The law before Moses?

[KSykes]

First of all the LAW of Moses is GODS law given directly to him to be written for all of us that will accept it.
The very DEFINTION of what is SIN comes from what Moses was told to write down by GOD

Where else are you turning for definition of SIN? All references to sin in NEW TESTAMENT are quotes from OLD TESTAMENT

 

[BobRyan]

I am aware of this, but the huge majority of Gentiles in the world obviously did not reside in Israel. And the Law was not for them.
.

Until you notice that "sin" is defined as "transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4 - and "ALL have sinned" so then "not just Jews sin".

And what is more it was always a sin for gentiles to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 OT or NT.

In fact it was a bunch of "gentiles" that had sinned so much before the flood that all life on planet Earth got wiped out -- see Genesis 6 and 7.

So much for no law breaking by gentiles.

what is more gentiles are specifically singled out for blessing from God in Isaiah 56:6-8 if they choose not to "profane the Sabbath"

You keep repeating this - it does not make it any more true.

Again, here is the text as rendered in (accurate) NASB:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Note the lack of specificity to the Law of Moses - "lawlessness", in general, need not be in relation to the Law of Moses.

Bible texts are true even if someone does not like them.

You are of course welcomed to your opinion.

In fact 1 John 3:4 is in reference to the same NT concept of LAW that we find in Eph 6:2 where in that law of the TEN commandments the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" -- as we already saw.

Also quoted by Christ in Matthew 19
Also quoted by Paul in Romans 13
Also quoted by James in James 2..

Thus it is "still a sin" - to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

A very clear bible detail freely admitted by both sides of this topic discussion as we see in those who endorse it.

===========for example

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

 

[expos4ever]

First of all the LAW of Moses is GODS law given directly to him to be written for all of us that will accept it.

Not true - the Law was given to the Israelites only:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

...and this from Paul:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law....

Gentile do not have the Law!

 

[KSykes]

Not true - the Law was given to the Israelites only:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

...and this from Paul:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law....

Gentile do not have the Law!

Which peoples was he setting them apart from?
The Pagan cultures of the day.
Now, the things they GOD prohibited were things the Pagans did. So, don’t you want to GOD’S PEOPLE? The LAWS he gave her were BEST PRACTICES, agreed?

“Without law” is referring to ANY PEOPLES who were not exposed to/educated in/grew up in the study of the Torah
Good example would be the Caananites or most the “ITES”

There was only a few scrolls ya know, and no Gideon’s.
Yet, just because they were ignorant of the letter of Gods written laws, they will still be held accountable in a degree.
Even Pygmies in the rain forest know its wrong to murder, right?
So, even the caananites(gentiles) who were not UNDER the SYSTEM of the LAW(community authority, synagogues) like the Israelites at that time.
They are still held accountable in Gods Eyes and hopefully in their own civil system.
Ignorance of the laws of the road don’t mean you wont get a ticket.
I am not UNDER the LAW of Italy. Yet if I go there and I break it I will be held accountable.

 

[Bob S]

I agree the law did exist before Moses...
Genesis 26:5
because Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

This was WAY before Moses.

So, why do some Christians saw the laws were only for Jews?

Deut 5:1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:

Hear, Israel, the decrees and the laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:

6 ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

7 ‘You shall have no other gods before me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

11 ‘You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labour and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Did God bring Adam, Noah or Abraham out of slavery in Egypt? You who believe the ancestors of the Israelites had the Torah certainly have not given the subject much thought. God has given all mankind laws instilled in us at conception. Furthermore He has given gentiles the Noahide laws and the Abrahamic covenant laws, so yes, they all had laws that God gave them, but they were not the laws of the Mosaic covenant, Torah.

 

[timothyu]

Jesus is not saying to follow the Law of Moses here - He is saying to follow His commandments.

The very DEFINTION of what is SIN comes from what Moses was told to write down by GOD

Jesus' two commandments cover the 10 Commandments. A condensed version saying the same thing. It all boils down to putting Gods will before the will of man which is to love all as self. To not put God's will first was the original sin. Eve put her will ahead of God's.

 

[klutedavid]

Completely agree. Why do most Christians turn their noses at The Seventh day sabbath, food laws, Gods holy days and say it was only for Jews since it was given only to them?

Because we are not circumcised and we are Gentiles.

 

[expos4ever]

Because we are not circumcised and we are Gentiles.

Agree. Seriously, man - have these people actually read the Old Testament?

 

[BobRyan]

Ok. The Law of Moses was for Israel only.

Not according to Paul in Romans 3:19-20.

Not according to John - in 1 John 3:4

Not according to Rom 3:23

Not according to Isaiah 56:6-8

Not according to Genesis 6 and 7

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works [b]of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for [c]through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Where we see that the Law "defines what sin is" just as 1 John 3:4 says.

The result is that "all the world"... and not "just Jews" are condemned as sinners. As has been the case since the fall of Adam until now. All need the Gospel. No one going to heaven without it... this is a problem for mankind and not "just Jews" who happen to know about the command "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

Who are those "under the Law".

The text you just quoted says "all the whole world" and "every mouth"

Hence Romans 3:23 "ALL have sinned" not "just Jews have sinned".

 

[klutedavid]

“The Law”, is often interchangeably called the Law of Moses, and the Law of God. God gave it to Moses, whom then gave it to the Israelites.

Obviously, Israel Specific commandments would not have existed prior to Israel, but the whole law is not centered around Israel & the Exodus.

2 Chronicles 34:14

Psalms 103:7



The contents/requirements of the Law of God/Moses existed in some form before it was written down by Moses and given to the Israelites

-the Sabbath was made holy at creation, and existed prior to the Israelites
-Noah knew The difference between clean and unclean animals
-Onan did not go into his sister in law after his brother died, thus God killed him for not continuing his brother’s lineage
-Abraham obeyed Gods “commandments, statutes and judgements”
-the Sodomites were wicked in God’s sight. Those who do not live according to God’s law are wicked

Psalms 119:53

Proverbs 28:4


Genesis 26:3-4

Nehemiah 9:18

Psalms 147:19-20


There is nothing to indicate that the “laws, statutes and commandments” given to Israel(Abraham’s children) are completely different from the “laws, statutes and commandments” given to Abraham(Israel’s father)

Exodus 20:6


Did God suddenly change his commandments to a different, brand new set revealing them to the Israelites? We have no evidence of this.

Read Johns first letter.

 

[klutedavid]

Agree. Seriously, man - have these people actually read the Old Testament?

I wonder sometimes.

 

[BobRyan]

Read Johns first letter.

That's where John tells us that "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
And "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

 

[klutedavid]

That's where John tells us that "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
And "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

So believing in Jesus is not a commandment?

 

[timothyu]

"Sin IS transgression of the Law"

Putting our will ahead of the will of God

"this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

In doing His will which is loving all as self to counter-act the evils that man does in pursuit of self interest.

 

[Dkh587]

Read Johns first letter.

What about it?

 

[klutedavid]

What about it?

One John has two new commandments.

 

[Dkh587]

One John has two new commandments.

What are they?

 

[timothyu]

The newest ones are stay at home and wash your hands. Hardly effective in bringing about world peace. Man tries but can never reach God's standards

 

[klutedavid]

What are they?

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Show me in the Old Testament law where a commandment states 'that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ'.

 

[klutedavid]

The newest ones are stay at home and wash your hands. Hardly effective in bringing about world peace. Man tries but can never reach God's standards

Matthew 5:31
“It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’;

Matthew 5:32
But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Sure looks like Jesus is imposing a new commandment here also.

 

[Dkh587]

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Show me in the Old Testament law where a commandment states 'that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ'.

show me where i said that commandment was in the Law or the Prophets.