The Law and the Gospel

St_Worm2

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Here's an important part of it.

Galatians 3
24 The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.

Yours and His,
David

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BobRyan

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What is the relationship between the law and the gospel?

New Covenant comes to mind.
Jer 31:31-33
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Romans 8:4-9 -- the wicked "Do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they" as contrasted to the saints in those very same verses.

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

================================================

The role of the LAW for the LOST
Romans 3:19-20

The role of the LAW for the saved
Romans 3:31

Pick one.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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What is the relationship between the law and the gospel?

Hi Sola,

Good question. I would like to share my personal testimony of how I met Jesus for the first time in my life and use it as an example to answer your question and to also add some thoughts near the end. Hope you enjoy it.

This is my personal testimony.

When I first started reading God's Word, I believed that I needed to keep God's Law (10 commandments) for my salvation accepting the death and life of Jesus. I was very exacting in what I believed at the time and tried to be very strict in my observance to obey God's Law. I found after some time that the harder I tried the more I saw myself as a sinner going through a cycle of sinning, confessing and repenting the same old sins, until I was ready to give up in discouragement. I also saw myself on the inside. Sometimes I was outwardly never breaking God's Laws but in my thinking it was not a very nice place to be at all. Where was this love I was suppose to have for others. I knew deep down inside that I did not really love people like Jesus wanted me to.

What now? Reading God's Word Jesus is telling me even if I look on a woman to lust I have already committed adultery applying God's Law to my very thoughts? Ok here I lost all hope..... condemned as a sinner....... All my righteousness now was as it is plainly to be seen, filthy rags. I have finally given up all hope of trying to keep God's Law. There is finally nothing that I can do to save myself.

It was at this place for the very first time in my life I met Jesus. I could finally see that it was he who died on the cross for my sins and that I was the chiefest of sinners of whom Christ had come to save! I knew for the very first time in my life that Jesus had come into the world not to save the righteous but bring sinners to repentance. Before I was righteous (in my own eyes) but now I can see myself just how God sees me, sick with sin in need of a Savoir. The Law of God was my schoolmaster that brought me to the cross to meet Jesus for the first time. Here I was at the cross, all undone my complete dependence was no longer on what I could do, but was only on what God's Word says it would do. For the first time I had complete dependence on the Word of God to do what it says it would do and that Jesus was holding out His free gift of salvation to me all he wanted me to do was to believe His Word and it was mine. I saw for the very first time that I love Him because He first loved me.

Now I walk with him. His commandments that brought me to him are no longer his commandments. They are his promises and as I received Jesus I live in Jesus, by faith in his Word to do what it says it will do. Now I obey and follow him because I love him. He has made me free in Him and given me power to walk with him in newness of life. Now I follow the God of creation by faith and dependence on the Word only to do what it says it will do. I love Jesus and His Word. His Words are spirit and they are life! I worship Jesus every day. I follow His Word by faith and it is he that works in me as I believe His Word. For the very first time I am free in Him, He changes me day by day as I believe His Word.

A counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation.

Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 24). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12).

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Words so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matthew 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God.

The Law of God is the only way of showing us who we truly are, sinners in need of a Savior and in this condition we can see for the first time Him who loved us and washed us in His own blood and by faith only lay hold of the promises of Gods Word. (2 Peter 1:4) It is here as we believe God, that he changes us from living a life of breaking God's Law to a life of walking with him. It is through the operation of God through Love because he first loved us that we follow Jesus not for salvation but because of love. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal sinful mind) but after the spirit and why Jesus says to his followers, "If you love me keep the commandments" (John 14:15).

People cannot see that this is the operation of God in the believer and assume God's people believe they are saved by their works, when in fact Jesus is saving us from our sins to walk in newness of life in fulfillment of His new Covenant promise (Heb 8:10-12)...... Gods Sheep hear His Voice salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4) whosoever is living in sin has neither seen him nor known him (1 John 3:6)

In Christ Always!
 
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Copperhead

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For a better perspective, one should look at the root words involved. "the Law" in Hebrew is "Torah". The 5 books of Moses are called the "Torah". The word means teaching. It is from the root word yara. Teacher comes from the same root.

The problem is many with a western mindset view Torah as "The Law" like the civil law. They find it hard to imagine how David could extoll "The Law" all thru the Psalms. Like delighting in the Law and meditating on it day and night. Torah is not like "law" as we know it. Imagine this.. I delight in the speed limit laws, they refresh my soul. Seems kind of stupid doesn't it?

But if we use english words that more closely expresses Torah, it would come across differently.

Psalms 1:2 (NKJV) But his delight is in the Teaching (law) of the Lord,
And in His Instruction (law) he meditates day and night.

"teaching" and "instruction" has a more feel good flavor to it along with being the true expression of what the scripture is trying to convey, and the Hebrew word Torah reflects. And we wouldn't be having all these debates over the centuries about "the law" versus "grace". They are interchangeable. The Torah is an expression of God's grace. It is the instruction on how to live at a paramount level. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
 
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Copperhead

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Wait, our keeping Torah to be saved, and God's gracious choice to save us apart from anything we do, are "interchangeable" soteriologies :scratch:

How so?

Thanks!

--David

See, you make my point. Grace was always a part of Torah. It is not a "keeping the law" kind of thing for salvation, it is a following the instruction and teaching of God kind of thing. Did not David, even after committing murder and adultery, both capital crimes according to Torah, receive grace and forgiveness when he acknowledged his sin, turned from that sin, and sought forgiveness? The Torah set the standard for how to lead a fulfilling life, and repentance and grace was always in view.

The only difference is now the Messiah has come. He is the sacrifice to make atonement for violating the Torah. Many aspects of the Torah have not been abrogated as solid teaching. Do we now get to go have sex with goats? Of course not. Do we now get to go out an hop from bed to bed and have as many partners as we want? Of course not. Is murder now acceptable? Of course not. Is theft, lying, coveting, etc now acceptable? Of course not. The standard and teaching of the Torah is still the same. Back then, if one repented of their sin and offered the proper sacrifice, then forgiveness could be obtained. Now we have the perfect sacrifice... the Messiah. And the Torah gives us the standard of how to live Godly lives.

A proper view of Torah never included the idea of a works salvation thing. Repentance and grace were always in view. The religious leadership had perverted things into a letter of the law thing like the civil laws we have to deal with today. Step out of line and you get your chops busted. But that is not how God intended. How we interact with others and with God has never changed. That is why Yeshua chastised the Pharisees and Saducees so severely while at the same time claiming that not one jot or tittle will pass from the Torah till all be fulfilled. And how he said that anyone who teaches even a little child to violate the Torah, it would be better if he had a stone tied to his neck and tossed into the sea. And it is true even back when the Torah was given, as when Yeshua said that all the Torah could be summed up in two commandments..... Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Does this sound like a works for salvation thing to you?....

Isaiah 1:17-18 (NKJV) Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.
18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Salvation in the Old and the New Covenants for God's people has always been by faith.

It is about believing and following God by faith. Although the process of salvation and forgiveness of sin was different. The Old covenant followed the ceremonial laws of Moses that included the animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sin. God’s people in the Old covenant were saved by the faith they had in God’s Word and following what God said to them. The whole of Galatians 3 and Hebrews 11 are a good read for this check it out. I will just post a few scriptures below to make the point but read Galatians 3, Hebrews 11, Romans and elsewhere for more info.

Gal 3:2,
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:6,
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.


Gal 3:7,
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:8,
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:9,

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Gal 3:14,
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles
through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:16,
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made
. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17,
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Hab 2:4,
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Rom 4:16,
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed
; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 4:17,
As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rom 4:18,
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Rom 4:19,
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

Rom 4:20,
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;


Rom 4:21,
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


Rom 4:22,
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Heb 11:4
,
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Heb 11:5,
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Heb 11:7,
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith
.

Heb 11:8,
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went
.

Heb 11:9,
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 11:10,
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:11,
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Heb 11:17,
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 11:18,
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Heb 11:19,
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Heb 11:20,
By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

Heb 11:21,
By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Heb 11:22,
By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Heb 11:23,
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

Heb 11:24,
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

Heb 11:25,
Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Heb 11:26,
Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Heb 11:27,
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Heb 11:28,
Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Heb 11:29,
By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Heb 11:30,
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

Heb 11:31,
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Heb 11:32, ¶ And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Heb 11:33,
Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

Heb 11:34,
Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Heb 11:35,
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Heb 11:36,
And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

Heb 11:37,
They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

Heb 11:38,
(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Heb 11:39,
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

The main difference is that much of the ceremonial laws pointing to Jesus have been fulfilled under the New Covenant because they pointed to Jesus, His life, death, resurrection and ministration as our great high priest and intercessor on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary.

In Christ Always!
 
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Soyeong

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What is the relationship between the law and the gospel?

The Law was given to reveal what sin is and sin is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).
Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins (Matthew 4:17, 4:23), and the Law was how they knew what they should be repenting of doing, so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is an integral part of the Gospel message.
 
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Soyeong

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For a better perspective, one should look at the root words involved. "the Law" in Hebrew is "Torah". The 5 books of Moses are called the "Torah". The word means teaching. It is from the root word yara. Teacher comes from the same root.

The problem is many with a western mindset view Torah as "The Law" like the civil law. They find it hard to imagine how David could extoll "The Law" all thru the Psalms. Like delighting in the Law and meditating on it day and night. Torah is not like "law" as we know it. Imagine this.. I delight in the speed limit laws, they refresh my soul. Seems kind of stupid doesn't it?

But if we use english words that more closely expresses Torah, it would come across differently.

Psalms 1:2 (NKJV) But his delight is in the Teaching (law) of the Lord,
And in His Instruction (law) he meditates day and night.

"teaching" and "instruction" has a more feel good flavor to it along with being the true expression of what the scripture is trying to convey, and the Hebrew word Torah reflects. And we wouldn't be having all these debates over the centuries about "the law" versus "grace". They are interchangeable. The Torah is an expression of God's grace. It is the instruction on how to live at a paramount level. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Psalms 119:29 Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!
 
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Soyeong

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Wait, our keeping Torah to be saved, and God's gracious choice to save us apart from anything we do, are "interchangeable" soteriologies :scratch:

How so?

Thanks!

--David

The same faith that justifies us also upholds God's instructions (Romans 3:31). Obedience to God's instructions is about depending on Him to guide us in how to rightly live, not about trying to earn our salvation.
 
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Copperhead

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Salvation in the Old and the New Covenants for God's people has always been by faith.

It is about believing and following God by faith. Although the process of salvation and forgiveness of sin was different. The Old covenant followed the ceremonial laws of Moses that included the animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sin. God’s people in the Old covenant were saved by the faith they had in God’s Word and following what God said to them. The whole of Galatians 3 and Hebrews 11 are a good read for this check it out. I will just post a few scriptures below to make the point but read Galatians 3, Hebrews 11, Romans and elsewhere for more info.

Gal 3:2,
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:6,
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Gal 3:7,
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:8,
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:9,

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:14,
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:16,
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made
. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17,
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Hab 2:4,
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Rom 4:16,
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 4:17,
As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rom 4:18,
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Rom 4:19,
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

Rom 4:20,
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Rom 4:21,
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


Rom 4:22,
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Heb 11:4
,
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Heb 11:5,
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Heb 11:7,
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 11:8,
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb 11:9,
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 11:10,
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:11,
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Heb 11:17,
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 11:18,
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Heb 11:19,
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Heb 11:20,
By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

Heb 11:21,
By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Heb 11:22,
By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Heb 11:23,
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

Heb 11:24,
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

Heb 11:25,
Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Heb 11:26,
Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Heb 11:27,
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Heb 11:28,
Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Heb 11:29,
By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Heb 11:30,
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

Heb 11:31,
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Heb 11:32, ¶ And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Heb 11:33,
Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

Heb 11:34,
Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Heb 11:35,
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Heb 11:36,
And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

Heb 11:37,
They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

Heb 11:38,
(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Heb 11:39,
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

The main difference is that much of the ceremonial laws pointing to Jesus have been fulfilled under the New Covenant because they pointed to Jesus, His life, death, resurrection and ministration as our great high priest and intercessor on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary.

In Christ Always!

A few verses? You just about quoted the entire NT! Just a little exaggeration on my part. Don't take it wrong.
 
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St_Worm2

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See, you make my point. Grace was always a part of Torah. It is not a "keeping the law" kind of thing for salvation, it is a following the instruction and teaching of God kind of thing. Did not David, even after committing murder and adultery, both capital crimes according to Torah, receive grace and forgiveness when he acknowledged his sin, turned from that sin, and sought forgiveness? The Torah set the standard for how to lead a fulfilling life, and repentance and grace was always in view.

The only difference is now the Messiah has come. He is the sacrifice to make atonement for violating the Torah. Many aspects of the Torah have not been abrogated as solid teaching. Do we now get to go have sex with goats? Of course not. Do we now get to go out an hop from bed to bed and have as many partners as we want? Of course not. Is murder now acceptable? Of course not. Is theft, lying, coveting, etc now acceptable? Of course not. The standard and teaching of the Torah is still the same. Back then, if one repented of their sin and offered the proper sacrifice, then forgiveness could be obtained. Now we have the perfect sacrifice... the Messiah. And the Torah gives us the standard of how to live Godly lives.

A proper view of Torah never included the idea of a works salvation thing. Repentance and grace were always in view. The religious leadership had perverted things into a letter of the law thing like the civil laws we have to deal with today. Step out of line and you get your chops busted. But that is not how God intended. How we interact with others and with God has never changed. That is why Yeshua chastised the Pharisees and Saducees so severely while at the same time claiming that not one jot or tittle will pass from the Torah till all be fulfilled. And how he said that anyone who teaches even a little child to violate the Torah, it would be better if he had a stone tied to his neck and tossed into the sea. And it is true even back when the Torah was given, as when Yeshua said that all the Torah could be summed up in two commandments..... Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Does this sound like a works for salvation thing to you?....

Isaiah 1:17-18 (NKJV) Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.
18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
Hi again Copperhead, here's the "short" answer :)

Salvation PRECEDES following! (We aren't saved BECAUSE we follow, we follow because we're ALREADY saved) Salvation is by God alone. Soli Deo gloria!

And now, here's the long one (if you dare ^_^):

The rich young ruler asked this question of the Lord in the NT,

Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?” ~Matthew 19:16.​

Jesus answered him saying:

"If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments” ~Matthew 19:17

Clearly, that's what was taught and what was required in the OT to be saved, and you know what, the same thing is still taught and required for salvation today :preach:

As you said, nothing's changed ;) God is still 'perfect' in innocence/holiness/righteousness, and none may enter His presence who are not just as perfect in these attributes as He is. This, of course, is where the problem comes in for those who believe they can be justified on the basis of "following the instruction and teaching of God".

Why? Because no one can be!!

We also know that, "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" ~Hebrews 9:22, and that "it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" ~Hebrews 10:4. So where does that leave us :scratch:

Right here!

The purpose of the law (which includes our absolute need to "follow it's instructions/teachings" perfectly) was never to show an unbeliever how to live/please God AND be saved, rather, it was to demonstrate/show him/her what an impossible dream such a thing really is.

That's why St. Paul calls the Law a παιδαγωγός [paidagogos] / a "harsh tutor" ~Galatians 3:24, whose principle purpose is to show the unbeliever who and what they really are (sinners w/o hope in this world), and then to drive them to feet of Christ in the hope of finding mercy from Him instead of the judgment and condemnation they rightly deserve!

Yeshua is 1. our innocence (the required "spotless Lamb of God") 2. our righteousness (He lived in perfect obedience to fulfill the requirements of the Law for us, every "jot and tittle" :amen: 3. our atonement, the payment to His Father for the sins we committed, His blood being shed on our behalf and in our stead on the Cross. He died so we could live, so we could love, obey and please God, and enjoy Him forever :)

Being "saved by grace" (IOW, by the UN-merited favor of God) doesn't mean that God's favor has no requirements or cost, rather, it just means that Someone else has met all the requirements for us.

It's true that we Christians, "follow the instruction and teaching of God", but NOT to become or remain Christians, we are only able to do so because we already ARE saved. Salvation by God always precedes the following of God.

So, just to recap this "essay" a bit (sorry about the length, but I did give you an "out" up top), we are saved by grace, which simply means that SOMEONE ELSE "followed the instruction and teaching of God" for us, perfectly (because "perfectly" is the ONLY way that the Law can be "followed" .. and none of us can do that, save One).

This is how God is able to be in the business He's in, that is, saving the wicked/ungodly through "faith" alone .. Romans 4:5.

As Christians we become His workmanship .. Ephesians 2:10, created in Christ Jesus for good works (but our works do not save us, rather, they are part that which "accompanies"/is the fruit of our salvation)

Yours and His,
David
 
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St_Worm2

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The same faith that justifies us also upholds God's instructions (Romans 3:31). Obedience to God's instructions is about depending on Him to guide us in how to rightly live, not about trying to earn our salvation.
Hi Soyeong, I agree, of course. But we cannot depend on Someone we do not know (and knowing God requires that we be regenerated/born again and justified/saved, yes?). We are created in Christ FOR good works (FOR "following"), not because we follow!

I'm fairly certain we agree about all of this, but I thought I'd state it again, just in case ;)

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - "following" is impossible for non-Christians, and considering St. Paul's description of "natural" men and women certainly helps make it easy to understand why :preach:

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
.
 
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Copperhead

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Hi again Copperhead, here's the "short" answer :)

Salvation PRECEDES following!

Of course it does. Was not Abraham declared righteous before the Torah? Of course he was. And he was declared righteous on the same basis we are... by trust in the word of the Lord. Even the event where he was commanded to sacrifice Isaac. He knew full well by trust that the Lord would not allow him to sacrifice his son. How? Because he stated, when Isaac asked about where was the animal for the sacrifice, he told Isaac that the Lord would provide the sacrifice. And after this event was over, he declared the hill "on the mount it will be seen". A veiled reference to the future Messiah who would be killed on that same hill. Hebrews shows us we can learn a lot from Abraham's faith.

All of that was based on trust. Total, absolute trust. And he obeyed what the Lord told him to do out of that trust, knowing that Yahweh is a righteous God that embodies the totality of what is good. And that is what the Torah shows us. That while it is the standard for us to live by, we will violate it in the flesh, yet the Lord will reconcile those who violate the teaching if they turn from that sin and seek forgiveness. Everything about the Torah was to cause us to be reliant upon the Lord. Everything about the Torah points to the Messiah. Even after the Torah was given thru Moses, the same path to being righteous didn't change. Belief and trust in the Lord. Torah just exposed more sin in people that was already there by showing what was required to meet the standard of a Holy God. A standard that no one could ever meet, causing them to place their trust and reliance in the grace of the Lord.

The very same thing, as believers, regarding the Messiah, which is the goal of the Torah. When folks start looking at Torah, or "the law", as it was intended, then they can have a reverence for it and how it points straight to the atoning work of Messiah and His death, burial, and resurrection for our justification.

Paul went to great lengths in Romans to state this very same idea.

And people confuse what "law" is being talked about by Paul. Paul mentions the Law of the Spirit, the Torah or law of Moses, the Law of Sin and Death, etc. Sure, we are free of the "law" by trust in Yeshua, but it is the law of sin and death, the penalty for sin against Torah. That law of sin and death was nailed to the cross with Yeshua for those that place their trust in Him. All praise to Him!
 
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BobRyan

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Hi again Copperhead, here's the "short" answer :)

Salvation PRECEDES following! (We aren't saved BECAUSE we follow, we follow because we're ALREADY saved) Salvation is by God alone. Soli Deo gloria!

And now, here's the long one (if you dare ^_^):

The rich young ruler asked this question of the Lord in the NT,

Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?” ~Matthew 19:16.​

Jesus answered him saying:

"If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments” ~Matthew 19:17

Clearly, that's what was taught and what was required in the OT to be saved, and you know what, the same thing is still taught and required for salvation today :preach:

Jesus was right ...
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Jesus was not teaching the false doctrine of "have no faith in me - just live a sinless life"

Jesus said "one more thing you lack - sell all that you have and come and join this group of 12 disciples" - Jesus did not tell him "select a different Messiah" or "choose another religion" ... neither did he preach the false doctrine of "reject the Gospel - just continue to be sinless".
 
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BobRyan

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Of course it does. Was not Abraham declared righteous before the Torah? Of course he was. And he was declared righteous on the same basis we are... by trust in the word of the Lord.

And now.. the short form

"There is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9
"that Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8:56
 
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St_Worm2

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Jesus was right ...
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Jesus was not teaching the false doctrine of "have no faith in me - just live a sinless life"

Jesus said "one more thing you lack - sell all that you have and come and join this group of 12 disciples" - Jesus did not tell him "select a different Messiah" or "choose another religion" ... neither did he preach the false doctrine of "reject the Gospel - just continue to be sinless".
Saints obey the commandments because we're ALREADY saved Bob, because we already know the Savior (not to become saved and not to remain saved).

We are saved by grace through faith APART from anything we do, save believing (which is only possible because of the gift of saving faith that the Lord gives to those who are His .. Ephesians 2:8-9).

Obeying the commandments unto life would mean obeying them like Jesus did, otherwise you are nothing more than a transgressor of the law .. James 2:10-11. If the rich young ruler could have obeyed all of the commandments perfectly from birth until death, I suppose salvation may have been possible for him based upon his obedience. But we know he couldn't, and neither can anyone else .. Romans 3:23. EVERYONE needs the Savior if they hope to see life.

In Christ,
David

John 5
24 He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Friends,

It is important to believe all of God's Word because that is where life to the believer comes from (Matthew 4:4). It will be the Word of God that will judge us in the last days (John 12:47-48). Salvation is from sin and not in sin. If your faith leads to a life of known unrepentant sin you have not been born again and do not know Jesus and do not have the faith of God’s Word (James 2:20).

The Gospel is not Jesus calling the righteous but sinners to repentance (Matthew 9:13). Whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin and if the son shall make you free you shall be free indeed (John 8:34-36). Jesus says, Marvel not that I say unto you, Ye must be born again. (John 3:7) because whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9). Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God (Luke 8:11).

It is only by faith in God's Word that we have salvation from sin. Jesus says; If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free from sin (John 8:31-36). For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). Only sinners that need a Savior have salvation because the sinner knows he cannot save himself (Matthew 9:13; John 15:5). We are not saved by God's Law (Romans 3:20). God's Law gives us a knowledge of sin and brings us to Jesus so we can be saved (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:30; Romans 7:7; Galatians 3:24).

There is no Gospel without God's Law because there is no knowledge of sin. If there is no knowledge of sin there is no need of a Savior. If there is no need of a Savior there is no salvation. If there is no salvation you are lost and without hope and the scripture is fulfilled for as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law (Romans 2:12). Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (Romans 3:31).

Now it’s time for an intermission and the reason why we love him..


We love him because he first loved us (1 John 4:19). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 13:9-10; Romans 8:4).. Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments... (John 14:15) If you are not you are not following God and do not have the love of God in you (1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10) All I can say is that I love Jesus and wish you all only love, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost who God gives to those that obey him through faith (Acts 5:32).

James tells us that if we break one of God’s commandments we are guilty before God of breaking all of God’s Law and are in danger of the judgement. (James 2:8-12).

1 John 2:3-4,
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This includes God’s 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath which people today neglect to follow the traditions and teachings of man over the Word of God (Matthew 15:3-9). Sin is the transgression of God's Law (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:17) and if we knowingly and willfully break it and are not repentant we are in danger of the judgement (James 2:10-12). This is why Jesus says to his true followers; If you love me keep the commandments (John 14:15) because it is only by Love that he saves us and Love is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 13:9-10; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 8:4). This is why we need to be born again with a new heart (Matthew 5:20; Matthew 7:21; John 3:3-5; 1 John 3:9; Luke 8:11)

He must increase and I must decrease. If you want salvation you will only find it through Jesus and Jesus is the Word of God. (John 1:1-3; John 12-14; 30)

In Christ Always!
 
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