The Kurds might not be able to hold against ISIS

Gxg (G²)

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mindlight

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Gxg (G²);66129420 said:
If we claim Christ, then there really is no way of escaping the bottom line reality that love for our enemies is what Christ has called for and advocated ......

Your post was a long but interesting one. You share an error which i believe has handicapped the Christian witness to Muslims for centuries.

The only way to stop Jihaddist Islam, the Nazis or indeed the evil empire of Soviet Communism was by force. Islam has never been displaced from territories it has conquered except by force. Al Qaeda is a spent force now because its leaders have been systematically assassinated for a decade. The same will probably happen to IS. You show no love to your enemies by simply handing them over to false ideologies. There are 2 kinds of witness that Saladin one of the greatest Muslim leaders will listen to - Richard the Lion heart and St Francis of Assisi. Christians are the former to the group and the latter to the person.

The deeper force in Germany of which Hitler was the symptom but also an enabler was Prussian militarism. Anti Semitism was completely broken in Germany by defeat in war and it is ignorance to cite any other cause.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Gxg (G²)
If we claim Christ, then there really is no way of escaping the bottom line reality that love for our enemies is what Christ has called for and advocated ......
Yeah...Paul felt the same way
Romans 12:20
Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."
[Probverbs 25:21]

Your post was a long but interesting one. You share an error which i believe has handicapped the Christian witness to Muslims for centuries.

The only way to stop Jihaddist Islam, the Nazis or indeed the evil empire of Soviet Communism was by force. Islam has never been displaced from territories it has conquered except by force. Al Qaeda is a spent force now because its leaders have been systematically assassinated for a decade. The same will probably happen to IS. You show no love to your enemies by simply handing them over to false ideologies.

There are 2 kinds of witness that Saladin one of the greatest Muslim leaders will listen to - Richard the Lion heart and St Francis of Assisi. Christians are the former to the group and the latter to the person.

.
I would never had heard of Saladin and his conquering of Jerusalem if I had not watched the movie "Kingodom of Heaven".
The actor playing Saladin was quite good, as was the music and movie itself.

Kingdom of Heaven DC: Saladin Tribute [HD] - YouTube

Saladin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb (Arabic: صلاح الدين يوسف بن أيوب‎; Kurdish: سهلاحهدین ئه , Selahedînê Eyûbî)
(1137/1138 – March 4, 1193), better known in the Western world as Saladin, was the first Sultan of Egypt and Syria and the founder of the Ayyubid dynasty.

A Muslim of Kurdish[1][2][3] origin, Saladin led the Muslim opposition to the European Crusaders in the Levant. At the height of his power, his sultanate included Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, Hejaz, Yemen, and other parts of North Africa...........




Under Saladin's personal leadership, the Ayyubid army defeated the Crusaders at the decisive Battle of Hattin in 1187, leading the way to the Muslims' re-capture of Palestine from the Crusaders who had conquered it 88 years earlier. Though the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem would continue to exist for an extended period, its defeat at Hattin marked a turning point in its conflict with the Muslim powers of the region. Saladin has become a prominent figure in Muslim, Arab, Turk and Kurdish culture.[4] In 1193 he died in Damascus, having given much of his wealth to his subjects. Saladin is buried in a mausoleum adjacent to the Umayyad Mosque.







.
 
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Nithavela

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Sadly, there is still too much antisemitism in Germany. It has receded to fringe parties, fraternities and drinking groups of old men.

It isn't acceptable anymore, but it was not destroyed, neither by war or peace.

And Saladin was a liberator, not a conqueror. He was even respected as chivalrous by his contemporary christian adversaries.

Maybe you should really follow the example of Richard the Lionheart towards Saladin and send the muslims gifts.
 
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Senator Cheese

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Sadly, there is still too much antisemitism in Germany. It has receded to fringe parties, fraternities and drinking groups of old men.

Uhm. I don't really think the problem is those few spazzes at the university frat parties.
I think the problem are these (if you find the time, at least watch the first video for 4 seconds - I already forwarded to the appropriate time 2:57):

Antisemitische Ausschreitungen nach Linksjugend-Demo | 18.07.2014 Essen - YouTube

Antisemitische Volksverhetzung bei Pro-Hamas-Demo in Berlin (17.7.2014) - YouTube
 
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mindlight

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Sadly, there is still too much antisemitism in Germany. It has receded to fringe parties, fraternities and drinking groups of old men.

It isn't acceptable anymore, but it was not destroyed, neither by war or peace.

And Saladin was a liberator, not a conqueror. He was even respected as chivalrous by his contemporary christian adversaries.

Maybe you should really follow the example of Richard the Lionheart towards Saladin and send the muslims gifts.

I have lived here 7 years and my wife decades and we have never heard a single anti-semitic joke. Aside from extremist Muslim or Nazi groups it is just not happening. Are you East German or over 80? Germans tend to be a little blind when it comes to the Palestinian question for instance but that is as far as it goes.

By the way Saladin lost at Acre, Arsuf and Jaffa to King Richard. Saladin was respected though as perhaps the greatest of all Muslim leaders in their golden age. Interestingly also he was a Kurd.
 
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Uhm. I don't really think the problem is those few spazzes at the university frat parties.
I think the problem are these (if you find the time, at least watch the first video for 4 seconds - I already forwarded to the appropriate time 2:57):

Antisemitische Ausschreitungen nach Linksjugend-Demo | 18.07.2014 Essen - YouTube

Antisemitische Volksverhetzung bei Pro-Hamas-Demo in Berlin (17.7.2014) - YouTube

The Germans left wing have a very distorted perspective on the state of Israel but very few native Germans would say that that meant they were antisemitic. There are extremists in every group. But they do not equate Anti Zionism with anti Semitism. Since the state of Israel is protecting Jews from annihilation by groups like Hamas, IS and Hezbollah it is a naivety in the German brain. Also the IS banners at these rallies were probably carried by Islamist for whom rebel groups are a tool. Germans are not personally antiSemitic but a disturbing number are passionately anti Zionist.
 
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Nithavela

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I have lived here 7 years and my wife decades and we have never heard a single anti-semitic joke. Aside from extremist Muslim or Nazi groups it is just not happening. Are you East German or over 80? Germans tend to be a little blind when it comes to the Palestinian question for instance but that is as far as it goes.

And chances are, you won't.

Doesn't mean antisemitism doesn't exist and is far more widespread than you think.

And yes, the extreme left has its problems, too. Those fools have long since lost my respect with their self-assuredness and willingness to bash everyone with a different opinion.
 
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Senator Cheese

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The Germans left wing have a very distorted perspective on the state of Israel but very few native Germans would say that that meant they were antisemitic. There are extremists in every group. But they do not equate Anti Zionism with anti Semitism. Since the state of Israel is protecting Jews from annihilation by groups like Hamas, IS and Hezbollah it is a naivety in the German brain. Also the IS banners at these rallies were probably carried by Islamist for whom rebel groups are a tool. Germans are not personally antiSemitic but a disturbing number are passionately anti Zionist.

I agree that most native Germans aren't anti-semitic and even the anti-Zionists are (I would guess) in a slight minority.
Still, the "demonstrations" of our Muslim minorities has been unprecedented, with many cheering "Death to the Jews!", "Adolf Hitler! Adolf Hitler!" (first videos) or "Jew, Jew, cowardly pig, come out alone!" - not to mention that there have been several violent attacks on Jews and others.

It's not just the groups of demonstrators, it's mostly the one-sidedness of their facebook posts and militant comments towards dissenting opinions. Even absolutely apolitical colleagues who enjoy university education reiterated pro-Hamas sentiments and commented on a "Demonstration against Antisemitism" with statements like "anyone who has been to that demo should be beat up". Again, these are university absolvents - not your average dumbdiddle.

And I think that's what's shocking to most Germans, because we actually thought that integration had been working, at least for those immigrants who enjoy higher education. :/

Good to know that you guys haven't encountered these kinds of problems. I'm guessing they're more of a problem in the inner city.
 
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And chances are, you won't.

Doesn't mean antisemitism doesn't exist and is far more widespread than you think.

And yes, the extreme left has its problems, too. Those fools have long since lost my respect with their self-assuredness and willingness to bash everyone with a different opinion.

Many in the extreme left are Antizionist, but I've seen a 100% degree turn in left-wing newspaper reportings. They still criticise Israel, which is their right, but interestingly it is especially the TAZ who has begun to discuss the topic of proper integration and how to tackle the problems of a radically Islamic youth.
Though, admittedly, it might have to do with the fact that one of their reporters was beat up so bad he landed in an Intensive Care Unit on one of those "demonstrations".

Either way, I have long thought of left-wing politics in Germany to be very naiive - and yet they are the ones that are actively discussing this problem instead of sweeping it under the rug. And I give kudos for that.
 
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TLK Valentine

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We are commanded to kill the enemies of Jesus (Luke 19:27)

As a nonbeliever, I could be considered an "enemy of Jesus" -- should I be killed?
 
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And chances are, you won't.

Doesn't mean antisemitism doesn't exist and is far more widespread than you think.

And yes, the extreme left has its problems, too. Those fools have long since lost my respect with their self-assuredness and willingness to bash everyone with a different opinion.

Well you are opening my eyes to something which i find deeply shocking. The student world here can get cut off from reality and some of the leftwing political groups are deranged but i never thought they were this stupid.
 
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I agree that most native Germans aren't anti-semitic and even the anti-Zionists are (I would guess) in a slight minority.
Still, the "demonstrations" of our Muslim minorities has been unprecedented, with many cheering "Death to the Jews!", "Adolf Hitler! Adolf Hitler!" (first videos) or "Jew, Jew, cowardly pig, come out alone!" - not to mention that there have been several violent attacks on Jews and others.

It's not just the groups of demonstrators, it's mostly the one-sidedness of their facebook posts and militant comments towards dissenting opinions. Even absolutely apolitical colleagues who enjoy university education reiterated pro-Hamas sentiments and commented on a "Demonstration against Antisemitism" with statements like "anyone who has been to that demo should be beat up". Again, these are university absolvents - not your average dumbdiddle.

And I think that's what's shocking to most Germans, because we actually thought that integration had been working, at least for those immigrants who enjoy higher education. :/

Good to know that you guys haven't encountered these kinds of problems. I'm guessing they're more of a problem in the inner city.

Well there is something clearly wrong with a higher education system that produces such violent blind and dishonest actions. I never thought i would hear slogans such as the one you mentioned which sounds even worse in German. I have Turkish neighbours that are just not like that and German neighbours that just do not think like that.

EDIT:
Having discussed this with some German police i am sure that the number of actual antisemitic incidents is very low and confined to a small but noisy minority of radical Islamists ( mainly disowned by most Muslims) and some students - most of whom will grow out of it. But the number of Nazi incidents is actually very low
 
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Nithavela

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Well you are opening my eyes to something which i find deeply shocking. The student world here can get cut off from reality and some of the leftwing political groups are deranged but i never thought they were this stupid.

The usual slogan in my city is "Antifa means attacking" and "No discussion" and other, more violant ones. There has been slander and physical attacks galore, and anything fraternities do (even the moderate ones) is met with vicious counterprotests and willfull demolition.

On the other hand, it might of course be my perception that is skewed.
 
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Uhm. I don't really think the problem is those few spazzes at the university frat parties.
I think the problem are these (if you find the time, at least watch the first video for 4 seconds - I already forwarded to the appropriate time 2:57):

Antisemitische Ausschreitungen nach Linksjugend-Demo | 18.07.2014 Essen - YouTube

Antisemitische Volksverhetzung bei Pro-Hamas-Demo in Berlin (17.7.2014) - YouTube

These guys are acting very foolishly. The Hitler salute is a prosecutable offence. 90% of them are young male Turks. The slogans are racist
and the number of identifiable native Germans very low. They have all had their picture taken.

But there is a trend in the German media back towards a disguised antiSemitism. This article from 2004 seems to identify many of the themes in this.

Anti-Semitism In Germany Today: Its Roots And Tendencies - Susanne Urban

Most Germans are not antiSemitic and would be horrified to have this label applied to them.

But maybe this not being handled so conscientiously as in days past.

Historian slams Germany for ignoring anti-semitism | JPost | Israel News
 
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Nithavela

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The other side of the problem is that even legitimate criticism of jews or israel can invite accusations of anti-semitism.

And the other other side of the problem is that when some does or says antisemitic stuff and is rightfully criticised for it, he can then claim that it is legitimate and the accusations are only done because of a kneejerk reaction.

In short, it's a mess.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Your post was a long but interesting one. You share an error which i believe has handicapped the Christian witness to Muslims for centuries.

The only way to stop Jihaddist Islam, the Nazis or indeed the evil empire of Soviet Communism was by force.
IMHO, there's a pulling the cart before the horse mindset - assuming (because force was used to stop something) that it was the only thing that could have been done.

That error simplifies several historical factors on the matter without actually dealing in the facts of where other Jihaddist Muslims (just as it was with others who were Soviet Communists or Nazis) often came down due to economical errors largely and NOT just force. That's a basic reality numerous economosts have noted over the decades.

With Nazi Germany, people often forget where it was America that originally funded the Nazi War machine to become what it was - and the mirage of "Force and War took them out!!!" is illusionary seeing how much of the war was really staged at multiple points. We cannot avoid simple facts in history when it comes to how often we have economically supported and funded the enemies we create - and then made the illusion of us having saved the world through military power/might...


There was an excellent book on the issue that came to mind by Oliver Stone/Peter Kuznick entitled The Untold History of the United States



On where the U.S economically created and harmed Hitler, one can go to Banking With Hitler - Watch Free Documentary Online

Banking with hitler - YouTube
Zeitgeist: The Movie (HD) Part III - Men Behind the Curtain - YouTube
Untold History: Early US Imperialism, Hitler, Roosevelt, The Spanish Civil War - YouTube
DVD6 A BBC4 Storyville Why We Fight - YouTube

Much of this goes right back to the dynamic present with how the U.S has often gotten involved in situations which it helped to create directly - making it and its actions seem like it was the solution when it was nowhere near the case. This is a part of the dynamic of militarism and expansionism in various ways - Neo Imperialism. The Spanish-American War immediately comes to mind since that's where it began to take off...and what happened in the Philippines also comes to mind. Places for study on the matter would be "Race and Imperialism: Iraq Now and the Philippines Then" ( ), where William L. Katz presents the occupation of Iraq from the perspective of the 1898 US invasion of the Philippines and the murderous colonial rule that lasted for 12 years. .

Other dynamics on the matter can also be seen in what occurred with r as noted elsewherethe Haitian Revolution that allowed for the first successful slave revolt on a national scale, we saw more of the same when the U.S later intervened there to "protect" the nation from itself (even though it also kept it behind intentionally).

The only way to stop Jihaddist Islam, the Nazis or indeed the evil empire of Soviet Communism was by force.
Ultimately, what matters is the power of the GOSPEL - and whether or not we believe it as Jesus said. Not what my opinion is - or what yours is. But what Christ did and what he advocated. Period.

If one doesn't believe Christ is capable of converting others EN Masse by force when He is preached, one misses what Christ actually said. We already have what happened with many missionaries within Communist Russia - some of the most notable being people such as E. Stanley Jones. And we have many testimonies and examples in history where such has occurred. With the rise of Radical Islam, it cannot be ig igniredmany have noted that it tends to rise in areas where there's high impoverishment of communities/neglect and others who were turned off by what has been represented in Western Christianity.

As noted best elsewhere, "In Egypt, the Fundamentalists are recruited mostly from active youth in their twenties and thirties. They are university students and graduates who tend to be conscientious and ambitious. Furthermore, most of these recruits spent their childhood in villages and little
towns. Ahmad agrees that Fundamen- talism in Egypt is most appealing to these groups
." Amazingly, many who went into Extreme Radical Islam came from backgrounds where they were either struggling with socioeconomic realities that were left unaddressed and thus the promise of spiritual blessings for giving their lives became appealing....or others were exchange students who saw A LOT of the ways that Western Culture/Western Christianity (very akin to the Crusades in their view) came in/demonized all in their world. /URL].

For more, one can investigate[URL="https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:8MxjvKg13R4J:www.strategicnetwork.org/pdf/kb8338.pdf+Waging+Peace+on+Islam:+Christine+Mallouhi+radical&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiRvT9_Rh2w22OAlcc0G43ayZdoX3x7T256fi70DMGShaUdXTR3d9N2vGTzqBcJVgZL2n_JAwH6f2BpACWh2t52es5Jhm0A69aViAcSs22Ag3z8sjw0q9DViNOCi1krvR6HPIFo&sig=AHIEtbR-OwYSaEh4iS9McmIzpf5rBVm6Vg"] A Christian Perspective on Islam and Terrorism
by Rick Love, PhD (the International Director of Frontiers ).

The bottom line is that many are coming up in massive ways from Radical Islam not by force - just as it was in other places

The only way to stop Jihaddist Islam, the Nazis or indeed the evil empire of Soviet Communism was by force.

And as said before, I never said force did not have its place. As I noted plainly in the same post:

Gxg (G²);66129420 said:
I have NO issue (and I do mean none) with others being able to arm themselves with regards to self-defense[/URL], as Christ was never against that. There were so many saints involved in the Early Church who were warriors in the physical sense and others who were warriors more so from the spiritual sense (like the monks ), yet all were used greatly for Christ ( more in Monastics vs Military Might: Is Self-Defense against Perversion Right?


It is what it is...

Al Qaeda is a spent force now because its leaders have been systematically assassinated for a decade. The same will probably happen to IS. .
That's the line that has been touted multiple times with the U.S news feeds when it comes to spreading the falsehood that we did not create Al Qaeda - for what has happened with the ISIS is a matter of evolution since the U.S created them since they were able to break off from Al Queda/use our weapons.

The situation of mass exodus/immigration that has arisen for the Iraqi Christians /Muslim minorities suffering severe persecution by others after U.S intervention in the area ...their being denied entry into the U.S is similar to what happened to other groups enduring the same, like the Hmong who were abandoned by the U.S after what happened with governments waging wars by proxy in Laos and the U.S lost, abandoning those they called to their side to others...and then having it where those groups were not acknowledged by the U.S when they sought refuge.

Battles by proxy have led to so much damage (more shared in The New War in Iraq: US Occupation Shifts to Proxy Subversion | Global Research and others:


For Christians everywhere, there are a lot of battles - but it is financially beneficial to tear down Christian communities in support of Radical Islam - and that is something the U.S actually gains a lot from. Artificial war. They did a good synopsis on the matter here - as seen in Nineveh is Fallen | Orthodox England. Essentially, as noted there, everything with the "enemies" the West went after in Iraq was designed by the West. And in toppling them over to bring "democracy", democracy is now being demolished by the same people who were funded by the West. It's sad to see how many don't consider their situation and where they are significant in history (more shared here and in Cairo death poll passes 500). It's a vicious cycle...

Again, facts are facts and we have to deal with them as they are ..
You show no love to your enemies by simply handing them over to false ideologies.
Indeed.

Advocating militarism is one of those ideologies which Christ never supported as a part of His message at any point - and the same goes for not acknowleding where the Gospel alone can save and has changed others...His Message and what He advocated, from the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-39 to loving your enemies by blessing them according to Luke 6


We're not of this world and militarism has never been what Jesus has been for.
...There are 2 kinds of witness that Saladin one of the greatest Muslim leaders will listen to - Richard the Lion heart and St Francis of Assisi. Christians are the former to the group and the latter to the person
Christians have already had numerous instances of being St. Francis of Assisi to the GROUP - that is what often gets ignored when it comes to avoiding group efforts and organizations doing extensive work in the Muslim world and seeing Christ transform people entirely.

Salidin was not oblivious to this nor were others and we cannot avoid history on the matter

The deeper force in Germany of which Hitler was the symptom but also an enabler was Prussian militarism. Anti Semitism was completely broken in Germany by defeat in war and it is ignorance to cite any other cause.
Anti- Semitism was never completely broken - I've been to Germany and have had family live there and there are PLENTY of Skin Head groups who are present...and others who do not like Jewish people. It'd be ignorant to claim otherwise - Neo Nazis are alive and well. It became less and was punished more after WWII - but it never died or came anywhere close. Messianic Jews and other Jews have noted this repeatedly and thus we cannot have our heads in the sand on the matter.

And as it concerns Hitler and Prussian Militarism, as another noted best:

[INDENTHitler crushed Prussian militarism forever. It was no historical accident that it was the truly Prussian element of the German officer corps who staged several attempts on Hitler's life. Hitler, indeed, established (albeit in a perverted way) civilian control over the military.
[/INDENT]


It cannot be ignored when it comes to remembering that many representatives of the old Prussian tradition were staunchly against the Nazis, and even sought to overthrow them. Specifically, among the Kreisau circle were Helmuth James Graf von Moltke and Peter Yorck von Wartenburg, both descendents of prominent Prussian generals. Even the Prussians in the army despised him, as Gerd von Rundstedt derided Hitler as "the Bohemian Corporal" - but the problem with Prussian military tradition in World War II was not that they were militaristic... for they simply allowed themselves to be ruled over by a madman ...and thus, to even see Hitler as a direct continuation of that tradition is stretching the matter past the limits of history.

More can be read in Hitler and America - Klaus P. Fischer - Google Books
 
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