The law before Moses?

[timothyu]

Sure looks like Jesus is imposing a new commandment here also.

Rules or commandments?

 

[klutedavid]

show me where i said that commandment was in the Law or the Prophets.

"Do you agree that the law of Moses is the law of God?"

 

[klutedavid]

Rules or commandments?

Everything Jesus spoke can be considered commandments.

Do you classify divorce as a rule that your free to transgress, because it is a rule?

 

[Dkh587]

"Do you agree that the law of Moses is the law of God?"

Do you agree?

 

[klutedavid]

Do you agree?

Definitely not my friend.

The commandment to believe in Jesus Christ is not listed in the law of Moses. Humanity is sharply divided by God on judgement day into two groups; the sheep and the goats.

Those that believed in Jesus and those that did not believe in Jesus.

 

[Dkh587]

Definitely not my friend.

The commandment to believe in Jesus Christ is not listed in the law of Moses. Humanity is sharply divided by God on judgement day into two groups; the sheep and the goats.

Those that believed in Jesus and those that did not believe in Jesus.

nowhere did I say that commandment was in the law of Moses/God

why do you not agree?

the Prophets, and even Luke certainly agree:

Nehemiah 8:1
and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which Yahweh had commanded to Israel.

Nehemiah 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly

Nehemiah 8:14
And they found written in the law which Yahweh had commanded by Moses

Nehemiah 8:18
Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God

1 Chronicles 16:40
and to do according to all that is written in the law of Yahweh, which he commanded Israel

2 Chronicles 17:9
And they taught in Judah, and had the book of the law of Yahweh with them

2 Chronicles 31:3
as it is written in the law of Yahweh

2 Chronicles 34:14
Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of Yahweh given by Moses

Luke 2:22-24
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to Yahweh, As it is written in the law of Yahweh, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to Yahweh) And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of Yahweh

 

[timothyu]

Sure looks like Jesus is imposing a new commandment here also.

Ok I agree, but I was referring to the two He said were the greatest.

 

[klutedavid]

Ok I agree, but I was referring to the two He said were the greatest.

Those two are merely the greatest commands in the law. You now obey even greater commands than any of the commands in the law.

 

[truthisfreedom2019]

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

It could be possible that because they were slaves they were not used to a day of rest, so taking a day off for rest and respecting it would feel strange.

 

[BobRyan]

It could be possible that because they were slaves they were not used to a day of rest, so taking a day off for rest and respecting it would feel strange.

or... it could be this is the reason

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Exodus 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Deut 5 is 40 years after Exodus 20 and there we find that it starts out by saying NOT to "mess" with anything God told them at Sinai, and they are also given ADDED reasons to comply with God's Word.

Deut 5
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, 5 while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain

...

22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me. 23 And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near to me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders. 24 You said, ‘Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with man, yet he lives.

Deut 5 is not a case of Moses speaking out of the midst of fire, or chiseling new words in stone.

Details.

 

[truthisfreedom2019]

or... it could be this is the reason

What I was meaning was is that he worded it that way possible because of their slavery. Not used to the day of rest which their for fathers knew and had respected. The sabbath was already Holy before the children of Isreal received it; Sanctified by God from the beginning.

 

[BobRyan]

What I was meaning was is that he worded it that way possible because of their slavery. Not used to the day of rest which their for fathers knew and had respected. The sabbath was already Holy before the children of Isreal received it; Sanctified by God from the beginning.

True - however He gets them all lined up with it in Exodus 20 -- which was 40 years earlier and for those 40 years "no manna on Saturday" which means if they did not get it figured out by Deut 5 they were already starving/fasting once a week.

 

[not under law]

Once Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of Good and evil it can be said they knew of God's moral law

 

[timothyu]

Once Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of Good and evil it can be said they knew of God's moral law

Just as Jesus commanded at the end, God at the beginning told Adam and Eve to put His will before their own in telling them to avoid the tree of knowledge. His will before ours, law number one and also the last one given. His will first was not a power trip on his part but a way to protect them, because if they put their will first and ate of the tree there would be consequences that He wished to protect them from. Protecting us from ourselves has always been His motive of putting His will before our own.

 

[expos4ever]

There is some disagreement in this thread about 1 John 3-4. Some versions read something like this:

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness (NIV)

However, other versions have this:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness (NASB)

See the difference? The NIV reads as though the author is talking about the Law of Moses, while the NASB does not require us to conclude that the Law of Moses is at issue here - lawlessness in general is what sin is all about.

What does a literal translation say?

Everyone committing sin also lawlessness commits and sin is lawlessness.

No specificity to the Law of Moses (in line with the NASB translation)

So a literal reading of the original Greek does not, as much as it would suit certain agendas, require to understand sin in terms of breaking the Law of Moses, and only the Law of Moses.

As if that were not otherwise obvious from what Paul says in Romans 1 about how all humanity has an innate awareness of sin.

 

[BobRyan]

There is some disagreement in this thread about 1 John 3-4. Some versions read something like this:

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness (NIV)

However, other versions have this:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness (NASB)

And of course -
KJV -
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Just as we see the NASB doing in James 2

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

See the difference?

Clearly as KJV and NASB show us comparing NASB James 2:8-11 with KJV 1 John 3:4 -- you are pointing out a "distinction without a difference"

Both translations are saying that sin IS transgression of the LAW

In fact it is the LAW that defines what sin IS - (being transgression of that Law)

The moral law of God defines what sin IS - and places all mankind under condemnation as sinners in need of the Gospel:

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23 "ALL" have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” ... 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

 

[KSykes]

Deut 5:1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:

Hear, Israel, the decrees and the laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:

6 ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

7 ‘You shall have no other gods before me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

11 ‘You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labour and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Did God bring Adam, Noah or Abraham out of slavery in Egypt? You who believe the ancestors of the Israelites had the Torah certainly have not given the subject much thought. God has given all mankind laws instilled in us at conception. Furthermore He has given gentiles the Noahide laws and the Abrahamic covenant laws, so yes, they all had laws that God gave them, but they were not the laws of the Mosaic covenant, Torah.

We are in agreement, inpart. My contention is only this...The Torah in its written form as we know...we certainly cant be prove to have existed in the form we know it. The greater point is that God, in some form gave Moses’ ancestors instruction in the proper way to worship him and ways to get along with fellow man and rules that would “make life go well”. The contention in Christianity that we can summarily disregard the Torah(except the tithing part-hmmmm!) is against wisdom and against scripture.

I also propose to you that... if their be any distinction between “Noahide” and Mosaic Law would only be that their were some distinct circumstances going on(with their being some est 1 million people traveling together in a nomadic, close quarters lifestyle) that more detailed instructions were given that necessary to keep things running smooth. And, Moses recorded ALL that God told him-first hand. Detail? My, was God detailed in his instructions to Moses?! Consider the details about Tabernacle and the ways the priestly system was to function, etc. Therefore, where there are lots of details, we should pay Close attention. Where there is less detail, such as the details in the interactions with Abraham and Noah, I think, we shouldn’t make doctrine from it.

Also, consider this, what we know about Noah and the events that were recorded, by Moses mind you, in Genesis... were, more than likely, known to him by stories passed down to him from the Israelites-generation to generation. So, just because there are some things NOT recorded in Genesis about Noah’s story doesn’t mean things changed from him to Moses time.

Question, why do you say Gentiles had Noahide law?
Why a distinction?

 

[KSykes]

Because we are not circumcised and we are Gentiles.

First and foremost all gods instructions to us had a Physical benefit and a Spiritual benefit.
1st Circumcision has an obvious cleanliness/health benefit.
2nd Doing it on the 8th day was also a symbolic teaching moment as it reminds us of His 7 Holy Days(there is an 8th day of Feast of Tabernacles, symbolizes the last GREAT Day after the end the 1000yr rein on Earth- called The Millenium). BTW, HIS Holy days are a foreshadowing of HIS plan of Salvation. You should study them.
3rd We see in Acts that the Physical circumcision, was not necessary to be considered an Israelite(Jew) which also is an acronym for meaning you are in covenant with HIM.
God is not a respecter of blood line...so, to be in Covenant(circumscion) with its not a physical sign(or blood line). Although many uncircumcised have done it as an outward act to say I am with you. Similar to Baptism. See the dude in Acts he did it for that reason.
How do we deal with...
John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

How can we DO THAT if we say...Yes Lord but not this law or not that law. You have different laws for ME cause I ain’t descended from...

Now if you say...in Acts Gentiles were ONLY asked to...

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Here is the glanced over part:

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Paraphrased. ”Make sure these Gentiles stop this PAGAN worship stuff right away, see, then they can learn the rest of the good stuff in The Torah scrolls that are housed and taught from in the Synagogues in each town”

The gentiles re-education process wasnt to end with just don’t do this no mo. The Torah is vital to fully understanding Gods wants and desires and for avoiding pitfalls in life.

I ain’t Jewish(for they added way to much tradition and burdensome yokes to Torah).

See Psalms 119 David loved Gods laws(Torah) he wasnt “Jewish”

 

[KSykes]

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Show me in the Old Testament law where a commandment states 'that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ'.

That’s the 1st commandment

The word translated as God...now technically that word God is a Title not a proper name although we often use the name God as A convenient name. However, we have heard this expression God the Father, God the Son. So, to believe in “God”(the god of the old and new test. is to believe in the son)
Jesus said himself me and my father are one(not one entity but we are agreed, we are family, we are oneness)

 

[klutedavid]

That’s the 1st commandment

The word translated as God...now technically that word God is a Title not a proper name although we often use the name God as A convenient name. However, we have heard this expression God the Father, God the Son. So, to believe in “God”(the god of the old and new test. is to believe in the son)
Jesus said himself me and my father are one(not one entity but we are agreed, we are family, we are oneness)

So a Jew does not need to confess the name of Jesus because they already know YHWH?