The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

[ToBeLoved]

Indeed, the person making the vow would set its length and it was completely voluntary, but it nevertheless did involve making offerings.

Not in the way you are explaining it. You are tying it back to the Law and the Old Covenant. Using it as examples of the Law and relevance when it is separate.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Interesting as I read along how people are piecing out the law as if it were not part of a specific covenant with a specific people.

If one cannot complete all that covenant than it is no longer valid.

Example. Levitical priesthood.

 

[NeedyFollower]

None of the law is abolished. Parts of the law have been suspended, parts transferred to another people (the apostles and their offspring who keep the commandments), parts can’t be kept because we aren’t in the Land, or temple removed, parts are still enforce – and none of these law include the Rabbinic, man-made, Pharasitical laws.


However, regarding your question which you keep repeating hasn’t been answered (Your question: Where does it say that Christ said gentiles had to keep Jewish law?). It has been answered – multiple times. You just refuse to see. You have been given the answer from Soyeong and B-man and Sparrow, the OP and others. I have listed enough verses where Christ (Yahshua) has Himself answered this question.

1. Christ said that He only did what the Heavenly Father did and taught what His Father taught Him. And what did the Father give/teach? – His Law. Yahshua is certainly not teaching in opposition to His Father’s Law who said on the mountain, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him.” Or at His baptism, “This is My beloved Son in whom I Am well Pleased.” What pleased the Father? Obedience rather than sacrifice. Obedience to what? His own Law, God’s Law. The Father’s law is Christ’s law; Christ’s law if the Heavenly Father’s law. If Christ was teaching Galilean men how to keep His Father’s laws (as all the below verses say), then what were they going to teach the gentiles to whom they were sent in the Great Commission? – God’s laws, the same ones Christ explained fully to them.

a. John 5:30 As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

b. Joh 8:28 Jesus therefore said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [He,] and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29 "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."

c. Joh 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak. 50 "And I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

d. Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me; otherwise believe on account of the works themselves.

e. Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him. 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

f. Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

2. You said in an earlier post that Paul cast down the ‘food sacrificed to idols’ ruling, mentioned in Acts 15. You have said repeatedly that gentiles don’t have to keep the law. If this is true then why does Christ Himself in Revelation convict a gentile Church (Pergamum) who is guilty of this same Old Testament sin (Ex 34: 13-15), threatening to take away their candlestick because of this violation? Since I doubt Paul is wrong, you must be misunderstanding what Paul is saying.

a. Re 2:14 'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit [acts of] immorality.

b. 1 Corinthians 10:19-21 What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

c. On top of that Paul wrote in 2Ti 3:14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned [them]; 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. In his childhood, Timothy would have learned the OT (as the sacred writings). Notice that Paul says the sacred writings lead to salvation through faith in Christ.

Also, Timothy’s non-circumcision is evidence that his father and mother followed non-believing gentile customs, which his grandmother opposed with her OT scriptural teachings. This made Timothy basically a gentile, if you follow lineage through the father as most of the scriptures do.

d. 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. What is the scripture that Paul is talking about? The only scripture they had at this time was the OT, which is the very thing Paul references in 2Ti 3:14 (sacred writings). The law and the prophets are the very thing that leads to salvation by pointing to Christ.

e. If your interpretation is true then why do the Apostles, including Paul agree that the gentiles should go to the Synagogue from Sabbath to Sabbath to learn the law of Moses? Why do they place on them Old Testament laws, which they are required to abide by, in order to eat with Peter, Barnabas? Ac 15:19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."


3. Many times, I have listed multiple verses where Paul uses God’s law to judge (they are not exhaustive, but there are enough, that along with the above, you should question your interpretation). If you were arrested and the judge began using Sharia law to list your charges and then your sentence, you would know that the law he was using was Muslim. By the same logic, if you see Paul using God’s law to charge or judge, He must be using God’s law – which makes it clear it isn’t abolished. (and not just the 10 commandments.)

a. Paul judged using OT incest laws (1 Cor 5:1; Lev 18

b. Muzzle the ox laws (1 Cor 9:9; De 25:4)

c. Homosexuality laws (Rom 1:26; Lev 18)

d. Divorce laws (1 Cor 7:11; Mt 19:9; De 24:1)

e. Paul judged himself regarding submission to ecclesiastical authority (Act 23:5; Ex 22:28)

f. Paul defended not eating food sacrificed to idols. (1 Cor 10:19-21; Ex 34: 13-15)


4. Finally, you have stated that there was no law before Moses. A list of many laws from Genesis was posted, but not replied to, some of which were sacrificial laws.

a. The first sacrificial offerings – Abel’s righteous offering is the firstling of the flock; Cain’s offering that gets no regard is him not giving the first fruits of the ground (Ex. 34:22-24) If there were no laws, why did God have no regard for Cain’s offering? How could Cain have known what to offer that was righteous?

Ge 4:3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground. 4 And Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; 5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard.

b. Sacrificial laws – Clean animals for sacrifice (Lev. 11:46-47). How in the world did Noah know what a clean animal was?

Ge 7:2 "You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; 3 also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth.

c. Sacrificial laws – Clean animals for sacrifice (Lev. 11:46:47). Even if he guessed what a clean animal was, how did he know that this was the animal he was supposed to sacrifice? He could have sacrificed a dog or a pig.

Ge 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

d. Blood law – Do not eat the blood (Lev. 17:10-11). This is an important law for God. He mentions it several times, sometimes out of the blue.

Ge 9:4 "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, [that is,] its blood.

e. The first tithes – Abram gives portion of war booty and Jacob promises a tithe. (De. 14:22)

Ge 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; 20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." And he (Abram) gave him a tenth of all.

Ge 28:20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, 21 and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God. 22 "And this stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God's house; and of all that Thou dost give me I will surely give a tenth to Thee."

f. Commandments, Statutes and Laws – Before they were given to Moses. What commandments, statutes and laws did Abraham have and keep that cause his descendants to be blessed?

Ge 26:4 "And I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

g. You shall have One God; Ex. 20:2 – And purification from uncleanness; Num 19:20. How exactly do they go about purifying themselves without instruction from the God they are trying to please?

Ge 35:2 So Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, "Put away the foreign gods which are among you, and purify yourselves, and change your garments; 3 and let us arise and go up to Bethel; and I will make an altar there to God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and has been with me wherever I have gone." 4 So they gave to Jacob all the foreign gods which they had, and the rings which were in their ears

h. Levirate laws – Keeping a man’s family name alive (De 25:5-6). How does Tamar know that this is the righteous thing to do? If the levirate law did not exist how did Judah declare Tamar's actions righteous?

Ge 38:6 Now Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name [was] Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah's first-born, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life. 8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother." 9 And Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so it came about that when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground, in order not to give offspring to his brother. 10 But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also. 11 Then Judah said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, "Remain a widow in your father's house until my son Shelah grows up"; for he thought, "[I am afraid] that he too may die like his brothers." So Tamar went and lived in her father's house.

Ge 38:24 Now it was about three months later that Judah was informed, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar has played the harlot, and behold, she is also with child by harlotry." Then Judah said, "Bring her out and let her be burned!" 25 It was while she was being brought out that she sent to her father-in-law, saying, "I am with child by the man to whom these things belong." And she said, "Please examine and see, whose signet ring and cords and staff are these?" 26 And Judah recognized [them,] and said, "She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah." And he did not have relations with her again.



Between this post and the dozens of others on this issue, this subject matter has been thoroughly explained. Christ’s law is God’s law. Christ’s law has been in existence since Adam. Christ taught what His Father taught Him – God’s law. Christ taught, lived, and was an example to those who wish to be His disciples to follow His example and walk as He walked. This includes gentiles who hope to attach themselves to the rich olive root (Rom 11:17). Therefore, gentiles live by the rules of the olive tree; gentiles aren’t a new tree. Gentiles are just grafted-in branches that have been given the awesome responsibility of carrying the message of Christ’s good news (repent, put away sin, join His team that defeats the ways of the Devil [1John 3:8]) and to maintain the oracles of God (God’s law explained by Christ).

The first sacrificial offerings – Abel’s righteous offering is the firstling of the flock; Cain’s offering that gets no regard is him not giving the first fruits of the ground (Ex. 34:22-24) If there were no laws, why did God have no regard for Cain’s offering? How could Cain have known what to offer that was righteous?

Ge 4:3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground. 4 And Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; 5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard.

You know I also have pondered this and wondered how it was that Abel knew to bring a blood offering of the firstlings of his flock . I think this was why Cain offering was not acceptable ..By faith , he knew ...To me, this is in agreement with the fact that the Lord our God had to provide animal skins for Adam and Eve ...fig leaves would not atone for their sin ..it would take blood. Which also foreshadowed Christ.
For me and obviously I will answer to the perfect and righteous judge for every idle word as it may effect someone's walk , I do not object to any keeping of Jewish Laws but I am also aware that Jesus said I give you a new commandment ..that you love one another.... If any of you do err from the TRUTH and one convert him, you shall save a soul from death , etc. I believe there is a chance , that knowledge is not always truth though it seems that way ..it is what the scribes and pharisees failed to see ...and they had scripture to back them up. All of the scriptures agree and point out that Love , Sacrifice , Truth , Mercy are all related ...obedience to an outward observance will not hurt anything until it become one's righteousness ...That was what Paul was concerned about in Galatians ...No new heart ...just an opportunity to start "becoming special " . Are you familiar with some of the early Moravians who sold themselves into actual slavery so they could preach to the slaves ? No Jewish observance and sabbath keeping ( they were slaves mind you ) but they had LOVE ...We dare not show up on judgment day with a bunch of very lawful and good laws as our covering but have not love ...this is my concern ( not for you but for me and anyone who desires to follow Christ Jesus our Lord in Truth. )
You who compare yourselves among yourselves are not wise ...why do you think our brother Paul said that ? It is because it will lead to pride ...One more easily knows when they are eating from the tree of knowledge of evil but that tree had a fruit of knowledge of good and evil .. knowledge of good is no substitute for love . There is a higher law .

 

[hebrewrootwife]

I agree. We are not under the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law (ML) was not the one written on our hearts. It was t he Law of Christ. Also, the sacrifices in the temple (animal) were done away with since the perfect, spotless Lamb of God was offered there ONCE for all since the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin permanently. Hallelujah! I am being divorced by a Hebrew Root follower and the religion is a combination of SDA and Jewish. I am a Non Denominationalist. Bad combination. Legalism and Grace.. They don't mix and neither do marriages with those elements unless one or both are prepared to not discuss religion or at least study together and one of them is OPEN to change. God Bless!

 

[συνείδησις]

“Do not think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. I have not come to destroy them but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one tiny letter or one stroke of a letter will pass away from the law until all is fulfilled. Therefore whoever abolishes one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever keeps them and teaches them, this person will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19​

Uh oh. Unless all things pertaining to the law have been fulfilled, Paul's in deep doodoo.

Law of Moses

And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Leviticus 12:3
​

Paul

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Galatians 5:2
​

Christ fulfilled all righteousness required by the law, so I think Paul's going to be OK.

 

[SkyWriting]

I agree. We are not under the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law (ML) was not the one written on our hearts. It was t he Law of Christ. Also, the sacrifices in the temple (animal) were done away with since the perfect, spotless Lamb of God was offered there ONCE for all since the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin permanently. Hallelujah! I am being divorced by a Hebrew Root follower and the religion is a combination of SDA and Jewish. I am a Non Denominationalist. Bad combination. Legalism and Grace.. They don't mix and neither do marriages with those elements unless one or both are prepared to not discuss religion or at least study together and one of them is OPEN to change. God Bless!

Not discussing works.

 

[NeedyFollower]

I agree. We are not under the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law (ML) was not the one written on our hearts. It was t he Law of Christ. Also, the sacrifices in the temple (animal) were done away with since the perfect, spotless Lamb of God was offered there ONCE for all since the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin permanently. Hallelujah! I am being divorced by a Hebrew Root follower and the religion is a combination of SDA and Jewish. I am a Non Denominationalist. Bad combination. Legalism and Grace.. They don't mix and neither do marriages with those elements unless one or both are prepared to not discuss religion or at least study together and one of them is OPEN to change. God Bless!

Oh , sister ..I am so sorry to hear this having lost my wife due to my repentance and ironically actually loving my wife afterwards . ( I did not know what love was until after Jesus Christ came and found me . ) Actually he can only divorce you for fornication ( which is not the same as adultery because it happens during the year long betrothal and demonstrated on the wedding night . ) However , if an unbeliever depart , let them depart for we are called to peace but let them remain single .
On the upside , now you are free to love him because he was created in the image of the Father ...and we are called to love our enemies ...even if they be of the same household ....He is not free NOT to love you unless he becomes a follower of another Jesus ...By the way ...legalism is watching a "harmlessly" wholesome movie but deciding it is ungodly when someone uses a swear word . But that is another discussion . My hope is that you two will be reconciled in Christ . Not in each other. Self Righteousness is only a disease of the extremly zealous ...Ask Saul / Paul ..It is why Paul was OUR apostle ..Ask your husband to read Galatians and then Corinthians 13 ..How is his love and meekness coming along ? Saul/Paul had the law nailed ...Love ? Not so much .

 

[Open Heart]

I agree. We are not under the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law (ML) was not the one written on our hearts. It was t he Law of Christ. Also, the sacrifices in the temple (animal) were done away with since the perfect, spotless Lamb of God was offered there ONCE for all since the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin permanently. Hallelujah! I am being divorced by a Hebrew Root follower and the religion is a combination of SDA and Jewish. I am a Non Denominationalist. Bad combination. Legalism and Grace.. They don't mix and neither do marriages with those elements unless one or both are prepared to not discuss religion or at least study together and one of them is OPEN to change. God Bless!

First let me say how sorry I am that your marriage has ended. I can only imagine how hard this must be for you to go through. Yes, I can see where the religious differences must have been a source of contention. It's too bad you were not able to find common ground. I hope your divorce will be as amicable as possible, that if you have children you will be able to co-parent well, and that you will be able to find joy and meaning in your new single life.

Note: this is our little MJ hideaway. Please don't preach that the law is abrogated in here. It's not just against the SOP, it's also just not being a nice guest. I realize that your post was coming from a place of pain. I have no bad feelings towards you.