The law in Galatians

Colouredcoat

New Member
Jul 12, 2015
3
0
22
✟7,621.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
In Galatians 2, most translations of the Bible read verse 16 like this:
...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Assuming the Bolded 'the law' is referring to the God's Holy law, in context, the chapters seem to contradict themselves. Saying that the law is perfect, and then saying that it is a curse seems strange.

In the greek translations there is no 'the', (ho, ton, tous etc.) before the word law in verse 16. When referring to it as Christ's law, there is one.
Thoughts?
 

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,022.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Hello,

I think we need to look at one Paul meant by the phrase "works of the law". Roman 3:27, Romans 9:32, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:2, Galatians 3:5, and Galatians 3:10 all speak negatively about the "works of the law". Whereas Romans 3:31, Romans 6:1-2, Romans 7:12, Romans 7:14, Romans 7:22, 1 Timothy 1:8, and Galatians 2:17 all speak positively about the law. Acts 20:20-24, Acts 25:8, and Acts 28:17 show that Paul did not come to liberate us from the law. The key is that when Paul uses the phrase "works of the law", he is always speaking in the context of how we are is justified. Paul is saying that sinful humans are not made acceptable to a holy, righteous, and good God by legalistically obeying the holy, righteous, and good acts instructed in the law. That was never the purpose of the law.

God reaches out in love to sinners while we are still in our sins to grant us forgiveness and mercy and to redeem us from the penalty of our sins, and then helps us to walk down the path of obedience so that we do not fall back into our sins. He doesn't demand that we obey Him first before He does that because He knows we can't pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. Israel was saved from the angel of death by trusting in the blood of the lamb, were set free from slavery to Egypt, and then they were given laws and expected to obey them. They were not given laws and expected to obey them in order to be saved and delivered. In other words, we don't obey the law in order to be saved, but because we have been saved, and this is what Paul is saying in those verses about the "works of the law". So Paul was not speaking against the holy, righteous, and good law, but against legalism, which is a perversion of the law.

The Dead Sea Scrolls 4QMMT speaks about "works of the law" that they determined would be beneficial to someone that would be reckoned as righteousness is they were obeyed, so this again is in the context of justification by legalism.

So the problem is not with God's holy, righteous, and good law, but with man perverting it into a system of works by which righteousness can be legalistically earned without having to trust God, without having love for God and man, and without being empowered by the Spirit. Here's another way to translate this verse:

Galatians 2:16 (CJB) even so, we have come to realize that a person is not declared righteous by God on the ground of his legalistic observance of Torah commands, but through the Messiah Yeshua’s trusting faithfulness. Therefore, we too have put our trust in Messiah Yeshua and become faithful to him, in order that we might be declared righteous on the ground of the Messiah’s trusting faithfulness and not on the ground of our legalistic observance of Torah commands. For on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, no one will be declared righteous.
 
Upvote 0

Steeno7

Not I...but Christ
Jan 22, 2014
4,446
561
ONUG
✟22,549.00
Faith
Christian
In Galatians 2, most translations of the Bible read verse 16 like this:
...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Assuming the Bolded 'the law' is referring to the God's Holy law, in context, the chapters seem to contradict themselves. Saying that the law is perfect, and then saying that it is a curse seems strange.

In the greek translations there is no 'the', (ho, ton, tous etc.) before the word law in verse 16. When referring to it as Christ's law, there is one.
Thoughts?

I do not see any contradiction.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,022.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
by saying that the law is perfect, then calling it is a curse.
?

The curse of the law is to think that our good works can gain us right standing with God, so that we labor through trusting in our own efforts rather than trusting in God to save us. If we do not put our faith in God, then we will be condemned by the law.
 
Upvote 0

Steeno7

Not I...but Christ
Jan 22, 2014
4,446
561
ONUG
✟22,549.00
Faith
Christian
by saying that the law is perfect, then calling it is a curse.
?

The law is a curse when applied to us specifically because it is perfect and so it demands perfection....but we are not perfect. The law can tell us what we ought to do but it can't give us the ability to fulfill its demands. It can only give us a sense of condemnation over our failure.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,022.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
So the bible, in referring to the law being a curse directly is talking about this catholic error?
That seems odd, seeing there had been no errors like this had arisen so far.

Why would you think that there had been no errors like this so far?
 
Upvote 0

stenerson

Newbie
Apr 6, 2013
578
78
✟14,161.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Assuming the Bolded 'the law' is referring to the God's Holy law, in context, the chapters seem to contradict themselves. Saying that the law is perfect, and then saying that it is a curse seems strange.

Thoughts?

No contradiction. Paul never implies that the Holy Law of God is cursed, or a cursed thing. It curses (condemns, damns accuses etc.) those that do not comply with it. Another phrase he uses to describe it is "the ministration of death written in stones."
It curses and condemns to death all that fall short of it's Holy demands.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JM
Upvote 0

Si_monfaith

Let God alone answer through us
Feb 27, 2016
2,274
210
33
Australia
✟25,925.00
Country
India
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Single
In Galatians 2, most translations of the Bible read verse 16 like this:
...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Assuming the Bolded 'the law' is referring to the God's Holy law, in context, the chapters seem to contradict themselves. Saying that the law is perfect, and then saying that it is a curse seems strange.

In the greek translations there is no 'the', (ho, ton, tous etc.) before the word law in verse 16. When referring to it as Christ's law, there is one.
Thoughts?

Eve chose law which brought curses.

Jesus set us free from the law & from the curses (ephes2:15, galat3:13).

Trust the Lord.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,359
3,626
Canada
✟746,155.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
We are justified by Christ alone, period.

We are united to Christ through the instrumentality of faith alone.

Faith itself is a gift of God and is rightly viewed as an evangelical grace.

We reject any idea and form of self attaining merit that earns salvation.

When referring to it as Christ's law, there is one. Thoughts?

There is only one Law of God. Christ is God. Christ is God in the flesh. His Law is the same as the Law of the Father. There is no double standard, no escape from the moral Law that Adam broke and placed Christ on the Cross in our place. We are saved by Law keeping...Christ's Law keeping. We are saved from the punishment of Law breaking by Christ's vicarious suffering on the Cross in our place. May God have mercy.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
  • Like
Reactions: twin1954
Upvote 0

Sola1517

Saint-in-Progress (Looking for a Church)
Jun 27, 2016
574
200
29
Don't ask
✟20,250.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
In Galatians 2, most translations of the Bible read verse 16 like this:
...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Assuming the Bolded 'the law' is referring to the God's Holy law, in context, the chapters seem to contradict themselves. Saying that the law is perfect, and then saying that it is a curse seems strange.

In the greek translations there is no 'the', (ho, ton, tous etc.) before the word law in verse 16. When referring to it as Christ's law, there is one.
Thoughts?
Maybe it's simply referring to morality taught through general revelation. All religions teach morality but your good morals in the present cannot atone for your sins in the past, or original sin.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,022.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
No contradiction. Paul never implies that the Holy Law of God is cursed, or a cursed thing. It curses (condemns, damns accuses etc.) those that do not comply with it. Another phrase he uses to describe it is "the ministration of death written in stones."
It curses and condemns to death all that fall short of it's Holy demands.

Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Scriptures are up front that the law that was set before them was both a blessing and a curse, a blessing for those who practiced obedience it by faith, and a curse for those who practiced disobedience to it, so the fact that the law can bring a curse should not be used as an excuse for us to choose death instead of life, but just the opposite.
 
Upvote 0

jten

Member
Aug 20, 2005
24
3
59
✟18,454.00
Faith
In Galatians 2, most translations of the Bible read verse 16 like this:
...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Assuming the Bolded 'the law' is referring to the God's Holy law, in context, the chapters seem to contradict themselves. Saying that the law is perfect, and then saying that it is a curse seems strange.

In the greek translations there is no 'the', (ho, ton, tous etc.) before the word law in verse 16. When referring to it as Christ's law, there is one.
Thoughts?
The context of the Galatian epistle is that Judiazing teachers were leading some at Galatia away from the gospel of Christ back to the OT law of Moses. Some in Galatia had quit obeying the truth (NT gospel) Galatians 3:1 and had fallen from grace (NT) Galatians 5:4. Paul's point to those fallen Galatians was that the OT law cannot totally justify like the NT gospel of Christ can completely justify one before God.

Under the law of Moses they did not have the blood of Christ to remit sins. All they had was the blood of bulls and goats that could not remit sins and there was a remembrance of sins, Hebrews 10:1-4. The only way that OT law allowed one to be completely justified before God was through flawless law keeping. The OT law was not of faith. Galatians 3:12. for under that OT law faith did not matter in being totally justified before God. All that mattered in being completely justified under the OT law was keeping ALL the law perfectly. If the Jew could keep all 600+ OT laws perfectly he would have no sin and could then by totally justified before God. Yet the Jew would always commit a sin leading Paul to say "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:11. Since the Jew could not keep the WHOLE the law perfectly (Galatians 5:3) he could not be totally justified before God.

Therefore the phrase "works of the law" eliminates the work of flawless law keeping required by that OT law of Moses in being totally justified before God, it does NOT eliminate a faithful obedience to God under the NT gospel. Again Paul said "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."....no man is justified by the OT law of Moses for the just shall live by faith. Paul did not say the just shall live by faith alone but faith here includes obedience to the will of God. God is not looking for sinless perfection as required by the OT law but a simple faithful obedience as Abel, Noah and Abraham (Hebrews 11) had. None were perfectly sinless therefore were not be justified by the OT law but all were justified by a faithful obedience.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,022.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The context of the Galatian epistle is that Judiazing teachers were leading some at Galatia away from the gospel of Christ back to the OT law of Moses.

The Judaizers expressed what were wanting Gentiles to do in Acts 15:1, so please cite where the Law of Moses requires all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, or for that matter cite where the Law of Moses requires Jews to become circumcised for the specific purpose of becoming saved, or grant that it is not something that God ever required in the Law of Moses, which leaves it as a man-made requirement, through God did require circumcision for a different purpose. The issue here is that you are failing to distinguish between what is said about man-made works of law and God's holy, righteous, and good Law. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law of Moses is how they knew what things are the sins that they should be repenting of doing, so repentance from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is a central part of the Gospel of Christ. Paul Gospel involved bring the Gentiles to full of obedience in word and in deed (Romans 15:18-19), so repentance from our sins is central part of his Gospel message too.

Some in Galatia had quit obeying the truth (NT gospel) Galatians 3:1 and had fallen from grace (NT) Galatians 5:4. Paul's point to those fallen Galatians was that the OT law cannot totally justify like the NT gospel of Christ can completely justify one before God.

Under the law of Moses they did not have the blood of Christ to remit sins. All they had was the blood of bulls and goats that could not remit sins and there was a remembrance of sins, Hebrews 10:1-4. The only way that OT law allowed one to be completely justified before God was through flawless law keeping. The OT law was not of faith. Galatians 3:12. for under that OT law faith did not matter in being totally justified before God. All that mattered in being completely justified under the OT law was keeping ALL the law perfectly. If the Jew could keep all 600+ OT laws perfectly he would have no sin and could then by totally justified before God. Yet the Jew would always commit a sin leading Paul to say "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:11. Since the Jew could not keep the WHOLE the law perfectly (Galatians 5:3) he could not be totally justified before God.

The Mosaic Law comes with commands for what to do when people failed to obey it perfectly, which would have been pointless if the Law was given to provide the means of becoming justified through perfect obedience, so it is important to understand that the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith and that God never required perfect obedience to the Law of Moses in order to become justified. Abraham was justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8) and obeyed God by that same faith, so God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming justified through perfect obedience when a perfectly good means of becoming justified by faith was already in place. Paul spent a lot of time trying to correct this fundamental misunderstanding of the Law by hammering home the point that obedience to the Law was not about trying to become justified and that we are justified by faith apart from the Law, yet today many people are still making the error of thinking that obedience to the Law was about becoming justified, only they have compounded their error by concluding therefore that their faith has done away with their need to obey the Law, whereas Paul concluded that our faith does not abolish the Law, but rather our faith upholds the Law (Romans 3:27-31). So does your faith uphold the Mosaic Law?

Jesus said that faith is one of the most important aspects of the Law (Matthew 23:23), so God's Law is of faith in Him, while it is man-made works of law which are not because they are of faith in man. Straightforwardly, God said that His Law was given for His people's own good and to prosper us (Deuteronomy 6:24), so those who have faith in God to guide us in how we should rightly live uphold God's Law by faith by living in obedience to it, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). In Hebrews 11, it is full of examples of people who lived by faith by living in obedience to God's commands, so living by faith has never referred to living in some other manner that is not in obedience to God's commands. According to John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham saw his day and was glad, so people in the OT were justified by faith in the Messiah, just as we are.

Therefore the phrase "works of the law" eliminates the work of flawless law keeping required by that OT law of Moses in being totally justified before God, it does NOT eliminate a faithful obedience to God under the NT gospel. Again Paul said "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."....no man is justified by the OT law of Moses for the just shall live by faith. Paul did not say the just shall live by faith alone but faith here includes obedience to the will of God. God is not looking for sinless perfection as required by the OT law but a simple faithful obedience as Abel, Noah and Abraham (Hebrews 11) had. None were perfectly sinless therefore were not be justified by the OT law but all were justified by a faithful obedience.

There is no definitive article in the Greek, so the phrase "works of the law" is literally translated as "work of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as the Law of Moses, but rather Paul used to to refer generally to Jewish oral laws, traditions, fences, and rulings. Getting back to Acts 15:1, the issue was that Isaiah 45:25 says that all Israel will be saved, so a number of Jews mistakenly thought that meant Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes in order to become saved, which meant becoming circumcised, and which meant joining the group that agreed at Sinai to do everything that Moses said (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 5:22-27). Moses had the authority to make rulings about how to obey God's Law, and by the 1st century those who had this authority passed down to them were referred to as sitting in Moses' Seat and it had become a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, fences, and rulings that Jesus referred to as binding heavy burdens on the people (Matthew 23:2-4). So by agreeing to become circumcised, Gentile were agreeing to become Jewish proselytes, to live as Jews according to all of their oral laws, and was doing this all for the purpose of becoming saved. This was what was being rejected in Acts 15 and Galatians. They were not discussing whether Gentiles should by faith obey the Law of the God that they serve.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The Judaizers expressed what were wanting Gentiles to do in Acts 15:1, so please cite where the Law of Moses requires all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, or for that matter cite where the Law of Moses requires Jews to become circumcised for the specific purpose of becoming saved, or grant that it is not something that God ever required in the Law of Moses, which leaves it as a man-made requirement, through God did require circumcision for a different purpose. The issue here is that you are failing to distinguish between what is said about man-made works of law and God's holy, righteous, and good Law. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law of Moses is how they knew what things are the sins that they should be repenting of doing, so repentance from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is a central part of the Gospel of Christ. Paul Gospel involved bring the Gentiles to full of obedience in word and in deed (Romans 15:18-19), so repentance from our sins is central part of his Gospel message too.

It was the Judaizing teachers making the false claim that the Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. Therefore Paul's point to those Galatians was that the OT law of Moses cannot completely justify one before God. Complete justification can be found in the NT gospel not the OT law of Moses therefore those Galatians had fallen from grace for leaving the NT gospel.



Soyeong said:
The Mosaic Law comes with commands for what to do when people failed to obey it perfectly, which would have been pointless if the Law was given to provide the means of becoming justified through perfect obedience, so it is important to understand that the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith and that God never required perfect obedience to the Law of Moses in order to become justified. Abraham was justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8) and obeyed God by that same faith, so God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming justified through perfect obedience when a perfectly good means of becoming justified by faith was already in place. Paul spent a lot of time trying to correct this fundamental misunderstanding of the Law by hammering home the point that obedience to the Law was not about trying to become justified and that we are justified by faith apart from the Law, yet today many people are still making the error of thinking that obedience to the Law was about becoming justified, only they have compounded their error by concluding therefore that their faith has done away with their need to obey the Law, whereas Paul concluded that our faith does not abolish the Law, but rather our faith upholds the Law (Romans 3:27-31). So does your faith uphold the Mosaic Law?

Jesus said that faith is one of the most important aspects of the Law (Matthew 23:23), so God's Law is of faith in Him, while it is man-made works of law which are not because they are of faith in man. Straightforwardly, God said that His Law was given for His people's own good and to prosper us (Deuteronomy 6:24), so those who have faith in God to guide us in how we should rightly live uphold God's Law by faith by living in obedience to it, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). In Hebrews 11, it is full of examples of people who lived by faith by living in obedience to God's commands, so living by faith has never referred to living in some other manner that is not in obedience to God's commands. According to John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham saw his day and was glad, so people in the OT were justified by faith in the Messiah, just as we are.

Under the NT gospel we have the blood of Christ to remit all sins whereby God remembers sins no more.

Yet for those that lived under the OT law of Moses did not have the blood of Christ, but the blood of bulls and goats that could not remit all sins and there was a remembrance of sins (Hebrews 10:1-4). So in what way could one under the OT law ever be completely justified before God? Therefore the only way a Jew could be completely justified before God was by flawless law keeping. Since sin is transgression of the law, therefore if the Jew could keep all OT law perfectly then he would have no sin and not having any sin he could then stand before God totally justified. This is the ONLY means one could ever by totally justified before God under the OT law. Yet the Jew would always eventually sin making complete justification under the OT law impossible. This is why Paul would say in Gal 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,..." for no man could keep that OT law perfectly.

Other points Paul made to those Galatains that the OT law cannot justify the before God:

Gal 5:3 "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

Justification required on to keep the WHOLE law perfectly. Those Galatians could not just be circumcised and keep a few of the OT laws to be jsutified before God but must keep all of it....perfectly...flawlessly.

Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Not keeping the whole OT law perfectly brought a curse upon the Jew. The impossibility of not being able to do "all things" made total justification before God impossible.

Gal 3:12 "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."

Paul plainly says the law is NOT OF FAITH. Again, total, complete justification under the OT law required flawless keeping of all the law. The reason no man under the law is not justified before God (verse 11) and the reason the law is not of faith is found in verse 10> "Cursed is every one that CONTINUETH NOT IN ALL THINGS..of the law"
Paul quotes Leviticus 18:5 here in verse 12 showing, to be totally justified under the OT law, faith did not matter.... just do the law and live. As Paul puts it "the man that doeth them (all OT laws) shall live in them".

But God was never looking for those OT characters to be justified by perfect adherence to the law but be justified by an obedient faith as Abraham had. Paul told those Galatians "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us..." Christ took the OT law out of the way on His cross replacing it with His NT law that does not required flawless law keeping to be totally, completely justified but a simple obedient faith. Paul's point to those Galatians is why do you want to go to the OT law to find justification when you cannot be justified before God by that law that requires sinless perfection but can be justified by the NT gospel by an simple obedient faith

Soyeong said:
There is no definitive article in the Greek, so the phrase "works of the law" is literally translated as "work of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as the Law of Moses, but rather Paul used to to refer generally to Jewish oral laws, traditions, fences, and rulings. Getting back to Acts 15:1, the issue was that Isaiah 45:25 says that all Israel will be saved, so a number of Jews mistakenly thought that meant Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes in order to become saved, which meant becoming circumcised, and which meant joining the group that agreed at Sinai to do everything that Moses said (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 5:22-27). Moses had the authority to make rulings about how to obey God's Law, and by the 1st century those who had this authority passed down to them were referred to as sitting in Moses' Seat and it had become a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, fences, and rulings that Jesus referred to as binding heavy burdens on the people (Matthew 23:2-4). So by agreeing to become circumcised, Gentile were agreeing to become Jewish proselytes, to live as Jews according to all of their oral laws, and was doing this all for the purpose of becoming saved. This was what was being rejected in Acts 15 and Galatians. They were not discussing whether Gentiles should by faith obey the Law of the God that they serve.

Again, Paul's point to those Galatian Gentiles is why do you want to think you can be totally justified before God by the OT law when you CANNOT....no man is justified by the law before God...when you CAN be totally justified before God by the gospel of Christ.

A mistake many make is they claim NO WORKS of any kind justifies one bofore God when Paul is limiting "works" here to works of the OT law and NOT eliminating a faithful obedience
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,022.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
It was the Judaizing teachers making the false claim that the Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. Therefore Paul's point to those Galatians was that the OT law of Moses cannot completely justify one before God. Complete justification can be found in the NT gospel not the OT law of Moses therefore those Galatians had fallen from grace for leaving the NT gospel.

There is an important theme that we must obey God rather than man, so we must be careful not to take something that was only against obey man's laws and being against obeying God's Law. As such, if what the Judaizers were wanting to require Gentiles to do isn't required by the God's Law, then it would be a mistake to take an argument that was against a man-made requirement as being an argument against obeying God's Law. Paul made the point that we aren't justified by the Mosaic Law, but the Law was never given for that purpose in the first place, and trying to become justified by obeying the Law has always been a fundamental misunderstanding and a perversion of it. It does not follow that because we don't need to obey God's commands in order to become justified that therefore don't need to obey them.

Under the NT gospel we have the blood of Christ to remit all sins whereby God remembers sins no more.

Yet for those that lived under the OT law of Moses did not have the blood of Christ, but the blood of bulls and goats that could not remit all sins and there was a remembrance of sins (Hebrews 10:1-4). So in what way could one under the OT law ever be completely justified before God? Therefore the only way a Jew could be completely justified before God was by flawless law keeping. Since sin is transgression of the law, therefore if the Jew could keep all OT law perfectly then he would have no sin and not having any sin he could then stand before God totally justified. This is the ONLY means one could ever by totally justified before God under the OT law. Yet the Jew would always eventually sin making complete justification under the OT law impossible.

Again, the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith and justification through perfect obedience to God's Law was never a means that was offered. If it were possible for someone to live in perfect obedience to the Law yet without having faith, then they still would not be justified because justification comes only through faith. Abraham was justified by faith and he looked forward in faith to Messiah's day and was glad (John 8:56), so people of the OT were justified by faith in the same way we are, which means that they lived in obedience to God's Law by the same faith, as we should.

This is why Paul would say in Gal 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,..." for no man could keep that OT law perfectly.

Other points Paul made to those Galatains that the OT law cannot justify the before God:

Gal 5:3 "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

Justification required on to keep the WHOLE law perfectly. Those Galatians could not just be circumcised and keep a few of the OT laws to be jsutified before God but must keep all of it....perfectly...flawlessly.

Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Not keeping the whole OT law perfectly brought a curse upon the Jew. The impossibility of not being able to do "all things" made total justification before God impossible.

Gal 3:12 "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."

Paul plainly says the law is NOT OF FAITH. Again, total, complete justification under the OT law required flawless keeping of all the law. The reason no man under the law is not justified before God (verse 11) and the reason the law is not of faith is found in verse 10> "Cursed is every one that CONTINUETH NOT IN ALL THINGS..of the law"
Paul quotes Leviticus 18:5 here in verse 12 showing, to be totally justified under the OT law, faith did not matter.... just do the law and live. As Paul puts it "the man that doeth them (all OT laws) shall live in them".

I made the point in the post that you responded to that the phrase "works of law" does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as the Law of Moses and the Book of the Law, which you seem to have ignored. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was speak about works of law, which are not of faith, and contrasting it with the Book of the Law, which is of faith in God (Matthew 23:23). Those who relied on man-made works of the law were not living by faith in God and thus were failing to do everything in the Book of the Law. I made that point that Hebrews 11 is full of examples of people who lived by faith by living in obedience to God's commands, so obedience to the Book of the Law is how the righteous live by faith. The works of the law are not of faith, but rather and the one who obeys the Law shall live by it by faith.

I also showed in the post that you responded to how the Mosaic Law was straightforwardly of faith in God to lead us in how we should live. However. if you nevertheless insist on continuing to Paul as speaking about the Mosaic Law not being of faith, then you would be interpreting him as directly contradicting Jesus, so you would need to make a decision about who has the greater authority and who to follow. I again made the point in my previous post that those Gentiles who were agreeing to become circumcised were becoming Jewish proselytes and were agree to live as Jews according to all of their man-made oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences, and this is the same point Paul was making in Galatians 5:3.

But God was never looking for those OT characters to be justified by perfect adherence to the law but be justified by an obedient faith as Abraham had. Paul told those Galatians "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us..." Christ took the OT law out of the way on His cross replacing it with His NT law that does not required flawless law keeping to be totally, completely justified but a simple obedient faith. Paul's point to those Galatians is why do you want to go to the OT law to find justification when you cannot be justified before God by that law that requires sinless perfection but can be justified by the NT gospel by an simple obedient faith

I completely agree that God was never looking for anyone in the OT to become justified by perfect adherence to the Law, but to become justified by the same faith Abraham had, and by the same faith Abraham lived in obedience to God's commands. According to Deuteronomy 30:15-30, the Law brings life and a blessing for obedience and death and a curse for disobedience, so being set free from the curse of the Law is being set free from living in disobedience to it so that we can be free to live a life of blessing in obedience to it.

Jesus was born under the Law and according to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add or subtract to it, so if you think that Jesus disagreed with what the Father commanded and replaced the OT Law with his own, then you should consider him to have sinned and you should therefore not consider him to be your Savior. On the contrary, Jesus said that not the least part would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished, and he gave a warning to those who would relax the leasts part of the law or teach other to do so (Matthew 5:17-19). Jesus said that his teachings was not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so he did not add his own commands, but rather he fully taught obedience to the Mosaic Law, and even if he had said nothing, he would have taught full obedience to it by example, and we are told to follow his example. Again, the OT Law never requires flawless keeping in order to become justified, but rather they were justified by faith and by the same faith they lived in obedience to the Law.

A mistake many make is they claim NO WORKS of any kind justifies one bofore God when Paul is limiting "works" here to works of the OT law and NOT eliminating a faithful obedience

It appears that you have a grasp on the concept of faithful obedience or the obedience that faith requires, but it seems odd to me that you contrasted that with the OT Law instead of also apply that concept to OT Law. We have not been justified by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them (Ephesians 2:8-10) and it is OT Scripture that equips us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The Mosaic Law was given as instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good and how to avoid sin (Romans 7:12, Romans 7:7) and our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and trained to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful. (Titus 2:11-13). Furthermore Titus 2:14 does not say that Christ gave himself to redeem us from the Law, but to redeem us from Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are zealous for doing good works, which is why the Jews in Acts 21:20 became zealous for the Law.
 
Upvote 0

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
There is an important theme that we must obey God rather than man, so we must be careful not to take something that was only against obey man's laws and being against obeying God's Law. As such, if what the Judaizers were wanting to require Gentiles to do isn't required by the God's Law, then it would be a mistake to take an argument that was against a man-made requirement as being an argument against obeying God's Law. Paul made the point that we aren't justified by the Mosaic Law, but the Law was never given for that purpose in the first place, and trying to become justified by obeying the Law has always been a fundamental misunderstanding and a perversion of it. It does not follow that because we don't need to obey God's commands in order to become justified that therefore don't need to obey them.

I agree that those Judiazing teachers were pushing their own false agenda and were getting some of those in Galatia caught up in their false teachings.


Soyeong said:
Again, the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith and justification through perfect obedience to God's Law was never a means that was offered. If it were possible for someone to live in perfect obedience to the Law yet without having faith, then they still would not be justified because justification comes only through faith. Abraham was justified by faith and he looked forward in faith to Messiah's day and was glad (John 8:56), so people of the OT were justified by faith in the same way we are, which means that they lived in obedience to God's Law by the same faith, as we should.

Flawless law keeping was the only way the OT law allowed one to be completely justified before God. Yet the problem with this was the Jew would eventually sin bringing the curse of the law upon himself. Therefore Paul was said by the law no man is justified in the sight of God.

Paul showed to his Jewish Christians in Rome how Abraham was justified by faith and not by works of the OT law...

Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

The word "worketh" used in the above verses refers to the OT work of flawless law keeping that OT law required for complete justification before God. Therefore what verse 4 shows is when one worked to keep the law flawlessly then his reward is not of grace but is debt. If one worked to keep the law perfectly then he would have no sin and therefore not in need of grace so his reward would be what God would owe him for his flawless law keeping.


Yet in verse 5 we see that Abraham was one that "worketh not". This means Abraham did not work in keep the OT law flawlessly. So instead of being justified by this flawless law keeping he was justified by faith. His faith was not perfectly sinless but it was obedient enough for God to justify him. Furthermore, Paul points out Abraham was not even under the OT law of Moses for he was justified in UNcircumcision.

So after Paul spends the first 3 chapters of Romans proving both Gentiles and Jews have sinned and are all under sin, in Romans 4 Paul chooses a Gentile (Abraham) and Jew (David) to show his Jewish readers in Rome how neither were justified by that OT law but by an obedient faith. In Romans 7 Paul further shows his Jewish reader the sinfulness of leaving the NT gospel to go back to that OT law of Moses. At this point in time of the churches history, Jews converted to Christianity but there was a major problem with their backsliding to the law of Moses and Paul here in Romans and in his Galatian epistle, Paul is proving how the OT law cannot completely justify so they had better stay under the NT law that can completely justify


Soyeong said:
I made the point in the post that you responded to that the phrase "works of law" does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as the Law of Moses and the Book of the Law, which you seem to have ignored. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was speak about works of law, which are not of faith, and contrasting it with the Book of the Law, which is of faith in God (Matthew 23:23). Those who relied on man-made works of the law were not living by faith in God and thus were failing to do everything in the Book of the Law. I made that point that Hebrews 11 is full of examples of people who lived by faith by living in obedience to God's commands, so obedience to the Book of the Law is how the righteous live by faith. The works of the law are not of faith, but rather and the one who obeys the Law shall live by it by faith.

Works of the law does refer to the law of Moses. And Paul's point to those Galatians were were being led to that law away from the NT law was that OT law cannot justify you. It requires one to not only keep the WHOLE of it but it must be kept perfectly for one to be completely justified. Therefore justification comes by living by an obedient faith according to the NT gospel.

So when Paul said the law is not of faith, he was for a fact referring to the OT law of Moses.

Point to note:
Faith was part of the OT law yet faith under that law could not completely justify anyone. They did not have the blood of Christ to take away all sins only the blood of bulls and goats and there was a remebrance of sins so they could be totally justified. A Jew under that law could have all the faith in the world, yet when that Jew sinned he had no way for that sin to be completely remitted without the blood of Christ therefore could not find complete justification by faith. So the only way to find COMPLETE justification under that OT law was by flawless, perfect law keeping where one would have no sin at all thereby he could then stand before God completely justified for not having sinned. Again, though faith was part of the OT law as you point out, faith could not ever completely justify one in the sight of God hence the law was not of faith as Paul said.


Soyoeng said:
I also showed in the post that you responded to how the Mosaic Law was straightforwardly of faith in God to lead us in how we should live. However. if you nevertheless insist on continuing to Paul as speaking about the Mosaic Law not being of faith, then you would be interpreting him as directly contradicting Jesus, so you would need to make a decision about who has the greater authority and who to follow. I again made the point in my previous post that those Gentiles who were agreeing to become circumcised were becoming Jewish proselytes and were agree to live as Jews according to all of their man-made oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences, and this is the same point Paul was making in Galatians 5:3.

Again, when Paul said the OT law was not of faith, it was based on the fact that faith under the OT law could never completely rid one of his all sins where he could stand before God totally justified. All they had was the blood of bulls and goats that cannot remit all of one sins and there was a remembrance of sins (Hebrews 10:1-4) and faith under the OT law could not change this. Therefore the only way that OT law allowed one to stand before God sinless/completely justified was by flawless law keeping.


Soyeong said:
I completely agree that God was never looking for anyone in the OT to become justified by perfect adherence to the Law, but to become justified by the same faith Abraham had, and by the same faith Abraham lived in obedience to God's commands. According to Deuteronomy 30:15-30, the Law brings life and a blessing for obedience and death and a curse for disobedience, so being set free from the curse of the Law is being set free from living in disobedience to it so that we can be free to live a life of blessing in obedience to it.

In Romans 4 Paul shows how Abraham was justified by an obedient faith. Therefore Abraham was not justified by the work of flawless law keeping the OT law required. Paul further shows Abraham was not even under the law to be justified by it for he was justified in uncircumcision not in circumcision as the law of Moses required. David likewise justified by an obedient faith for he obviously was not perfectly sinless to be completely justified as the OT law required. So Paul's point to Jewish converts was not to leave the nT gospel and backslide to the OT law of Moses for that law cannot completely justify you before God.


Soyeong said:
Jesus was born under the Law and according to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add or subtract to it, so if you think that Jesus disagreed with what the Father commanded and replaced the OT Law with his own, then you should consider him to have sinned and you should therefore not consider him to be your Savior. On the contrary, Jesus said that not the least part would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished, and he gave a warning to those who would relax the leasts part of the law or teach other to do so (Matthew 5:17-19). Jesus said that his teachings was not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so he did not add his own commands, but rather he fully taught obedience to the Mosaic Law, and even if he had said nothing, he would have taught full obedience to it by example, and we are told to follow his example. Again, the OT Law never requires flawless keeping in order to become justified, but rather they were justified by faith and by the same faith they lived in obedience to the Law.

God sent Christ to earth to make a change in laws and that is what Christ died when He died on the cross, he took away the first to establish the second. Hebrews 7:12; Hebrews 10:9. Paul's point to Jewish converts in Romans in Romans 7 is as Christians they are married to Christ and His NT. Therefore keeping the Law of Moses and the law of Christ is like the adulteress woman having two husbands at the same time. Yet Christ's death made me dead to the law of Moses freeing me to be married to Him and His NT just like if the woman's husband is dead she then is freed to be married to another man.


Soyeong said:
It appears that you have a grasp on the concept of faithful obedience or the obedience that faith requires, but it seems odd to me that you contrasted that with the OT Law instead of also apply that concept to OT Law. We have not been justified by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them (Ephesians 2:8-10) and it is OT Scripture that equips us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The Mosaic Law was given as instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good and how to avoid sin (Romans 7:12, Romans 7:7) and our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and trained to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful. (Titus 2:11-13). Furthermore Titus 2:14 does not say that Christ gave himself to redeem us from the Law, but to redeem us from Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are zealous for doing good works, which is why the Jews in Acts 21:20 became zealous for the Law.


Points I do make:
---No one is justified by simply doing good works, but is justified by an obedient faith in doing the will of God.

---faith under the OT law could not completely justify anyone in the sight of God therefore the law was not of faith in finding total, complete justification
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,022.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Question: If you were a Jew living at the time of David under the law of Moses, how could you under that law ever stand before God totally, completely justified?

According to Romans 4:1-8, Abraham and David were justified by faith, which is the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified, so people during that time were justified by faith, just as we are, and by the same faith they lived in obedience to God's Law, just as we should.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0