The law before Moses?

[KSykes]

“The Law”, is often interchangeably called the Law of Moses, and the Law of God. God gave it to Moses, whom then gave it to the Israelites.

Obviously, Israel Specific commandments would not have existed prior to Israel, but the whole law is not centered around Israel & the Exodus.

2 Chronicles 34:14

Psalms 103:7



The contents/requirements of the Law of God/Moses existed in some form before it was written down by Moses and given to the Israelites

-the Sabbath was made holy at creation, and existed prior to the Israelites
-Noah knew The difference between clean and unclean animals
-Onan did not go into his sister in law after his brother died, thus God killed him for not continuing his brother’s lineage
-Abraham obeyed Gods “commandments, statutes and judgements”
-the Sodomites were wicked in God’s sight. Those who do not live according to God’s law are wicked

Psalms 119:53

Proverbs 28:4


Genesis 26:3-4

Nehemiah 9:18

Psalms 147:19-20


There is nothing to indicate that the “laws, statutes and commandments” given to Israel(Abraham’s children) are completely different from the “laws, statutes and commandments” given to Abraham(Israel’s father)

Exodus 20:6


Did God suddenly change his commandments to a different, brand new set revealing them to the Israelites? We have no evidence of this.

Very good. We are in agreement. The purpose of the thread topic is...if it did exist before Moses, which it is obvious it did, why dismiss it as applying only to Jews?
It is frustrating to see so the vast majority of Christian Churches teach the ordinances/degrees in the Old Testament do not apply any longer.

 

[KSykes]

Well, for starters, the Law of Moses (e.g. food laws, festivals, 10 commandments, etc.) was given to Jews and Jews alone - I can argue the point but, to save time, I would invite you to see what Biblical scholars have to say. I will wager that all of them will agree that the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only.

Now, some people will argue that since the New Testament teaches that all believers, whether Jew or Gentile, have essentially been glommed together as a new "Israel", then it would make sense for all of us to follow the Law of Moses. The problem with that is that there is another possibility - perhaps the Law of Moses has been done away with for all - both Jew and Gentile. And that is certainly what Paul believes:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

If you read the quotes and opinion of a lot of the other commentators on this topic, biblically it cant be accurate that there are separate rules for Jew and Gentile(set for forth in the Torah...for the Scribes and Pharisees added much to their traditions)

Here is scripture that has to be a massive hurdle to that theory...Exodus 12:49, Leviticus 24:22, Number 15:16 (paraphrasing to follow) There shall be one law for you the native/homeborn as well as the stranger/sojourner/gentile

I have read the biblical scholars(Which are approaching Paul from a Catholic/Protestant slant every time) opinions on Paul.
Since Paul many times Says this about the law...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.
Rom 7:12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the Way which they call a sect, so serve I the God of our fathers, believing all things which are according to the law, and which are written in the prophets;

So, is Paul bi-polar or contradicting himself?

Paul was a law-keeper to the extreme from his earliest years, studying the Torah at the feet of Gamaliel(a learned scribe)

After his Damascus road incident this happen...

Gal 1:12 For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but by a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:13 For you heard my way of life when I was in Judaism, that with surpassing zeal I persecuted the assembly of God and ravaged it.

Gal 1:14 And I progressed in Judaism beyond many contemporaries in my race, being much more a zealot of the traditions of my ancestors.

Gal 1:15 But when God was pleased, He having separated me from my mother's belly, and having called me through His grace, Isa. 49:1

Gal 1:16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the nations, immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood,

Gal 1:17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to the apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia and returned again to Damascus.

Gal 1:18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to learn from Peter and remained with him fifteen days.

Paul was re-educated about the flaws brought into (adding and taking away from the Torah) in Judaism. So when he is making NEGATIVE comments about THE LAW he is either referring to extraneous “ORAL COMMANDMENTS and TRADITIONS added to the law(most time properly translated ORAL LAW). Or the LAW of the SIN DEBT...
Wages of SIN is DEATH
This is what Christ paid/accomplished/fulfilled/nullified with his sinless sacrifice.
Yes, no Temple, no Levitical priest system now.
But we have a new administration not new laws

When we get a new Administration elected into the White House the laws didn’t change...just the administration.

The Pharisees kept the Letter(and added their own-Jesus addressed that in MArk 7:8) and others verses too, but they were not keeping the Spirit of the Law.

That’s why he kept saying stuff like...
Mat 5:27 You have heard that it was said to the ancients: "Do not commit adultery." Ex. 20:14; Deut. 5:18

Mat 5:28 But I say to you, Everyone looking at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

He was more fully explaining THE LAW and we know from Mat 5:7 he didn’t come to abolish.

 

[expos4ever]

If you read the quotes and opinion of a lot of the other commentators on this topic, biblically it cant be accurate that there are separate rules for Jew and Gentile(set for forth in the Torah...for the Scribes and Pharisees added much to their traditions).

Surely you are not saying that the Law of Moses was for Gentiles? No scholar would agree with that. For example:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

That the Law of Moses is for Jews only is one of the most basic facts of the Old Testament.

 

[timothyu]

That the Law of Moses is for Jews only is one of the most basic facts of the Old Testament.

Moses was a Levite, not a Jew.

 

[expos4ever]

Moses was a Levite, not a Jew.

Ok. The Law of Moses was for Israel only.

 

[KSykes]

Surely you are not saying that the Law of Moses was for Gentiles? No scholar would agree with that. For example:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

That the Law of Moses is for Jews only is one of the most basic facts of the Old Testament.

No, the scripture say that...
Exodus 12:49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.

Wouldn’t you want to be “peoples of HIS”?

What’s wrong with trying to follow his Laws/ordinances/Appointmets with him(his holy days)

Psalms 119 all about the benefits of keeping his laws/statues/commandments

How could you ever NOT want to be his people.

Jesus said in...John 15:10 If you love me keep my commandments...just as I kept my fathers commandments(Old Testament)

 

[expos4ever]

No, the scripture say that...
Exodus 12:49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.

I am aware of this, but the huge majority of Gentiles in the world obviously did not reside in Israel. And the Law was not for them.

What’s wrong with trying to follow his Laws/ordinances/Appointmets with him(his holy days)

Nothing, I suppose. But, unlike the Israelite, the rest of the world does not fall under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses.

Jesus said in...John 15:10 If you love me keep my commandments...just as I kept my fathers commandments(Old Testament)

Jesus is not saying to follow the Law of Moses here - He is saying to follow His commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

I am aware of this, but the huge majority of Gentiles in the world obviously did not reside in Israel. And the Law was not for them.
.

Until you notice that "sin" is defined as "transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4 - and "ALL have sinned" so then "not just Jews sin".

And what is more it was always a sin for gentiles to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 OT or NT.

In fact it was a bunch of "gentiles" that had sinned so much before the flood that all life on planet Earth got wiped out -- see Genesis 6 and 7.

So much for no law breaking by gentiles.

what is more gentiles are specifically singled out for blessing from God in Isaiah 56:6-8 if they choose not to "profane the Sabbath"

 

[BobRyan]

Ok. The Law of Moses was for Israel only.

Not according to Paul in Romans 3:19-20.

Not according to John - in 1 John 3:4

Not according to Rom 3:23

Not according to Isaiah 56:6-8

Not according to Genesis 6 and 7

 

[expos4ever]

Until you notice that "sin" is defined as "transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4 - and "ALL have sinned" so then "not just Jews sin".

You keep repeating this - it does not make it any more true.

Again, here is the text as rendered in (accurate) NASB:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Note the lack of specificity to the Law of Moses - "lawlessness", in general, need not be in relation to the Law of Moses.

 

[Dkh587]

You keep repeating this - it does not make it any more true.

Again, here is the text as rendered in (accurate) NASB:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Note the lack of specificity to the Law of Moses - "lawlessness", in general, need not be in relation to the Law of Moses.

Do you agree that the law of Moses is the law of God?

 

[expos4ever]

Not according to Paul in Romans 3:19-20.

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works [b]of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for [c]through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Who are those "under the Law". Why, the nation of Israel of course. And lest ye try to argue that the reference to the "whole world" means that the entire world is under the Law of Moses - which is of course absurd based on mountains of Biblical evidence - here is the structure of Romans 3:

- Paul indicts the Jew first;
- He then moves onto the Gentile;
- Then in verse 19, he reminds us that the Law only applies to some;
- He concludes that since both Jew and Gentile are sinners (see first two points), the whole world is in trouble.

There is no evidence here at all the Law of Moses applies to Gentiles.

 

[expos4ever]

Not according to John - in 1 John 3:4

See post 50.

Not according to Rom 3:23

Your argument is circular - the fact that all humans have sinned certainly does not mean all are under the the Law of Moses.

Not according to Isaiah 56:6-8

Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

The prophet is speaking of a time in the future when, yes, all people will go to God's "house". But it turns out, in God's plan, that house will be Jesus, not the Temple.

Not according to Genesis 6 and 7

Please explain.

 

[expos4ever]

Do you agree that the law of Moses is the law of God?

I agree it is a law of God. But surely you know there was a time before the Law of Moses was given; the people were still under commandments from God.

What do you think this text means?:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

 

[KSykes]

I am aware of this, but the huge majority of Gentiles in the world obviously did not reside in Israel. And the Law was not for them.


Nothing, I suppose. But, unlike the Israelite, the rest of the world does not fall under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses.


Jesus is not saying to follow the Law of Moses here - He is saying to follow His commandments.

Reside IN Israel? Location has nothing to with any of this.
The Topic was “Did the law exist before Moses time”. Based on the scriptures noted above by so many knowledgeable Bible readers...IT DID. Please read them.

Knowing that, it existed in some form...(Verbal/community knowledge or written) then, it is STILL relevant/applicable/to be adhered to...for today!
If you are referring to the LAST location of the TEMPLE being in JERUSALEM...Keep in mind they wandered for 40 years before that. AND since ABRAHAM was at least 500 years before Moses and HE(Abraham) KEPT Gods commandments/statutes and laws and was found worthy

Gen 26:5 because Abraham listened to My voice and heeded My charge, My commands, My statutes, and My laws.
Gods laws...Good enough for Abraham good enough for me

So, Jesus had DIFFERENT laws/commandments/statutes than HIS Father?. Not to be mean...but that is very uninformed.
Here is JUST ONE proof that’s a wrong idea.

John 7:16
"My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me.


BTW. This what Paul had a problem with any time Negatives were used pertaining to “THE LAW”...ORAL LAW
It was later written down...its called the TALMUD.
Talmud
[ tahl-moo d, -muh d, tal- ]
noun
the collection of Jewish law and tradition consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara and being either the edition produced in Palestine a.d. c400 or the larger, more important one produced in Babylonia a.d. c500.

This is were they got the wrong IDEA that Jesus broke the Sabbath.

 

[Dkh587]

I agree it is a law of God. But surely you know there was a time before the Law of Moses was given; the people were still under commandments from God.

What do you think this text means?:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

Why a, and not the? The Prophets & Messiah & Apostles called it the law of God, why aren’t you in agreement with them?

 

[KSykes]

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works [b]of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for [c]through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Who are those "under the Law". Why, the nation of Israel of course. And lest ye try to argue that the reference to the "whole world" means that the entire world is under the Law of Moses - which is of course absurd based on mountains of Biblical evidence - here is the structure of Romans 3:

- Paul indicts the Jew first;
- He then moves onto the Gentile;
- Then in verse 19, he reminds us that the Law only applies to some;
- He concludes that since both Jew and Gentile are sinners (see first two points), the whole world is in trouble.

There is no evidence here at all the Law of Moses applies to Gentiles.

YES he does indict the Jew first, as a people they had the LAW in their hands/synagogues/culture they were held more accountable. Well just contradicted your opinion...you said Law only applies TO SOME, then you said BOTH Jew and Gentile are sinners(i agree)
BUT, following your reasoning Gentiles aren’t under the law...so how can they be counted as sinners if they aren’t under the law?

 

[expos4ever]

BUT, following your reasoning Gentiles aren’t under the law...so how can they be counted as sinners if they aren’t under the law?

Simply because there is no Biblical case, that I am aware of, that sin has to be reckoned against the Law of Moses in particular.

 

[KSykes]

Another point, “by the works of the law no flesh shall be saved”
Sooo...The topic that was being addressed in this verse is...in JUDAISM, they had the unbiblical assumption that Salvation was achieved BY keeping the law perfectly, thus the over zealous/arduous additions to each tittle/dot of the letter of the law, i.e.
The 39 Categories of Sabbath Work Prohibited By Law
OU StaffJuly 17, 2006




The Virtual Reader will note that there are “Notes” attached to many, if not all, the definitions of particular “melachot.” This entire chapter is taken, with permission, from the book “SABBATH Day of Eternity” by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan (available separately, or included in the “The Aryeh Kaplan Anthology II,” published by the NCSY (National Conference of Synagogue Youth) Division of the Orthodox Union.


1. Carrying
2. Burning
3. Extinguishing
4. Finishing
5. Writing
6. Erasing
7. Cooking
8. Washing
9. Sewing
10. Tearing
11. Knotting
12. Untying
13. Shaping
14. Plowing
15. Planting
16. Reaping
17. Harvesting
18. Threshing
19. Winnowing
20. Selecting
21. Sifting
22. Grinding
23. Kneading
24. Combing
25. Spinning
26. Dyeing
27. Chain-stitching
28. Warping
29. Weaving
30. Unraveling
31. Building
32. Demolishing
33. Trapping
34. Shearing
35. Slaughtering
36. Skinning
37. Tanning
38. Smoothing
39. Marking

And each of these 39 topics has details what exactly is defined

This what Paul is deriding. He has no problem with the Torah

 

[KSykes]

Simply because there is no Biblical case, that I am aware of, that sin has to be reckoned against the Law of Moses in particular.

First of all the LAW of Moses is GODS law given directly to him to be written for all of us that will accept it.
The very DEFINTION of what is SIN comes from what Moses was told to write down by GOD