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The Kurds might not be able to hold against ISIS

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by mindlight, Aug 5, 2014.

  1. GarfieldJL

    GarfieldJL Regular Member

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    Except the problem with your argument is that Iran is a state sponsor of terror, and the Iranians were largely the ones that armed a lot of ISIS in the first place...
     
  2. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    That statement you will have to stand for,

    What do say to my post#37,

    I do not follow the news, I have no means to, I have the internet, but not for that kind of thing,

    The glimt I get is here on CF, but most of those threads I don,t bother to read.

    I know zero about Islam,
    don,t Think I,m obligated to either.
     
  3. GarfieldJL

    GarfieldJL Regular Member

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    ISIS got a lot of their weapons from Iran when Iran was trying to destabilize Iraq. That being said, Iran probably didn't anticipate this blowing up in their face like this.

    ISIS is targetting Christians and Shiite muslims, Iran is Majority Shiite, so they probably want to take down ISIS because they're a bunch of fanatical nutcases.

    In all honesty, I would suggest that the Iraqi Government and the Kurds clear Egyptian, Jordanian, and possibly Israeli air forces to conduct military airstrikes (the fact ISIS was crazy enough to threaten Mecca may actually be enough to get other middle eastern countries to turn a blind eye to Israel jumping into the fight). Considering Israel has the best airforce in the Middle East (arguably the best in the world as far as piloting skill), Egypt either has the 2nd or 3rd most powerful airforce, and Jordan would be a good staging ground to launch attacks, it is reasonable to assume they could take ISIS down a few pegs.
     
  4. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    Well, reckon Muslim "countries" should play a leading role in bringing an end to it.

    Otherwise I fear for the many muslim neighbours I have.

    Was wondering if they feel embarassed over the situation.
     
  5. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    If we claim Christ, then there really is no way of escaping the bottom line reality that love for our enemies is what Christ has called for and advocated - it was never just love for those who were suffering....but also love/mercy for those who are being harmed as well. Luke 6:17-38 was rather direct when it came to what Christ said on the matter of how we're to treat those who are our enemies.

    And others in the Early Church echoed the same sentiments when they were being harmed as well. Hate will only produce hate - and that is exactly what fuels those who do evil. You cannot kill a spirit - for the same demonic spirit that drove them to do the evil things they began in the first place will simply jump to someone else. However, you can control how much influence the demon has upon others if you infect them with the love you have...

    As others in the Early Church noted best:


    “Whoever prays for those who hurt him lays the demons low; but he who opposes his affronter is bound to the demons.”

    – St. Mark the Ascetic, Homilies, 1.45


    “If you are remembering evil against someone, then pray for him; and as you remove through prayer the pain of the remembrance of the evil he has done, you will stop the advance of the passion. And when you have attained brotherly love and love for mankind, you will completely cast this passion out of your soul. Then when someone else does evil to you, be affectionate and humble toward him, and treat him kindly, and you will deliver him from this passion.”

    – St. Maximus the Confessor, Chapters on Love, 3.90




    "At Babylon the daughter of an important person was possessed by a devil. A monk for whom her father had a great affection came to the house. When the monk arrived, the woman possessed with the devil came and slapped him. But he only turned the other cheek, according to the Lord's command (cf. Mt. 5:39). The devil, tortured by this, cried out, 'What violence! The commandment of Jesus drives me out.' Immediately the woman was cleansed. This is how the pride of the devil is brought low, through the humility of the commandment of Christ."

    ~Abba Daniel of the Desert


    For further reference on practical ways others have sought to live this out:



    Additionally, to be clear, I have shared my own thoughts elsewhere as it concerns the issue of Radical Islam and how we're to respond to it and take it seriously when it comes to violence (as seen here and here/here/here/here, herec and here). Military intervention is not always the best and it is because of U.S military intervention that much of the crisis began in the first place....just as it did with Syria and other places (more shared here and in Cairo death poll passes 500). As said elsewhere:


    Hopefully that clarifies...

    Been to Germany myself. And having friends who grew up in Germany (one of them being a German pastor I worked with extensively and another one of them being a Messianic Jewish mom who lives there with her family), I understand where you're coming from. I am not ignorant to the evils that were done in Nazi Germany nor I am ignorant to the ways that others were taken out due to military action.

    Nonetheless, the ways that others often assume that Germany alone is the basis for showing that militarism was a solution to issues......it is not as if Germany was the only place in the world that had problems like what you describe. We can see the Armenian Genocide, the Hmong and many other groups.

    I'm often amazed at people often assume that taking out Hitler would've stopped WWII---and the same thing as it concerns WWI with military action alone solving issues.

    For in both situations prior to the rise of Hitler and afterward, even admist the background of Germany being economically devestated during WWI aftemath by having to pay the bill for a war that the entire world was involved in (unfair) and open to radical action, it does seem that many other evils that happened later may've found a way to develop regardless.

    Adolph Hitler took advantage of a situation that was already well under way when he was born. Antisemitism was rife in Germany, as was the belief in the natural superiority of the aryan race. Martin Luther was antisemitic. Pogroms had been conducted on numerous occasions against the Jews living in Germany. During the 19th century a congregant in a german church could expect to hear a sermon that was virulently antisemitic whenever he atttended a church service. Blind hatred had taken on the disguise of sanctity long before the 20th century dawned.

    Was Hitler the impetus that led the people of Germany to replace rhetoric with firing squads and gas chambers? Yes, he was. But can we say that another person would not have done the same thing if Hitler himself had been killed earlier? No, we cannot. The hatred was too widespread, with too many people seeing the Jews as worthy only of death. Had Hitler not been there to fill the role of leadership, there would have been another to take his place. The perversion of sanctity had simply gotten to the point where the people were waiting for anyone at all to give them the order to kill.


    Again, anti-semitism was something that pervaded the culture of Germany in many ways LONG before Hitler arrived...even though there were others who actively resisted against it. With Hitler himself, he was but a figurehead in many ways of the the desires of the general populace in many areas---and if the crowd was already distrustful of Jews, it's not a suprise to see how Hitler was able to get so much action backing him with combatting them. The radical mindset that accompanied the economic devestation of Germany during Hitler's rise would have found something else to attach itself to at some point...

    And spiritually, many of the Churches in Germany also did their part in ensuring that much of how the Jews were seen was shown in a negative sense. Sadly, many of the churches in Germany did great error in aiding the Nazi regime and viewing the Jews wrongly...and the consequences are still here today...even though others often try to scapegoat things onto Hitler. For some good reviews:

    Indeed, in many ways, Hitler would have simply been replaced by someone else had he been taken out long before he had the opportunity to do anything. And not realizing that can cause a world of actions to occur that may miss the root cause of things. Some of it seems similar to what occurred with 9/11 and how many were either demanding the bombing of the countries that terrorists came from---or demanding that all the terrorists be eliminated. For as another said, "You can kill the man who killed..but you cannot kill the spirit which drove him to killing." If a spirit of hatred was already existing and that spirit was birthed out of a certain mindset that was never addressed, one can only go so far in trying to selectively deal with people......


    Again, what is often avoided (as many Germans have attested to) is the fact that the military action taken was not enough to erase the anti-semitism that actually led up to much of the genocides toward the Jewish people alongside other minority groups who were harmed - the U.S, in fact, was having extensive actions of genocide in its own history and was actively oppressing blacks in its own territory and saying nothing, from Jim Crow to beatings to lynchings and many other things. And MANY Jews experienced racism in the U.S also - both BEFORE the U.S/Allies came over and afterward. And the Blacks who died in the Holocaust of Germany as well as in German Holocausts throughout Africa is something that that goes alongside that. Militarism alone did not come anywhere close to saving the day.

    There is a reason others stand out such as Deitrich Bonheffer - who was committed to changing others one life at a time and was deeply impacted by what he witnessed at Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem and the struggles Blacks had to deal with for centuries when it came to oppression, violence and a culture of death. Although his views changed in time, of course, he was still very much aware of how militarism was not always the SOLE solution to take when changing a cultural dynamic...

    To be clear, of course I am not against the concept of self-defense. As a Black Hispanic, that is a basic reality that people in my culture had to deal with actively when it came to being left to themselves and having no protection from their local government - it is why I have NO issue (and I do mean none) with others being able to arm themselves with regards to self-defense, as Christ was never against that. There were so many saints involved in the Early Church who were warriors in the physical sense and others who were warriors more so from the spiritual sense (like the monks ), yet all were used greatly for Christ ( more in Monastics vs Military Might: Is Self-Defense against Perversion Right?

    I think where others get into trouble is assuming that the surrounding powers are NOT already involved in setting the situation up as it is...but that is ignoring the history behind how the IRAQ situation got developed and the U.S actively helped on shaping the matter. For reference:


    The same dynamics with the U.S making the Iraq region unstable and thus in the position of needing to look to the U.S as a "savior" (and subject to its agenda) has happened in other places, especially Africa (with many regretting they ever asked for help after seeing how things got worse)
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  6. Blessedj01

    Blessedj01 Guest

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    We didn't make ISIS but we did help to create the situation. However now we are trying to wash our hands of it and sitting back while the Iraqi government appears powerless to stop them. Collectively we want to do nothing and that wont help.
     
  7. Blessedj01

    Blessedj01 Guest

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    Interesting post, gxg. Thankyou.
     
  8. GarfieldJL

    GarfieldJL Regular Member

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    I would also point out the flaw in people's argument when they say that the US created ISIS, because using that logic they are saying we shouldn't be responsible and go clean up the mess that, according to them, we're responsible for...

    Obama had a chance to do serious damage to ISIS without causing civilian casualties some months back, and he chose to do nothing, I would call that gross negligence on his part.
     
  9. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    And we helped arm Iran -- looks like nobody's hands are clean...
     
  10. Blessedj01

    Blessedj01 Guest

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    Yeah, well I'm always against removing the personal responsibility of wrongdoers. That excuse never worked for me before the judge in the courts in my old days.
     
  11. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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  12. S.ilvio

    S.ilvio Newbie

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    As a XChristian I say thank you to the Obama administration for this offer. It may be late in coming but its never too late to do the right thing...
     
  13. MasterRich

    MasterRich Jesus Saved me on Easter Day! 03/04/2010

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    Are there any aid companies offering to help them out? Asking for donations and such?
     
  14. High Fidelity

    High Fidelity Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I doubt Hezbollah and Hamas will fight ISIS.

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.
     
  15. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Yes it is never too late to do the right thing. Wise words.
     
  16. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    See my signature for Barnabus. There is also a large Anglican church in Baghdad that is doing all it can to help victims of ISIS from every religious background not just Christians

    Make a donation to FRRME today!

    This is the pastor speaking on the present troubles. I met this guy before the troubles and was deeply encouraged by his faith in what must be one the most difficult ministry postings in the world.

    [youtube]BweJKj2DHkw[/youtube]

    The Catholics are also very active.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  17. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    In the case of Hamas it is clear they hate Israel most. With Hezbollah it is harder to say. i think it is not clear who they hate more - Sunnis or Jews. I can imagine their heads spinning round and steam coming out of their ears as they wrestle with conflicting hatreds.
     
  18. Blessedj01

    Blessedj01 Guest

    +0
    This really is getting serious, isn't it. I think the world has totally missed the ball.

    Too many people in this day and age think that the world is a massive place where things aren't connected.
     
  19. High Fidelity

    High Fidelity Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I imagine they'll take any help they can get.

    If you're drowning, it doesn't really matter whose hand reaches to help you.
     
  20. MasterRich

    MasterRich Jesus Saved me on Easter Day! 03/04/2010

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    Thanks! :thumbsup:
     
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