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"The Law is for the Jews."

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by HARK!, Jan 14, 2022.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    YHWH told us that he was going to renew that covenant; and that this time he wasn't going to write his eternal Torah on stones; that this time he was going to write his eternal Torah on our hearts.

    I don't believe that Paul was teaching against the word of YHWH himself.
     
  2. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    What would make you believe that the renewed covenant isn't conditional?

    Are you suggesting that the lawless will enter the Kingdom? Yahshua makes it clear that that won't happen.
     
  3. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Does He? Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
     
  4. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You know Hark, I really do not understand how you interpret scripture. Maybe your CLV translation from one who doesn't believe in the Triune God has you believing the new covenant is just the old one warmed over. As I have explained over and over that the Sinai covenant was about laws concerning Israel's well being in Cannon. The new covenant is about eternal salvation. The Sinai was only eternal IF Israel kept it, they didn't. The new covenant is eternal. They absolutely are not the same.
     
  5. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    you were talking about covenant and Torah as if they are the same thing. They're not. That is why YHWH used two different words.
    I specifically said that I would not debate when the Covenant was ratified; because it is off topic. I then asked you a specific question about the law.

    You then ignored the question. You ignored the topic of this thread; and you changed the subject.

    Why is that? Why won't you just answer this simple question? Why change the subject?

    Do you really believe that YHWH's Torah ended at Calvary?

    I don't need some big, elaborate, ducking and weaving, dancing around the bush, kind of answer.

    A simple yes or no will do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  6. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    It doesn't matter what the translator believes. He could be an Atheist. What matters is if the translation is correct. Ad hominem arguments are fallacious.

    In Cannon? LOL!

    Cannon Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
    [​IMG] www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cannon
    The meaning of CANNON is a large, heavy gun usually mounted on a carriage. How to use cannon in a sentence. What is the difference between cannon and canon?


    I suppose that you meant Canon. It didn't exist until long after all of the original Apostles had died. Are you limiting you studies to the Pharisee Canon; or are you you including the books that the Zadokim accepted as scripture; as YHWH charged them to preserve scripture? Yahshua and his disciples taught from some of these books. Are you chopping them out of your Canon, and following the Pharisees?

    The covenant through Moshe was about salvation.

    So is it through the covenant through Yahshua.

    So are all of YHWH's covenants. We already established this. Do you have anything else?
     
  7. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is that from the CLV version? If not where do you find that the old covenant was renewed?
     
  8. daq

    daq Messianic

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    For me, the following passages contain the cup of the confirmation of the covenant concerning the many, both in the sense of many people, and in the sense of the many covenants, (all the covenants folded into one confirmation).

    Matthew 26:26-28 ASV
    26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
    27 And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
    28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

    Mark 14:22-24 ASV
    22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and when he had blessed, he brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take ye: this is my body.
    23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to them: and they all drank of it.
    24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

    And this next passage contains the cup of the new-renewed covenant, which is private and personal, to each in his own appointed times, as is all of the Gospel: but in this case it is to his inner circle because they have all been through his ministry, and thus, immersed into his doctrine all together at the same time.

    Luke22:14-20 ASV
    14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the apostles with him.
    15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
    16 for I say unto you, I shall not eat it, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
    17 And he received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
    18 for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
    19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    20 And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.

    The one who loves the Father and His Word will see and perceive, and the one who loves his dogma-king will gnash his teeth: if you do not drink of the first cup, then you do not drink of the cup at the end of the supper in the Luke passage, which is the only mention of the kainos-renewed covenant, and which is to each in his or her own appointed times, the time appointed of the Father when a child becomes a son, which has already been fully expounded herein to the naysayers who also refuse to believe Paul.
     
  9. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I've been over this with you before. Maybe you missed it.

    I'm going by the Hebrew manuscripts, not the mistranslation of the CLV.

    (CLV) Jer 31:31
    Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new (חדשה)covenant with the house of Israel (Notice who the contract is with) and the house of Judah.



    ל הִנֵּה יָמִים בָּאִים, נְאֻם-יְהוָה; וְכָרַתִּי, אֶת-בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֶת-בֵּית יְהוּדָה--בְּרִית חֲדָשָׁה.

    châdash, khaw-dash'; a primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild:—renew, repair.

    Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)

    STRONGS H2318:
    † [חָדַשׁ] verb only Pi. (and Hithp.) renew, repair (in poetry and late) (Late Hebrew id., Phoenician חדש; noun חדש new moon, also in קרתחדשת new-cityCarthage; Aramaic Tedfo and חַדֵּשׁ; Arabic حَدَثَ be new, Ethiopic ሐደለ፡ I. 2. renew; Sabean החדתֿ, see Os (Levy): ZMG 1865, 204 MordtZMG 1876, 30; Assyrian [adâšu], uddiš, renew, eššu, new, etc. DlW 199 ff.) —
    Pi. Perfect וְחִדְּשׁוּ consecutive Isaiah 61:4; Imperfect וַיְחַדֵּשׁ 2 Chronicles 15:8; 2nd person masculine singular תְּחַדֵּשׁ Job 10:17; Psalm 104:30; וּנְחַדֵּשׁ 1 Samuel 11:14; Imperative חַדֵּשׁ Psalm 51:21; Infinitive לְחַדֵּשׁ 2 Chronicles 24:4, 12; —

    1. renew, make anew הַמְּלוּכָה 1 Samuel 11:14 (editorial); פני אדמה Psalm 104:30, רוּחַ Psalm 51:12 (|| בּרא); = bring back יָמֵינוּ כְּקֶדֶם Lamentations 5:21; עדיך ח׳ Job 10:17 i.e. bringest fresh (new) witnesses.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  10. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How about absolutely.
     
  11. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't read Hebrew nor do I translate it. What is a conundrum is that every translation below says new. Surely one of the would catch the falsehood of the rest and agree with you and Strongs. I surely do believe it is a new covenant because the Sinai covenant according to Heb 8 is obsolete. I care less where it is written, the fact is we are not under it. All Strong's this and that doesn't give you the tools to win the debate.
    KJ21
    “Behold, the days come,” saith the Lord, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
    ASV
    Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    AMP
    “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel (the Northern Kingdom) and with the house of Judah (the Southern Kingdom),
    AMPC
    Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
    BRG
    ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    CSB
    “Look, the days are coming”—this is the Lord’s declaration—“when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
    CEB
    The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
    CJB
    It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them,” says Adonai.
    CEV
    The Lord said: The time will surely come when I will make a new agreement with the people of Israel and Judah.
    DARBY
    Behold, days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    DRA
    Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
    ERV
    This is what the Lord said, “The time is coming when I will make a new agreement with the family of Israel and with the family of Judah.
    EHV
    Yes, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
    ESV
    “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
    ESVUK
    “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
    EXB
    “Look, the ·time is [L days are] coming,” says the Lord, “when I will ·make [L cut] a new ·agreement [covenant; treaty] with the ·people [L house] of Israel and the ·people [L house] of Judah.
    GNV
    ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,
    GW
    “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new promise  to Israel and Judah.
    GNT
    The Lord says, “The time is coming when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
    HCSB
    “Look, the days are coming”—this is the Lord’s declaration—“when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
    ICB
    “Look, the time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new agreement. It will be with the people of Israel and the people of Judah.
    ISV
    “Look, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I’ll make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
    JUB
    Behold, the days come, said the LORD, in which I will make a new covenant with the house of Jacob and with the house of Judah:
    KJV
    Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    AKJV
    Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    LEB
    Look, the days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
    TLB
    The day will come, says the Lord, when I will make a new contract with the people of Israel and Judah.
    MSG
    “That’s right. The time is coming when I will make a brand-new covenant with Israel and Judah. It won’t be a repeat of the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant even though I did my part as their Master.” God’s Decree.
    MEV
    Surely, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
    NOG
    “The days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will make a new promise to Israel and Judah.
    NABRE
    See, days are coming—oracle of the Lord—when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
    NASB
    “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
    NASB1995
    “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
    NCB
    The days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
    NCV
    “Look, the time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new agreement with the people of Israel and the people of Judah.
    NET
    “Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
    NIRV
    “The days are coming,” announces the Lord. “I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel. I will also make it with the people of Judah.
    NIV
    “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
    NIVUK
    ‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
    NKJV
    “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
    NLV
    The days are coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a New Way of Worship for the Jews and those of the family group of Judah.
    NLT
    “The day is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
    NRSV
    The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
    NRSVA
    The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
    NRSVACE
    The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
    NRSVCE
    The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
    OJB
    Hinei, the days come, saith Hashem, that I will cut a Brit Chadasha with Bais Yisroel, and with Bais Yehudah;
    RSV
    “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
    RSVCE
    “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
    TLV
    not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they broke My covenant, though I was a husband to them.” it is a declaration of Adonai.
    VOICE
    Look, the days are coming when I will bring about a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
    WEB
    “Behold, the days come,” says Yahweh, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    WYC
    Lo! days come, saith the Lord, and I shall smite a new bond of peace to the house of Israel, and to the house of Judah; (Lo! days shall come, saith the Lord, and I shall strike a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;)
    YLT
    Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant,

    What is so beautiful about the new covenant is that through Jesus all can benefit from it.
     
  12. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    I think you are taking the words to the extreme here. Kind of like when Israel totally destroyed their enemies, only to fight them again a few chapters later.

    Did you think your argument thru? If 100.00% of the people of Israel were deported, who did the one priest go back and teach?
     
  13. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    You and I may not know the bloodlines, but God does. How else do you think Ezekiel 40-48 will come to pass?
    I'm not sure what you mean by "What changed?"

    1 Chronicles 16:15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, 16 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac, 17 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel for an everlasting covenant,

    Nothing there suggests the old covenant was conditional or temporary. God made many covenants. Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David. Do you think any of them have become null and void? All of God's covenants are at work together. None have perished.

    Extra burdens refer to the works of the law. Sacrifices, etc.

    Not sure exactly what you are asking here. Galatians 4? I'm sure you already know that chapter so I'm guessing you are referring to something else?

    All Israel was promised the land, not just a few at a particular time.
    Genesis 13:14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.

    If you say, "they already received it," did they receive it forever? They just returned to the land after 18 centuries of exile. They have not yet received the land forever. Thus, this prophecy remains.

    "The church was not because the church is not staying on the earth. The church are the Levites of the eternal kingdom, separated from the other peoples. Just as the Levites were not given any land inheritance because God Himself is their inheritance. The Temple modeled the kingdom of heaven."

    This is a deep and long subject, but I'll try to lay it briefly.

    Numbers 18:20 Then the Lord said to Aaron: “You shall have no inheritance in their land, nor shall you have any portion among them; I am your portion and your inheritance among the children of Israel.
    Deuteronomy 10:9 Therefore Levi has no portion nor inheritance with his brethren; the Lord is his inheritance, just as the Lord your God promised him.)

    Hebrews 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

    Revelation 1:5 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us a kingdom of priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever.
    1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

    Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

    Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    My intent here is to establish four things mainly.
    One, the Tabernacle was a shadow of heavenly things which Moses was shown. This is a model of the kingdom of heaven. Another example of this: The Menorah was a lampstand with seven lamps. This represents the seven spirits of God before His throne, referred to several times in Revelation.
    Two, establish that the priesthood is a separated people given no land inheritance. For God Himself is their inheritance. Jesus said, "All that is mine is yours." As Paul said, the church are co-heirs with Christ.
    Three, Revelation 7 describes an innumerable number of saints from every tribe before God's throne in heaven holding palm branches. This is a priestly duty, the wave offering.
    Four, after the regeneration when Jesus sits on His throne of glory is the time those who followed Him will judge Israel. The fact that the church and Israel will exist at the same time after Jesus sits on His throne should be self-evident.

    In conclusion, the church are the Levites of the kingdom of heaven. A separated people, a kingdom of priests in heaven. But, there will still be people on the earth to judge. In the church, we generally have preached faith in Christ, or hell. It isn't that simple. The kingdom is complex with many facets, including Israel.

    Nowhere in scripture does it say the old covenant ended. Just the opposite in fact. As for the gentiles in the old covenant, there have been many converts over the centuries. Even during the exodus, many Egyptians went with Israel and became part of them. That is what I was referring to.

    Again, the kingdom of heaven is bigger than the church understands at this point.

    :thumbsup:
     
  14. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, some may have blood from every tribe. I wonder which tribe God will pick for them?
    Sorry, I don't either. It was a senior moment I guess.


    If you study the verses in context you will find the writer referring to the Abrahamic covenant, not the Sinai covenant. The Sinai covenant was an "IF" covenant as seen in Ex 19:5-6

    See above. I didn't write "IF", God did.

    I don't understand, if the Sinai covenant is as you say still binding then the works are still binding. I don't know how you can have it both ways. The covenant contained over 600 laws.

    You wrote: "Therefore, the rules and ordinance of Moses no longer apply. Those burdens are for the unbelievers of Israel."

    The fact is that those burdens ended when the obsolete covenant ended. Scripture tells us unbelievers are under the curse of Hell. Thank the Lord I am not the judge because I cannot know the heart and minds of others. I have been judged, by man, as an unbeliever because I don't keep the Sabbath God gave to Israel. I am told that I am lawless. My heart doesn't tell me that. I believe in Jesus and love my fellow man and 1Jn3:19 says I belong the truth. What say you?

    Galatians 4? I'm sure you already know that chapter so I'm guessing you are referring to something else?



    All Israel was promised the land, not just a few at a particular time.
    Genesis 13:14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.

    If you say, "they already received it," did they receive it forever? They just returned to the land after 18 centuries of exile. They have not yet received the land forever. Thus, this prophecy remains.



    "The church was not because the church is not staying on the earth. The church are the Levites of the eternal kingdom, separated from the other peoples. Just as the Levites were not given any land inheritance because God Himself is their inheritance. The Temple modeled the kingdom of heaven."

    This is a deep and long subject, but I'll try to lay it briefly.

    Numbers 18:20 Then the Lord said to Aaron: “You shall have no inheritance in their land, nor shall you have any portion among them; I am your portion and your inheritance among the children of Israel.
    Deuteronomy 10:9 Therefore Levi has no portion nor inheritance with his brethren; the Lord is his inheritance, just as the Lord your God promised him.)

    Hebrews 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

    Revelation 1:5 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us a kingdom of priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever.
    1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

    Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

    Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    My intent here is to establish four things mainly.
    One, the Tabernacle was a shadow of heavenly things which Moses was shown. This is a model of the kingdom of heaven. Another example of this: The Menorah was a lampstand with seven lamps. This represents the seven spirits of God before His throne, referred to several times in Revelation.
    Two, establish that the priesthood is a separated people given no land inheritance. For God Himself is their inheritance. Jesus said, "All that is mine is yours." As Paul said, the church are co-heirs with Christ.
    Three, Revelation 7 describes an innumerable number of saints from every tribe before God's throne in heaven holding palm branches. This is a priestly duty, the wave offering.
    Four, after the regeneration when Jesus sits on His throne of glory is the time those who followed Him will judge Israel. The fact that the church and Israel will exist at the same time after Jesus sits on His throne should be self-evident.

    In conclusion, the church are the Levites of the kingdom of heaven. A separated people, a kingdom of priests in heaven. But, there will still be people on the earth to judge. In the church, we generally have preached faith in Christ, or hell. It isn't that simple. The kingdom is complex with many facets, including Israel.



    Hwb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

    I really do not know how it can get much cleared than this.


    Again, the kingdom of heaven is bigger than the church understands at this point.



    :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]
     
  15. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    I have no idea!

    No prob.

    I agree. The covenant is IF for the individual, not the covenant itself. IF they do what God said, then they will take part in the promise. That doesn't mean God's promise is null and void for the ones who actually did what God said. There has always been a remnant in Israel. Thus, the old covenant remains.

    Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void
    Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

    It is impossible for God to lie, and His word will not return to Him void. Including the following:

    Leviticus 18:5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.

    It is binding for Israel forever, just as Moses wrote. Israel, by definition are those who are "wrestling with God." Thus, the name change from Jacob. Meaning, they are without faith. For the believer, the works of the law do not apply. For the unbeliever in Israel, the works of the law apply forever.

    Not sure I follow you here. My view is that you are a believer in Jesus, and doer of what He said I hope. That frees you from the works of the law, such as the Sabbath. Sadly, many Christians try to create a hybrid of the two covenants, which is a huge mistake in my view.

    This is where so many stumble. All those who wrote by the Spirit wrote about the time of the end, not their own day. Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. and including Paul, John, and Peter. The old covenant will expire when the new one is given to the house of Israel and Judah as Jeremiah wrote. This isn't about the new covenant in Jesus. The new covenant Jeremiah wrote about comes after the everlasting covenant is broken bring massive judgment.

    Isaiah 24:5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws,
    Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned,
    And few men are left.

    Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord.

    Notice the sequence. Israel will break the everlasting covenant. God's judgment devours the earth and burns up the inhabitants. THEN, a new covenant will be made with the remnant that survives. Further, when that new covenant is made, they will ALL know God and not teach one another. None of this applies to the covenant Jesus made that must be taught. Think it thru and you will see the old covenant remains until it is broken, which has not happened yet.
    However, this is all just an exercise really since we both are convinced Jesus is the Christ and thus we enjoy the best covenant.
     
  16. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Acts29, I would like to know, after reading the Old Testament, how one could believe Israel has never broken the covenant?

    I would also like to know why Jesus came to this Earth, fulfilled the laws of the covenant He lived under and ratified the everlasting covenant for ALL mankind if the ones He came to save are still under the curse of the old covenant? Paul wrote to the mixed believers in Galatia calling them foolish for allowing Jews who didn't accept Jesus's new covenant to convert them back under the Law.
    3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

    10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    Jesus redeemed us from what? Paul was a Jew, "us" were/are Jews. It couldn't have been gentiles because they were never given the Law.

    Paul also wrote in 2Cor 3 the following:

    6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (My study Bible says: "In this fascinating letter to a multiethnic church.... So, "us" would include Jews and gentiles as ministers of the new covenant.)
    In the verses below Paul writes that the Jews are no longer under the ten commandments as being the guide, gentiles never were under the covenant, and the words of that covenant which were the ten, commandments. We all have received the gift Jesus left with us before He ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit. The verses also tell us that those ten commandments were transitory. Transitory means temporary. Temporary certainly is not everlasting now is it?
    The Greater Glory of the New Covenant

    7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

    This is a glimpse of my understanding, I welcome your response.
     
  17. expos4ever

    expos4ever Well-Known Member

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    How can one read this text and think that the Law of Moses has been set aside, given that heaven and earth are still here?

    There is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul so forcefully argues (e.g. Eph 2:15): In Hebrew culture, “end of the world” language was commonly used metaphorically to invest commonplace events with theological significance.

    This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence. Isaiah writes:

    10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
    Will not flash forth their light;
    The sun will be dark when it rises
    And the moon will not shed its light

    What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events within the present space-time manifold.

    So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away” is an apocalyptic metaphor?

    It is Jesus’ death on the Cross where He proclaims “It is accomplished”. Note how this dovetails perfectly with the 5:18 declaration that the Law would remain until all is accomplished. Seeing things this way allows us to honour the established tradition of metaphorical end-of-the-world imagery and to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.
     
  18. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus said He came to fulfil the Law. Not even a dot could be removed from the Law until all was accomplished. Seems like those who do not believe Jesus fulfilled what He came to fulfil and not a dot can any Israelite remove from their law (it was given to Israel only) they have not heeded the Word. They have eliminated the sacrificial system, tithing, and many other ordinances. Heaven and Earth passing had to be a metaphor.
     
  19. Torah Keeper

    Torah Keeper Well-Known Member

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    Does complete mean abolish, or complete? Let's ask Yeshua:

    "You must not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to complete them. Indeed, I assure you that, while Heaven and earth last, the Law will not lose a single dot or comma until its purpose is complete."

    Heaven and earth are still here...

    And be careful with that metaphor stuff. If you sprinkle too much of it on the Bible you get theistic preterist evolutionary all-saved episcocatholicoxyanity, a.k.a, worldly Christianity.

    Romans 3:31
     
  20. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Our Master disagrees. These are some of his last words before he ascended.

    (CLV) Lk 24:44
    Now He said to them, "These are My words, which I speak to you, still being with you, for all must be fulfilled that is written in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms concerning Me."
     
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