The Lesson We Need to Learn

[Ana the Ist]

I also always find it hilarious when conservative creationists claim liberal scientists aren't basing their "opinions" on evidence.

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Oh, wait.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything...

I'm not conservative or creationist.

I'm sure you can find some on this forum somewhere though....perhaps they'll be impressed with your stories about what you find "hilarious".

While you're here, try to stay on topic.

 

[stevil]

Then I don't understand what your complaint is in post 115.

If people are justified in protesting the legal actions of police and legal rulings of the justice system, then they're certainly justified in protesting the results of the election and pandemic mandates.
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People can protest wearing masks if they want to, but in my opinion it is a weird thing to protest. Wearing masks saves lives in this time of a global deadly pandemic, it helps to reduce the spread of the disease. It doesn't take much effort to wear a mask. It is no big deal to wear one.
But people can protest it if they want.

People can protest the election, but realise, that there was no significant fraud. There at least is no evidence of such.

 

[MIDutch]

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything...

I'm not conservative or creationist.

It has to do with how flat earthers and creationists view data, evidence, facts, truth, and reality. In my observations, trump supporters are cut from the same cloth.

From my experience, it's because trump supporters seem to have learned everything they know about debate, arguing, disinformation, misinformation, spreading falsehoods, etc. from creationists.

I think the "Lesson We Need To Learn" is not to be as delusional as creationists.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It has to do with how flat earthers and creationists view data, evidence, facts, truth, and reality. In my observations, trump supporters are cut from the same cloth.

From my experience, it's because trump supporters seem to have learned everything they know about debate, arguing, disinformation, misinformation, spreading falsehoods, etc. from creationists.

I think the "Lesson We Need To Learn" is not to be as delusional as creationists.

I used to think the same thing....that they were just ignoring any evidence that didn't fit their narrative....or they didn't understand why anecdotes aren't evidence....

But over the past 2-3 years I've realized it's actually both sides. I could just as easily list things that people on the left believe despite the science not supporting them. Gender is socially constructed? Not really.... Unconscious bias accounts for racial disparities? Actually there's no real evidence it influences behavior.....not to mention you can't train anyone to avoid it.

I totally understand that it looks like the Trump supporters are just focusing on a selection of evidence that supports their narrative while ignoring everything else.....

....and they are.

But the left is basically doing the same thing for a lot of social issues and I promise that it doesn't matter if you point it out to them.

People seem to care more about belonging to a group than they care about the truth.

Edit- Of course, I'm speaking generally....not talking about everyone on each side. I don't want to offend anyone who imagines they base their views on the evidence.

 

[KCfromNC]

The first post of yours I linked is your attempt to minimize Antifa

You are still hung up on someone pointing out the date of a posted article in a thread from last summer? Yikes.

Also, your claim is patently false. Your misunderstanding is that I was just pointing out that something that happened years ago wasn't exactly on-topic for a thread discussing current events. I get there's some sort of knee jerk reaction by some to try and turn discussions towards groups they are told to be afraid of as a way to minimize actual right-wing terrorism. And those attempts just grab anything which feels right at the moment, which in that case was a poorly-thought-out attempt to use an unrelated article from 2017 to blame the group on an (at the time) current event.

For another example of just grabbing at straws to minimize far right violence, see the OP in this thread.

Back here in reality, there's a wide gap between "not falling for lame right wing propaganda and distractions" and "actual support for the groups used as that propaganda". The fact you can't see it - even after it being pointed out over and over - it quite suspicious. To me, it almost feels like a way to avoid actually addressing the content of what people post. In place of actual discussion of those posts, make up some wild fantasy about the poster, with the hope of distracting the gullible. I mean, I guess it will convince some people who are already predisposed to believe these things. But to the rest of us, it simply demonstrates an inability to back up one's position using facts or reason.

Even more suspicious is that it is such a big deal to you that we see post after post about how terrible it was someone didn't fall for it 8 months later. Very weird to be so fixated on this one particular topic, in my opinion at least.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I get there's some sort of knee jerk reaction by some to try and turn discussions towards groups they are told to be afraid of as a way to minimize actual right-wing terrorism.

This is you minimizing political violence.

The old "it's not the group I support....it's the group you support" nonsense.

The problem is that unlike you, I've never defended political violence.

 

[A2SG]

False.

There's more ways to support violence than words.

You didn't miss it....you just deny it.

Let's look at it this way: Let's say BLM made a statement that you kick puppies. And you make a statement that you don't kick puppies, nor do you condone or promote doing so.

Who should I believe? You, or someone talking about you?

Let's see BLM leader...

At a BLM protest...

Describing what BLM is going to do to the press if they don't get their way...

To answer your question, yes.

So the entire group is responsible for everything that those who support it do?

So if your friend kicks a puppy, and says he did it for you, then you are responsible. His actions make you a puppy kicker.

Is that your contention?

Oh, and by the way, did you even bother to read the article you posted? Her response is a lot more nuanced than you're indicating. Just sayin'.

I see the problem....you don't know what the word promote means...

Definition of PROMOTE

Promote-to contribute to the growth or prosperity of

See there's lots of ways to promote political violence. You could donate to a group that commits political violence. You can bail out people guilty of political violence. You can voice your support for the people and groups committing political violence.

There's a lot of ways that BLM promotes political violence. If you want to deny them...fine...but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You say they promote violence, they say they don't.

They say you kick puppies, you say you don't.

Who should I believe?

Apparently you don't know what the word defend means either. You don't have to be affiliated with a group to defend them.

True, but you do have to defend them in some way, and I have not done that.

If you somehow think I have, then you have, again, made assumptions.

You know what happens when you assume, right?

There's no question in what you wrote.

Who are you, Alex Trebek?

But never mind, you answered it elsewhere.

-- A2SG, no puppies were harmed in the making of this post.....

 

[A2SG]

This is a section of what you said appears to be a news story.

You say it is not evidence of support.

Not that they support violence, no.

It sounds more like they support the individual, but I see nothing in there that they support the violent acts she committed.

It states that organizers from around the world sent letters of support.

Multiple local chapters assisted with fundraisers and legal support.

How is that not "support"?

Support for her.

Not for her violent acts.

You can support someone, even if you don't support everything they've done.

-- A2SG, kinda like the idea of love the sinner, not the sin, I suppose....

 

[KCfromNC]

This is you minimizing political violence.

The old "it's not the group I support....it's the group you support" nonsense.

The problem is that unlike you, I've never defended political violence.

I see you've taken my advice to abandon attempts to actually find quotes of me saying the things you're claiming I did and just go on repeating the same falsehoods over and over. Good job. Not being able to find a single example of what you claimed I did is sure to be very convincing to, well, nobody I really care about.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Many people are upset about the Capitol incident....and rightly so. It is upsetting. I'm not afraid of an insurrection or coup though....that's not going to happen. It's certainly not going to happen at the hands of the clowns that stormed the Capitol.

I'm more afraid that the average person doesn't understand the role they played in things getting to this point. It's all about the behavior that you're willing to support, make excuses for, or even just tolerate.

Let's take a look at this article from the Atlantic at the beginning of June 2020.

The Double Standard of the American Riot

The article is pretty clear....violence and rebellion against the authority of the US government is justified if you feel your cause is important enough.

Various forms of this argument were made and propped up by left wing media for the next three months. During those three months, many people were willing to excuse violence against police and the intimidation of government officials. They would say the don't condone violence out of one side of their mouth.....then they'd express support for the group doing the violence in the very next breath.

The message there is pretty clear....violence is excusable if you feel really strongly about your cause.

During those months many people were scared when the violence was in their cities, on their streets....or right in their faces. A lot of those people were mocked, or made fun of. Mayors and governors declared their support for the rioters and looters and blamed the police or federal officers who tried to restore the rule of law. People continually expressed their support for the groups committing these acts....and repeatedly blamed police for using any force against them. They donated bail to the guilty....they donated money to the group responsible for the violence.

So now when a group of Trump supporters decided to protest at the Capitol and it quickly turned into violence, destruction of property, and intimidation of public officials.....people want someone to blame. The reality is that if you were willing to ignore the violence and rioting over the summer and supported those doing it....then you are to blame.

We shouldn't allow this kind of behavior ever. There's no justification for rioting and violence and destruction of property or intimidating officials....at all. The Atlantic, the New York Times, CNN, and every other publication that made excuses for these people are wrong.

The moment that a protest results in violence against the police....it's no longer justified. We should support the police when they use force to stop it. We should stop supporting any group that decides to attack police and tries to intimidate public officials.

People have a right to protest peacefully. If they go around destroying property, they should be arrested and the protest ended. If they go around surrounding and intimidating public officials...they should be considered terrorists. If any group regularly engages in such behavior, they should be declared a terrorist organization and it's supporters should be arrested. We should support the police in stopping these people and that includes allowing the police to decide when to use force.

If we do this....and consistently condemn the groups who are guilty of these things....I'm certain we can avoid any incidents like the Capitol riot in the future.

I'm afraid that won't happen though. I'm afraid that both sides will feel justified in supporting the violence their side does and only condemning it from the other side. If that continues, I'm afraid this will escalate to full scale bloodshed here in the US.

It's entirely avoidable....but only if we support the rule of law consistently for everyone....no matter what they are protesting. As I said at the beginning of this post, it's all about the behavior you're willing to support, make excuses for, or even just tolerate.

Initially when you read this post from OP, some might think OP is writing a balance post about all violence. But if you dug deep you will see OP took an interesting approach. The entire post is 635 word, out of that OP spent 42 words denouncing the violence in Capital hill, then OP spent 593 words to attack media, attack BLM, attack those who took side with BLM and protested against Police brutality, calling some of us hypocrites because we denounce Trump supporter but not BLM movement.

I have my opinion about the post, but I will let everyone else come to their own conclusion of Op’s intention.

 

[tall73]

Not that they support violence, no.

It sounds more like they support the individual, but I see nothing in there that they support the violent acts she committed.



Support for her.

Not for her violent acts.

You can support someone, even if you don't support everything they've done.

-- A2SG, kinda like the idea of love the sinner, not the sin, I suppose....

So by that logic, if someone sent letters of support to one of the rioters in DC, and supported their legal defense, they would not thereby be supporting their violence, correct?

 

[A2SG]

So by that logic, if someone sent letters of support to one of the rioters in DC, and supported their legal defense, they would not thereby be supporting their violence, correct?

Not necessarily, no. You can support a person, even support their right to a fair trial, without supporting, endorsing or promoting their actions.

-- A2SG, heck, lawyers do that all the time.....

 

[tall73]

Not necessarily, no. You can support a person, even support their right to a fair trial, without supporting, endorsing or promoting their actions.

-- A2SG, heck, lawyers do that all the time.....

Great. Then we can stop talking about either side supporting violence. Are you going to send a letter of support to Trump?

 

[A2SG]

Great. Then we can stop talking about either side supporting violence.

I'm content with those who committed crimes being held accountable for them.

Are you going to send a letter of support to Trump?

Nope.

-- A2SG, the less we see or hear of him, the better, you ask me.....

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

All I've learned is Trump and his supporters, that killed and destroyed property and attempted to kidnap Pence and other people at the capital. Over trumps lies and brain washing are terrorist .And the media didn't put things on Trumps Twitter account . That was Trump. As for the people protesting or rioting over the murder George Floyd and then a few others. Well I don't recall anyone encouraging it. If someone encouraged rioting. Then they should be punished. Let not forget people have all ready been charged for their involvement for the riots and damaging things.