The law before Moses?

[LoveGodsWord]

That second commandment!

Matthew 22:40
On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

Jesus called it a commandment.

Yes that is what I said. Love is not separate from God's LAW it sums it up and is why JESUS says "ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS OF LOVE TO GOD AND MAN, HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40. As posted earlier this is shown also in ROMANS 13:8-10 where PAUL shows how love is expressed through God's 10 commandments...

ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.

Note: the Greek word used here for FULFILLED G4137 πληρόω; plēroō means to execute and to satisfy; to accomplish; to perfect; to complete; to perfect or to supply or give. The context is the law nomos; application and context is the 10 commandments.

[9], For this, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

James shows the same thoughts here how love sums up God's LAW...

JAMES 2:8-11 [8], IF YOU FULFILL THE ROYAL LAW ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, YOU DO WELL: [9], But IF YOU HAVE RESPECT TO PERSONS, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS. [10], FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. Now if you COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.

Love is expressed through God's LAW and is why JESUS says if you love me keep my commandmenets *JOHN 14:15. This is why we all need a new heart to love which is God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Love is not separate from God's LAW as love is expressed in action. This is what LEVITICUS 19:18 and DEUTERONOMY 6:5 is referring to which JESUS quotes in MATTHEW 22:36-40. This is God' commandment because it is referring to God's commandments as it sums them up as shown in ROMANS 13:8-10

 

[Bob S]

PAUL shows how love is expressed through God's 10 commandments...

Not really

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not covet,’ and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ 10 Love does no harm to a neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law.

I posted Rom 13: 8-10 to show that it does not say that the ten commandments say anything about love. That is a complete misnomer, false and misleading. Listed below are the ten commandments and there is nothing in them about love. Even the fifth command about parents only says to honor them. The greatest commands in the Bible are not found in the ten, Love.

7 ‘You shall have no other gods before me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

11 ‘You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labour and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

16 ‘Honour your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

17 ‘You shall not murder.

18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.

19 ‘You shall not steal.

20 ‘You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour.

21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbour’s house or land, his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.’

All of the above commands are either You shall nots, remember or honor. The ten commandments were about duty to God and duty to their fellow man. They were to do those commands out of their love to God.

Paul named the ten commandments the Ministry of death and wrote that they were only temporary commands. The Royal Law of Love prompted by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the guide given to us by our Savior Jesus Christ. No one with their long posts full of texts that have no or little relation to the subject will ever convince me that I am under any of the ritual or ceremonial laws of the old covenant. Telling us we are and believing things like the following are only disgusting and reek of falsehood.

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4} I copied that from Ellen G. White Writings in Multiple Languages a website of the SDA Church.

 

[safswan]

No. God made a covenant with conditions with Noah. It was nothing like the Law given to Moses.

Exodus 16:
28And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

The above statement is very instructive and begs the questions:

Which commandments and laws?If God had not yet spoken at Sinai nor yet written on the tablets of stone then to which commandments and laws are He referring to?

I agree that he may not be referring to every commandment and law but this was at least in reference to the Sabbath commandment.The exact time that had elapsed since they left Egypt is debatable but this could not be the,"how long", being referred to.


There are several reasons why God's question about how long, could not be in reference to the short time they had been out of Egypt.It was a reference to what Israel specifically should have been doing while in Egypt and a hint of what the human race in general should have been doing also.


There are several practices seen in scripture of which we do not see an initial command concerning them but we know that God must have given such commands.For example:

How did Cain and Able know they should make offerings to the Lord?(Genesis 4:3-5)

How did Noah know the difference between clean and unclean beasts?When was this distinction made?(Genesis 7:1,2)

Why did Cain attempt to hide the death of Abel from the Lord?Did the Lord punish him for something, which he was not aware of as being wrong?(Genesis 4:8-13)

What caused Noah to be viewed as righteous while the world which was destroyed,called evil and wicked?(Genesis 6:5-8;7:1)

All these and more, points to commands and instructions being given, which were not recorded by the writers of scripture.To argue that; " These commandments had not been given to anyone prior to this time", would be an argument from silence, which, based on the above examples,would not be a proper way to study the scriptures.


It is clear that Abraham received commandments and laws which he was to teach his children and hence these could not be commands specific to Abraham.(Genesis 18:19;26:3-5)

The covenant made with Israel at Sinai was based on the promises God made to Abraham and his descendants and was not only for those there at the time but was also for all who would serve God acceptably(Deuteronomy 29:1,9-15).The laws given at Sinai or Horeb were as a result of the continuance of the requirements and promises of the covenant made with Abraham.(Psalm 105:6-10,42-45)

Israel in Egypt was expected to continue in the way of the Lord but instead Joshua said:"..and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood,and in Egypt;and serve ye the Lord."(Joshua 24:14)


Careful reading of the events leading up to Sinai shows that some of Israel did know the way of the Lord and were even appointed judges of the people.(Exodus 18:13-16,20-22;1:17)

How was Moses judging and making them know the statutes and laws of God before they were spoken/written at Sinai?


Hence the complaint in Exodus 16:28,was about Israel serving other gods and not keeping the Sabbath and other commands while they were in Egypt and even now they were out.


This is why God had to speak to them from Sinai so they would believe Moses(Exodus 19:9).Yes there were new commands being introduced but many were being taught from what should have been handed down according to the example of Abraham.


Again careful reading of events before Sinai show that actions contrary to the ten commandments were considered to be sinful.

1)Abraham's father and those in Egypt did wrong in serving other gods(Joshua 24:1,2,14).

2)The strange gods in their hands were images which the people served and they could not go up to Bethel until they got rid of them(Genesis 35:1-4).

3)The oath taken by the name of the Lord God of heaven was serious and one had to carry out the oath sworn in order not to be guilty of taking the Lord's name in vain(Genesis 24:1-4,37-41).

4)Man was created just before the creation of the Sabbath.The sabbath was blessed and hallowed at that time.How could man not be required to observe it from that time?Jesus helps to reinforce this as he said the Sabbath was made for man ie.for his benefit and use.The events prior to Sinai also show it was known before God spoke it there.When had the Lord declared the seventh day the Sabbath(Genesis 2:1-3;Mark 2:27;Exodus 16:23-27)?

5)The action of Ham was disrespectful to his father.The curse on his son shows the action of not honouring his parent was wrong(Genesis 9:20-26).

6)The anger of Cain towards his brother drove him to kill him and because of this a curse came upon him(Genesis 4:1-13;I John 3:12-15).

7)Men before the time of Moses knew it was wrong to take another man's wife(Genesis 20:1-9;26:6-11).

8)Jacob pronounced a curse on the one who had stolen Laban's images(Genesis 31:19,30-35).

9)Jacob lied to his father and knew it was wrong as he anticipated a curse(Genesis 27:6-13,19).

10)God was also displeased with the state of men's hearts not only their actions.The evil intent would also include covetousness(Genesis 6:1-6;Mark 7:21-23;James 1:14,15).

The reason why these laws had to be taught to Israel again is because,as in other times,they had lost the knowledge of them for the most part(II Chronicles 34:8-33;Nehemiah 8:1-8).

For any person to serve God acceptably they must learn the righteous ways of Israel(Jeremiah 12:14-17).

The promise of a new covenant was to Israel first and then to the Gentile and the laws of God are to be written in our hearts.Which laws would these be(Hebrews 8:7-10;Romans 1:16;Ephesians 2:11-13,19-22)?

Contrary to popular belief God's standard of love always existed and still continues today.It only because of misunderstandings why many do not realise that the ten commandments are simply an expansion/explanation of love and that just as the nine commonly "observed" by many is not a burden neither is the one commonly ignored(I John 5:1-3;Romans 13:8-10).

safswan.

 

[safswan]

Well, for starters, the Law of Moses (e.g. food laws, festivals, 10 commandments, etc.) was given to Jews and Jews alone - I can argue the point but, to save time, I would invite you to see what Biblical scholars have to say. I will wager that all of them will agree that the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only.

Whereas some,erroneously ascribe the law to Israel only,the scriptures and logical reasoning deny this.


“For there is no respect of persons with God.For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”(Romans 2:11-13)


How could God give this law to His people whom he loved so much and which some claim they could not keep but then preclude Gentiles from this law as some claim?This neither scriptural nor logical and many over the years in recognizing this have taught that the ten commandment law is to be observed and is an essential part of Christian doctrine.Here are some views about the law and ten commandments:



"We believe that the law of God is the eternal and imperishable rule of His moral government."
—Baptist Church Manual.



"The first four commandments set forth man's obligations directly toward God.... The fourth commandment sets forth God's claim on man's time and thought.... Not one of the ten words [commandments] is of merely racial significance.... The Sabbath was established originally [long before Moses] in no special connection with the Hebrews, but as an institution for all mankind, in commemoration of God's rest after six days of creation. It was designed for all the descendants of Adam."
—Adult Quarterly, Southern Baptist Convention series, Aug. 15, 1937.



Q. 46. What did God at first reveal to man for the rule of his obedience?
A. The rule which God at first revealed to man for his obedience was the moral law. (Rom. 2:14,15; 5:13,14)
Q. 47. Where is the moral law summarily comprehended?
A. The moral law is summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments. (Deut. 10:4; Matt. 19:17)
Q. 48. What is the sum of the Ten Commandments?
A. The sum of the Ten Commandments is, to love the Lord our God, with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind; and our neighbor as ourselves. (Matt. 22:36-40; Mark 12:28-33)
Q. 49. What is the preface to the Ten Commandments?
A. The preface to the Ten Commandments is, "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." (Exodus 20:2)
Q. 50. What does the preface to the Ten Commandments teach us?
A. The preface to the Ten Commandments teaches us, that because God is the Lord, and our God and Redeemer, therefore we are bound to keep all His commandments. (Deut 11:1)
—Benjamin Keach's Catechism, 1677




The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
—1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 19, Section 5



Q. (36) What is sin?
A. It is a transgression of the law. I Jn. iii. 4.
Q. (37) A transgression of what law?
A. Of the law of our nature, and of the law of the ten commandments as written in the holy scriptures. Ro. ii. 12-15. Ex. xx,
Q. (38) When doth one sin against the law of nature?
A. When you do anything that your conscience tells you is a transgression against God or man. Ru. ii. 14, 15.
Q. (39) When do we sin against the law as written in the ten commandments?
A. When you do anything that they forbid, although you be ignorant of it. Ps. xix. 12.
Q. (40) How many ways are there to sin against this law?
A. Three: by sinful thoughts, by sinful words, and also by sinful actions. Ro. vii. 7; ii. 6. Mat. v. 28; xii. 37.
Q. (41) What if we sin but against one of the ten commandments?
A. Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all; ?For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now, if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.? Ja. ii. 10, 11.
—John Bunyan's Catechism




Of John Smyth:
He believed that 'the Magistrates should cause all men to worship the true God'and enforce both tables of the Ten Commandments. (THEOLOGICAL POSITIONS OF JOHN SMYTH)


These are just a few of the comments, from chiefly one denomination, which show the way the ten commandments were viewed. The problems which developed later in time was as a result of how the Sabbath was to be treated. Was there a new Sabbath instituted in Sunday or was the Sabbath now converted to the Lord’s Day or is the Sabbath now in Christ since He is our rest? These varying views, I believe led to many speaking against the law in general in order to eliminate this dilemma and have led to many divorcing themselves from the ten commandments in order to “escape” from the Sabbath.When confronted about why they observe nine of the ten they say:


“There are many places in the New Testament that make it clear that murder is a sin even if the Old Testament had never been written….I am one who claims to keep nine out of ten, and it's because I can find in the New Testament where it clearly tells me that nine of them are commanded for me, as a Christian, to keep. In fact, five of them are spoken by Jesus in Matt 19.”


The fact is, the early believers were more accurate and sincere in their beliefs and about the law and ten commandments and some did see the truth about the Sabbath while others simply stuck to what was traditional and which did not cause contention and upheaval in their systems of belief. However we need to be honest with the scriptures and ourselves and let the chips fall where they will and then deal with the consequences of the same.

safswan.

 

[safswan]

Well, for starters, the Law of Moses (e.g. food laws, festivals, 10 commandments, etc.) was given to Jews and Jews alone - I can argue the point but, to save time, I would invite you to see what Biblical scholars have to say. I will wager that all of them will agree that the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only.

The views of Tyndale are also supportive of the law and ten commandments as being a part of the Christian doctrine.


William Tyndale in; A Pathway to the Holy Scripture:

“For when the evangelion [the gospel] is preached, [upon repentance and baptism] the Spirit of God enters into them which God has ordained and appointed unto eternal life; and opened their inward eyes, and works such belief in them. When the woeful consciences feel and taste how sweet a thing the bitter death of Christ is, and how merciful and loving God is, through Christ's purchasing and merits; they begin to love again, and to consent to the law of God, how that it is good and ought so to be, and that God is righteous which made it; and we desire to fulfill the law, even as a sick man desires to be whole, and hunger and thirst after more righteousness, and after more strength, to fulfill the law more perfectly. And in all that they do, or omit and leave undone, they seek God’s honor and his will with meekness, ever condemning the imperfectness of their deeds by the law”
“Now Christ stands us in double stead; and us serves, in two ways. First, he is our Redeemer, Deliverer, Reconciler, Mediator, Intercessor, Advocate, Attorney, Solicitor, our Hope, Comfort, Shield, Protection, Defender, Strength, Health, Satisfaction and Salvation. His blood, his death, all that he ever did, is ours. And Christ himself, with all that he is or can do, is ours. His blood-shedding, and all that he did, does me as good service as though I myself had done it. And God (as great as he is) is mine, with all that he has, [as a husband is his wife’s,] through Christ and his purchasing. Secondarily, after that we be overcome with love and kindness, and now seek to do the will of God (which is a Christian man’s nature), then have we Christ an example to imitate; as says Christ him-self in John, ‘I have given you an example.’ And in another evangelist he says, ‘He that will be great among you, shall be your servant and minister; as the Son of man came to minister, and not to be ministered unto.’ And Paul says, ‘Imitate Christ’ ” (Parker Society, pp. 17-20).



“The general covenant wherein all other are comprehended and included, is this. If we meek ourselves to God to keep all his laws after the example of Christ: then God has bound himself unto us to keep and make good all the mercies promised in Christ, throughout all the scripture. All the whole law which was given to expose our corrupt nature, is comprehended in the ten commandments. And the ten commandments are comprehended in these two: love God and your neighbor. And he that loves his neighbor in God and Christ, fulfills these two, and consequently the ten, and finally all the other ...” (David Daniell, Tyndale’s New Testament, Modern Spelling, W. T. Unto the Reader, pp. 3-4, bold emphasis and bracketed comments added).



“Now if any man that submits not himself to keep the commandments, do think that he has any faith in God: the same man’s faith is vain, worldly, damnable, devilish and plain presumption, as it is above said, and is no faith that can justify or be accepted before God. And that is what James means in his Epistle. For how can a man believe says Paul, without a preacher (Rom. 10). Now read all the scripture and see where God sent any to preach mercy to any, save unto them only that repent and turn to God with all their hearts, to keep his commandments. Unto the disobedient that will not turn, is threatened, wrath, vengeance and damnation, according to all the terrible curses and fearful examples of the Bible. Faith now in God the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ, according to the covenants and appointment made between God and us, is our salvation ...” (Ibid., pp. 4-5).



“Also you see that two things are required to begin a Christian man. The first is a steadfast faith and trust in almighty God, to obtain all the mercy that He has promised us, through the deserving and merits of Christ’s blood only, without all respect to our own works. And the other is, that we forsake evil and turn to God, to keep His laws and fight against ourselves and our corrupt nature perpetually, that we may do the will of God every day better and better.This have I said (most dear reader) to warn you, lest you should be deceived, and should not only read the scripture in vain and to no profit, but also unto your greater damnation. For the nature of God’s word is, that whosoever read it or hear it reasoned and disputed before him, it will begin immediately to make him every day better and better, till he be grown into a perfect man in the knowledge of Christ and the love of the law of God: or else make him worse and worse, till he be hardened that he openly resist the spirit of God, and then blaspheme, after the example of Pharaoh, Coza [Cora, Numbers 16], Abi-ram, Balaam, Judas, Simon Magus and such other” (Ibid., p. 5, bold emphasis added).




“These things to know: first, the law; how that it is natural right, and equity; that we have but one God to put our hope and trust in, and him to love with all the heart, all the soul, and all our might and power, and neither to move heart nor hand but at his commandment,because he has first created us of nothing, and heaven and earth for our sakes; and afterwards when we had marred our self through sin, he forgave us, and created us again, in the blood of his beloved Son: And that we have the name of our one God in fear and reverence; and that we dishonor it not, in swearing thereby about light trifles or vanity, or call it to record for the confirming of wickedness or falsehood, or aught [anything] that is to the dishonor of God, which is the breaking of his laws, or unto the hurt of our neighbor: And inasmuch as He is our Lord and God, and we His double possession, by creation and redemption, and therefore we ought (as I said) neither to move heart or hand without his commandment; it is right that we have needful holy days to come together, and learn his will, both the law which he will have us ruled by, and also the promises of mercy which he will have us trust unto;and to give God thanks together for his mercy, and to commit our infirmities to Him through our Savior Jesus, and to reconcile ourselves unto Him, and each to other, if [anything] be between brother and brother that requires it. And for this purpose and such like,as to visit the sick and needy, and redress peace and unity, were the holy days ordained only; and so far forth are they to be kept holy from all manner works that may be conveniently spared for the time, till this be done [the observing of the holy day], and no further, but [after the holy day] then lawfully to work” (Parker Society, 1968, Tyndale, Pathway Into the Holy Scripture, pp. 24-25, bold emphasis and bracketed comments added).




“And even so he that trusts in any thing, save in God only and in his Son Jesus Christ, keeps no commandment at all, in the sight of God. For he that has trust in any creature, whether in heaven or in earth, save in God and his Son Jesus, can see no cause to love God with all his heart ... neither to abstain from dishonoring his name, nor to keep the holy day for the love of his doctrine, nor to obey lovingly the rulers of this world; nor any cause to love his neighbor as himself, and to abstain from hurting him, where he may get profit by him, and save himself harmless. And in like wise, against this law, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,’ I may obey no worldly power, to do [anything] at any man's commandmentunto the hurt of my neighbor that has not de-served it, though he be a Turk: And to know how contrary this law is unto our nature, and how it is damnation not to have this law written in our hearts, though we never commit the deeds; and how there is no other means to be saved from this damnation, than through repentance toward the law, and faith in Christ's blood; which are the very inward baptism of our souls, and the washing and the dipping of our bodies in the water is the outward sign. The plunging of the body under the water signifies that we repent and profess to fight against sin and lusts, and to kill them every day more and more, with the help of God, and our diligence in following the doctrine of Christ and the leading of his Spirit; and that we believe to be washed from our natural damnation in which we are born, and from all the wrath of the law, and from all the infirmities and weaknesses that remain in us after we have given our consent unto the law, and yielded our self to be scholars thereof; and from all the imperfectness of all our deeds done with cold love, and from all actual sin which shall chance on us, while we enforce the contrary and ever fight there against, and hope to sin no more.” (Ibid., Society, pp. 26-27, bold emphasis added)




safswan.

 

[expos4ever]

Whereas some,erroneously ascribe the law to Israel only,the scriptures and logical reasoning deny this.
“For there is no respect of persons with God.For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”(Romans 2:11-13)

I don't see how this text supports your view, and, in fact, it directly contradicts it: those who are "without the Law" are Gentiles - proof that the Law is only for Israel. The fact that Gentile will be judged and found to be sinful does not mean they are under the Law of Moses.

 

[expos4ever]

Q. (36) What is sin?
A. It is a transgression of the law. I Jn. iii. 4.

Translation issue. Here is how this text is translated in the NASB, a translation known for its accuracy:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

See the difference? In this translation, the author merely declares that sin is lawlessness - a general term that need be connected to the Law of Moses in particular.

 

[expos4ever]

How could God give this law to His people whom he loved so much and which some claim they could not keep but then preclude Gentiles from this law as some claim?This neither scriptural nor logical and many over the years in recognizing this have taught that the ten commandment law is to be observed and is an essential part of Christian doctrine.Here are some views about the law and ten commandments

While I think it is astonishing that people do not know that the Law of Moses applied only to Israel (since this is so clear from both Testaments), I think I understand the "spirit" of your point here.

It appears that you believe that if we do not have the Law of Moses, and in particular the 10 commandments, that this means that it would be OK to commit murder, adultery, etc. And then why would the Gentiles be not told about these "rules"?

No one is saying this. In fact, Paul is clear that the Holy Spirit now guides us - we no longer need the Law. But, of course, it is wrong for both Jews and Gentiles to commit murder, adultery, etc. It is just that now we have the Spirit.

 

[safswan]

I don't see how this text supports your view, and, in fact, it directly contradicts it: those who are "without the Law" are Gentiles - proof that the Law is only for Israel. The fact that Gentile will be judged and found to be sinful does not mean they are under the Law of Moses.

You misunderstand/misrepresent the passage and are twisting it to suit your beliefs.

Your theory implies that Gentiles were a law to themselves and God would punish them for this. Why?

Does being without the law mean not being subject to?

The judgement of the people of Canaan is a clear indication they should have been doing what Israel was being reminded of, instead of the abominations God charged them with.(Leviticus 18:24-30)

A consideration of these points should lead you away from the manner in which you have interpreted the passage in question.

The fact is the passage is clearly saying:

There is no one exempt from the law of God.(no respecter of persons)

Those without the law and who have sinned by transgressing this law will perish.

Those who have the law will be judged according to their handling of the same.If they also have sinned then they too will perish.No respecter of persons.

The conclusion is that,it is the doers of the law,whether with or without the law,who will be accepted by God.The constant is the law and our fate is determined by how we treat the same and not by what nationality we are.(no respecter of persons)

 

[safswan]

Translation issue. Here is how this text is translated in the NASB, a translation known for its accuracy:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

See the difference? In this translation, the author merely declares that sin is lawlessness - a general term that need be connected to the Law of Moses in particular.

This is a red herring and does not address the point being made.However to address your misunderstanding,answer these questions:

What is it that defines this lawlessness that is referred to?How does one know they are in a state of lawlessness?Is it the law of the land or the law of the Church or something else?

 

[expos4ever]

You misunderstand/misrepresent the passage and are twisting it to suit your beliefs.

No, just reading the text as it is.

Your theory implies that Gentiles were a law to themselves and God would punish them for this. Why?

It is not my theory, it is what Paul says - you will need to ask him:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves

The Gentiles are not subject to the Law of Moses anymore than I, a Canadian, am not subject to American laws against murder. But do I think murder is OK? Of course not.

Does being without the law mean not being subject to?

It simply means that Gentiles were not under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses - it does not apply to them. But that hardly means that it is OK for a Gentile to commit murder!

 

[safswan]

While I think it is astonishing that people do not know that the Law of Moses applied only to Israel (since this is so clear from both Testaments), I think I understand the "spirit" of your point here.

It appears that you believe that if we do not have the Law of Moses, and in particular the 10 commandments, that this means that it would be OK to commit murder, adultery, etc. And then why would the Gentiles be not told about these "rules"?

No one is saying this. In fact, Paul is clear that the Holy Spirit now guides us - we no longer need the Law. But, of course, it is wrong for both Jews and Gentiles to commit murder, adultery, etc. It is just that now we have the Spirit.

Again this does not address the point being made which is an answer to your wager.Remember you said:

"I can argue the point but, to save time, I would invite you to see what Biblical scholars have to say. I will wager that all of them will agree that the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only."

Again questions which could aid your misunderstanding:

Is Gods holy law in opposition to His Spirit?So if the same things in the ten commandments are being observed through the Spirit then why the opposition to them being observed by the actual reading of the law?

 

[safswan]

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves

Are you serious?This means they are being subject to the law which they do not have out of instinct and this is what is pleasing to God.It does not mean they have a law for themselves which is separate from the law given through Israel and which God honours.It is one law which all must obey whether by having the same or by instinct.

 

[expos4ever]

The judgement of the people of Canaan is a clear indication they should have been doing what Israel was being reminded of, instead of the abominations God charged them with.(Leviticus 18:24-30)

I see nothing in this text that indicates the Canaanites were under the Law of Moses. Yes, the Canaanites defiled their land, but they could have done so without being under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses. I hope you are not implicitly buying into this faulty reasoning:

1. The Jew defiles himself by violating the Law of Moses;
2. The Canaanites defiled themselves;
3. Therefore, the Canaanites are under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses.

It cannot be emphasized enough: even though the Gentile is not under the Law of Moses, it does not mean that the Gentile cannot commit sin. In fact, in Romans 1, Paul makes it clear the Gentile world has an "inner moral compass" by which they will be judged.

 

[expos4ever]

This is a red herring and does not address the point being made.However to address your misunderstanding,answer these questions:

What is it that defines this lawlessness that is referred to?How does one know they are in a state of lawlessness?Is it the law of the land or the law of the Church or something else?

It is not a red herring! You and others are cherry-picking translations that make it seem like the text is saying that sin is breaking the Law of Moses. In fact, a literal translation simply says that sin is lawlessness. Surely you must know that the Law of Moses is not the only law out there! If it was, no one who lived before the Law of Moses could be reckoned a sinner.

As Paul says in Romans 1, the Gentile has an "inner moral law". And they are "lawless" against that law, not the Law of Moses.

 

[expos4ever]

"I can argue the point but, to save time, I would invite you to see what Biblical scholars have to say. I will wager that all of them will agree that the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only."

Well, can you name one? Just one reputable scholar who believes that the Law of Moses is for all people. I know one person who believes that the Gentile is not under the Law of Moses. His name is Paul:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law

In other word, the Gentile (who is not under the Law) will be judged even in some manner other than against the Law!

Is Gods holy law in opposition to His Spirit?So if the same things in the ten commandments are being observed through the Spirit then why the opposition to them being observed by the actual reading of the law?

You will have to take it up with Paul:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I suspect the basic answer is this: we know have the indwelling Spirit, so even though, of course, this Spirit will guide us to obey God's will, we no longer need the written code.

 

[expos4ever]

Are you serious?This means they are being subject to the law which they do not have out of instinct and this is what is pleasing to God.It does not mean they have a law for themselves which is separate from the law given through Israel and which God honours.It is one law which all must obey whether by having the same or by instinct.

Paul says they do not have the Law. If you do not have a law, you are not subject to it. Yes, Paul is saying that, in His great wisdom, God has given the Gentile an inner sense of what pleases God. And I am sure that includes things like not murdering or committing adultery. So, yes, it shares the "spirit" of the Law of Moses. But it is not the Law of Moses.

 

[expos4ever]

Are you serious?This means they are being subject to the law which they do not have out of instinct and this is what is pleasing to God.It does not mean they have a law for themselves which is separate from the law given through Israel and which God honours.It is one law which all must obey whether by having the same or by instinct.

What about this:

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

This text is crystal clear - not all are "of the Law".

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord wrote: PAUL shows how love is expressed through God's 10 commandments...

Your response...

Not really8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not covet,’ and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ 10 Love does no harm to a neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law.

I posted Rom 13: 8-10 to show that it does not say that the ten commandments say anything about love. That is a complete misnomer, false and misleading. Listed below are the ten commandments and there is nothing in them about love. Even the fifth command about parents only says to honor them. The greatest commands in the Bible are not found in the ten, Love....

Bob, your only part quoting me here. I posted ROMANS 13:8-10 in support of MATTHEW 22:36-40 and JAMES 2:8-12 to show that when JESUS says "ON THESE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS OF LOVE TO GOD AND MAN HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40, JESUS was quoting from LEVITICUS 19:18 and DEUTERONOMY 6:5 to SUM UP *ROMANS 13:9 how God's 10 Commandments are obeyed and the only way they can be obeyed is through a new heart to love which is God's new covenant promse *HEBREWS 8:10-12 from JEREMIAH 31:31-36.

I am not sure why you cannot see that the very scriptures you are quoting in ROMANS 13:8-10 are actually quoting God's 10 commandments unless your choosing not to see them in these scriptures. As the very scriptures you are quoting are directly quoting from God's 10 commandments showing that obedience to them is how we love our neighbore *LEVITICUS 19:18; MATTHEW 22:36-40. PAUL is showing that obedience to God's LAW is how love is expressed by a new heart through faith *ROMANS 3:31; HEBREWS 8:10' JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 8:4.

ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.

Note: the Greek word used here for FULFILLED G4137 πληρόω; plēroō means to execute and to satisfy; to accomplish; to perfect; to complete; to perfect or to supply or give. The context is the law nomos; application and context is the 10 commandments.

[9], For this, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't see how this text supports your view, and, in fact, it directly contradicts it: those who are "without the Law" are Gentiles - proof that the Law is only for Israel. The fact that Gentile will be judged and found to be sinful does not mean they are under the Law of Moses.

Nope - we already saw that that conclusion does not work in Romans 2 or 3.

============================

Gentiles come in all different flavors --

--gentiles that were simply pagans (as vs those those attending synagogue services as in Acts 13, 17, 18:4 gentiles hearing scripture ) all the gentiles had to guide them was "paganism" .. and the Holy Spirit as He impresses the pagan. Paul calls that state of darkness "without the law" in Romans 2.

Context is everything...particularly when Paul's own clarifying statements remove all doubt in the chapter that apparently "somebody does not want to quote" if it is going to say that all have sinned , all break the law, all need the gospel.

1. It is the GENTILES that are KEEPING the LAW in Romans 2 and Jews breaking it.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.



The Jews had scripture, the Bible, the Word of God... gentiles that were simply pagans and not those attending synagogue services (as in Acts 13, 17, 18:4 gentiles hearing scripture ) all the gentiles had to guide them was "paganism" .. and the Holy Spirit as He impresses the pagan. Paul calls that state of darkness "without the law" in Romans 2.

Context is everything...particularly when Paul's own clarifying statements remove all doubt in the chapter that apparently "somebody does not want to quote" if it is going to say that all have sinned , all break the law, all need the gospel.

Romans 3
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

And what does the WORD of God say?

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (not just jews)

1 John 3:4 "sin is transgression of the law" -- (not ... "just for jews")

Rom 3:19-20 "every mouth" and "all the world" have the problem of sin.. all the world needs salvation "not just Jews"

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:31 "do WE then make void the LAW of God by our faith? on the contrary! We ESTABLISH the LAW"

It appears as though you are arguing against your own point.

I appears you are saying you are happy with my response. How is it that I would complain about you agreeing with me? I am happy to have agreement.