The Law and the Gospel

Bob S

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God gave Torah to only one nation. The reason He gave them 613 rules was because they came out of a system of slavery and didn't have any rules to guide them as a new nation. God even told Moses that the Torah was to make them a great and Holy nation. Ex1:5-6

Torah was never given as a means to gain salvation, so why do some Christians feel the need to imitate the way the Israelites were to live? If the Israelites were to be saved by observing the law then we certainly will not see any of them in God's eternal kingdom.

So, my question to all who think Christians must observe the ritual laws that governed Israel in Canaan in order to gain gain salvation, where do you find that in the new covenant? My Bible tells me that I know I am in the truth if I Believe in Jesus and love other as He loves us. Seems pretty simple to me and why do some make it so hard by imposing laws that do not pertain to Christians. I believe most are not thinking for their selves, but are allowing others to think for them and then parroting falsehood.
 
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BobRyan

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Hi again Copperhead, here's the "short" answer :)

Salvation PRECEDES following! (We aren't saved BECAUSE we follow, we follow because we're ALREADY saved) Salvation is by God alone. Soli Deo gloria!

And now, here's the long one (if you dare ^_^):

The rich young ruler asked this question of the Lord in the NT,

Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?” ~Matthew 19:16.​

Jesus answered him saying:

"If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments” ~Matthew 19:17

Clearly, that's what was taught and what was required in the OT to be saved, and you know what, the same thing is still taught and required for salvation today :preach:

Jesus was right ...
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Jesus was not teaching the false doctrine of "have no faith in me - just live a sinless life"

Jesus said "one more thing you lack - sell all that you have and come and join this group of 12 disciples" - Jesus did not tell him "select a different Messiah" or "choose another religion" ... neither did he preach the false doctrine of "reject the Gospel - just continue to be sinless".

Saints obey the commandments because we're ALREADY saved Bob, because we already know the Savior

It's nice to have agreement on something.
 
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Copperhead

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Question... under the Mosaic Law, where gentiles required to keep all the Law? Even God fearing Gentiles?

When the Jerusalem council met in Acts 15, what requirements did they put on the gentiles who came to faith in Messiah?

What was the summary of the Law as per Yeshua in Matthew 22?
 
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Copperhead

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God gave Torah to only one nation. The reason He gave them 613 rules was because they came out of a system of slavery and didn't have any rules to guide them as a new nation. God even told Moses that the Torah was to make them a great and Holy nation. Ex1:5-6

Torah was never given as a means to gain salvation, so why do some Christians feel the need to imitate the way the Israelites were to live? If the Israelites were to be saved by observing the law then we certainly will not see any of them in God's eternal kingdom.

So, my question to all who think Christians must observe the ritual laws that governed Israel in Canaan in order to gain gain salvation, where do you find that in the new covenant? My Bible tells me that I know I am in the truth if I Believe in Jesus and love other as He loves us. Seems pretty simple to me and why do some make it so hard by imposing laws that do not pertain to Christians. I believe most are not thinking for their selves, but are allowing others to think for them and then parroting falsehood.

Many of us do not see Torah as some sort of ritual or observance thing. We see Torah as what the word actually means... teaching or instruction. It is the "users manual" to understand the standard of God and the guide to show the Messiah. Only a western mindset confuses Torah with "law" like the civil law or some ritual requirement.

The feasts of Leviticus 23 are rich with images of Messiah. The social requirements of how to treat widows, orphans, even foreigners.. no government has ever been able to emulate at such a moral level. Even how to properly treat livestock is mentioned. Like not letting a day go by without milking a cow so that it doesn't suffer.

Even what some would consider gloss over material in the Torah is rich with allusion of Messiah. For instance, the law regarding cities of refuge for what we would call accidental killing or manslaughter. If a person was guilt of accidentally killing someone, he could flee to a city of refuge and be protected from the vengeance of the next of kin... the Goel or Kinsman Redeemer... who was allowed by law to seek vengeance. And that person could stay in that city until the death of the High Priest and then be free.

We are all guilty of the murder of Messiah by our sin. But at the cross, He said "they know not what they do", thereby claiming we are only guilty of manslaughter. So if we then flee to the city of refuge, which is the Messiah, we then are protected from the vengeance of the next of kin (the Father). And that is forever since Messiah is our High Priest who lives forever.

Even Jews under Torah, many of the requirements did not have to be observed by everyone. Anyone who thinks this stuff is all about "law" has never studied the Torah.
 
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BobRyan

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Question... under the Mosaic Law, where gentiles required to keep all the Law? Even God fearing Gentiles?

When the Jerusalem council met in Acts 15, what requirements did they put on the gentiles who came to faith in Messiah?

What was the summary of the Law as per Yeshua in Matthew 22?

Matt 22 - before the cross - we find agreement between Christ an the Pharisees that the summary of the Law was ... (and still is even after the cross)

1. Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart.
2. Lev 19:18 - Love your neighbor as yourself.

True before the cross...
True after the cross...

No change.

In Acts 15 they do not say "Gentiles should not take God's name in vain".
IN Acts 15 they don't say "Gentiles should honor their parents".
In Acts 15 they don't say "Gentiles should love God with all their heart.. and love their neighbor as themselves"
In Acts 15 they don't say "this short few sentence statement is the new downsized-bible for gentiles"
 
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BobRyan

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Question... under the Mosaic Law, where gentiles required to keep all the Law? Even God fearing Gentiles?

There were three mandatory feast days for Jews in the OT ... they were never mandatory for God-fearing gentiles.

Under the OT law for Priests - the high priest was never supposed to tear his robe -- this was never a rule for Gentiles.

Gentiles were not commanded to be circumcised in OT or NT.

In Acts 21 Paul is "falsely accused" of telling Jews not to circumcise their children. He goes through great lengths in that chapter to disprove that false accusation.

They do NOT accuse Pail of "telling gentiles not to circumcise their children" because not even the non-Christian Jews thought that was something the Bible required.

This is irrefutable.
 
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Bob S

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Many of us do not see Torah as some sort of ritual or observance thing. We see Torah as what the word actually means... teaching or instruction. It is the "users manual" to understand the standard of God and the guide to show the Messiah. Only a western mindset confuses Torah with "law" like the civil law or some ritual requirement.

The feasts of Leviticus 23 are rich with images of Messiah. The social requirements of how to treat widows, orphans, even foreigners.. no government has ever been able to emulate at such a moral level. Even how to properly treat livestock is mentioned. Like not letting a day go by without milking a cow so that it doesn't suffer.

Even what some would consider gloss over material in the Torah is rich with allusion of Messiah. For instance, the law regarding cities of refuge for what we would call accidental killing or manslaughter. If a person was guilt of accidentally killing someone, he could flee to a city of refuge and be protected from the vengeance of the next of kin... the Goal or Kinsman Redeemer... who was allowed by law to seek vengeance. And that person could stay in that city until the death of the High Priest and then be free.

We are all guilty of the murder of Messiah by our sin. But at the cross, He said "they know not what they do", thereby claiming we are only guilty of manslaughter. So if we then flee to the city of refuge, which is the Messiah, we then are protected from the vengeance of the next of kin (the Father). And that is forever since Messiah is our High Priest who lives forever.

Even Jews under Torah, many of the requirements did not have to be observed by everyone. Anyone who thinks this stuff is all about "law" has never studied the Torah.
Exactly, I agree with you and the more I study the more I find that Torah was the way of life for Israel. God wanted them to be a Holy nation. A beacon on a hill to the Gentile nations.

All of the laws God gave to Israel pertaining morality were there for Adam and all of mankind since. It was almost all of the ritual laws given to Israel only that were unique only to them.

Christians under the new covenant are not required to observe all those ritual laws, yet as you can observe many posters on Sabbath and the Law are trying to put us under the rituals given only to Biblical Israel and ended at Calvary. If you have debatable thoughts please bring them to the table. Just making comments without any meat to prove anything is not adding anything to help seekers to find the real truth.
 
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disciple1

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What is the relationship between the law and the gospel?
Here is the purpose of the law.
Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.


And here I believe is what the gospel teaches.
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
 
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Sola1517

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The Law was given to reveal what sin is and sin is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).
Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins (Matthew 4:17, 4:23), and the Law was how they knew what they should be repenting of doing, so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is an integral part of the Gospel message.
So we are to measure our holiness by works of the law?
 
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Copperhead

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I think we exchange "Laws" like we do bosses when taking a new job. We are not subject to the penalties and restrictions of the Mosaic Law, but we are subject to the Law of the Spirit (Romans 8:2) And it is those works of the spirit which James refers to and we are judged by. Paul gives us what those works are...

Galatians 5:22-23 (NKJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

The word "fruit" or karpos has an additional meaning of works, labors, etc. And I am convinced this is what James was getting at....

James 2:17-18 (NKJV Strong's,) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

We are not saved by works of the Mosaic Law, but if we are indeed renewed, being indwelled by the HS, then that will flow out of us in Works (fruit) of the Spirit.... a kind word to others, caring for those that need caring for, comforting a someone in time of stress or sorrow, sharing in the joy of another, restraint, slow to anger, etc. And if one looks at the Mosaic Law, especially the 10 commandments, the Law of Spirit and the associate results totally fulfill the Mosaic Law.

And James states in that same idea throughout the passage, not with words only but with actual deeds that show who we are in Messiah as an example to others... that they can see.
 
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Soyeong

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So we are to measure our holiness by works of the law?

There is no definitive article in the Greek in the phrase "works of the law", so it is literally translated, such as in the YLT as "work of law", which means that the phrase does not refer to a definitive set us laws, such the Mosaic law, but rather it was used by Paul as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences. For example, in Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of men in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so Jesus criticized the Pharisees for not following the Mosaic Law and for instead teaching their own traditions as the Mosaic Law. This means that is critically important to correctly distinguish between between what is said about the Mosaic Law and what is said about man-made works of law that were being taught as the Mosaic Law or else we will not correctly understand what was being said.

However, if your intent was to ask me whether we are to measure our holiness by our obedience to God's Law, then the answer is yes and no. The Law was not given to instruct how to become righteous or holy, but rather it was given to those that God had made righteous and holy as instructions for how to therefore act in accordance with His righteousness and holiness. For example, the Law reveals that helping the poor is acting in accordance with God's righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith, and by the same grace through the same faith we are therefore required to act in accordance with God's righteousness. And the same goes with following God's instructions for how to act in accordance with God's holiness. For example, in 1 Peter 1:13-16, it says that we are to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a direct quote from Leviticus, where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, such as Leviticus 11:44-45, where God revealed that refraining from eating unclean animals is a way to act in accordance with His eternal holiness.

Yet within righteousness a holiness there are also degrees in how closely we measure up to God's standard. For example, in Genesis 36:26, Judah said that Tamar was more righteous than he was, and in 1 Samuel 24:17, Saul said that David was more righteous than he was, so this is in regard more closely acting in accordance with God's righteous standard. In the same way, there were different areas of the temple that had varying degrees of holiness depending on how close they were to the holy of holies. As children of God, we have all been set apart for the purpose of giving glory to God, so we are all holy, yet there are also degrees to which we are dedicated to that purpose. In Titus 2:11-14, it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, so we are being trained by grace to more closely act in accordance with God's attributes or are being conformed to His image, but this is not work that will be completed until he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).
 
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