, or how it makes sense to think that the way to become joined with Christ is by rejecting what he spent his ministry teaching by or word and by example, or how it makes sense for you to put your eisegesis on full display by introducing your own presuppositions, agenda, or biases into that verse in order to make it out to be in rebellion against obeying what God has commanded, which is contrary to everything else in the context of Romans 6-8.

Soyeong, have you ever read these verses..?

Galatians 4:1-7, "Now I mean that the heir, as long as he is a minor, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything. But he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. So also we, when we were minors, were enslaved under the basic forces of the world. But when the appropriate time had come, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we may be adopted as sons with full rights. And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son, then you are also an heir through God."

God's law is a holy, righteous, and, and was given as precious gift from God for our own good in order to bless us, so those under the law have no need to be redeemed from the law, but rather we had the need to be redeemed from our lawlessness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks means to believe that Jesus came to redeem those under the law (Acts 21:20). In 1 John 2:6, it doesn't say that thought who are in Christ set free from needing to walk in the same way he walked, but just the opposite.
 
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The part I don't understand is how it makes sense to you to interpret that verses as saying we need to reject God's laws for how to bear fruit for Him in order to bear fruit for Him, or how it makes sense to think that the way to become joined with Christ is by rejecting what he spent his ministry teaching by or word and by example, or how it makes sense for you to put your eisegesis on full display by introducing your own presuppositions, agenda, or biases into that verse in order to make it out to be in rebellion against obeying what God has commanded, which is contrary to everything else in the context of Romans 6-8.



God's law is a holy, righteous, and, and was given as precious gift from God for our own good in order to bless us, so those under the law have no need to be redeemed from the law, but rather we had the need to be redeemed from our lawlessness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks means to believe that Jesus came to redeem those under the law (Acts 21:20). In 1 John 2:6, it doesn't say that thought who are in Christ set free from needing to walk in the same way he walked, but just the opposite.

There are a lot of things that don’t make sense. It doesn’t make sense why God would but one single tree in the Garden, that they could not eat from, and tell them not to eat it.

It doesn’t make sense that the serpent was even allowed in the garden to tempt them.

Everything has a reason. The law had a purpose, it was a testimony - against us and for God.

We do not reject the Mosaic law, we reject it being our guide. It was never the guide of the people, the Ark was. They were supposed to keep watch of the Ark.

This was all to point to Christ. When you focus on the law you cannot focus on the fullness of Christ. When you focus on the law you are focusing on the power of sin.

God wants our attention on Him alone. He wants us to rest in Him.
 
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