The Known Facts

[dlamberth]

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I've been thinking about this some.

John, while you hang onto the creation myths of an ancient middle-eastern nomanic warrior tribe, through the sciences, God has opened many windows into His Creation. If we Lovers of God don't take advantage of these new windows being opened into His ways, we miss an opportunity to seek God.

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[Abongil]

I've been thinking about this some.

John, while you hang onto the creation myths of an ancient middle-eastern nomanic warrior tribe, through the sciences, God has opened many windows into His Creation. If we Lovers of God don't take advantage of these new windows being opened into His ways, we miss an opportunity to seek God.

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That is a good way to look at life.

 

[dlamberth]

It is absolute truth. It is only though faith that you can please God.

I believe that it is only thru love, compassion and in the treating others as you would want them to treat you as the only way to please God.

In these sorts of spiritual things, yes, the Bible is absolute Truth.

In how all of the various life forms evolved here on earth, how the earth and sun, planets and all of the cosmos grew, changed and came to be as they are now, that kind of knowledge comes from the realm of science, not the Bible.

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[Asimov]

What is senseless is the way you reject science when science shows the truthfullness of the Bible. YOu have all the freedom to do whatever you want to do. Just be prepared to endure the consequences.

Where do I reject science where it shows the truthfullness of the Bible?

Please specifically provide examples where you show that science has validated a claim in the Bible and then specifically show where I rejected that claim.

 

[SLP]

First of all, it is a known fact that God created the universe that we live in.

False.

 

[JohnR7]

False.

Your evidence for that is?

 

[JohnR7]

Archeology has proven God?

Come on Nathan it is hard enough to follow these posts when I have five people asking me questions with out you playing this sort of a silly game. You know I said that archeology has proven the Bible to be true. For example, the Bible says that the walls of Jericho came tumbling down, archeology has proven that to be true. The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed again science has shown that to be true.

Anyone can come up with lots and lots of examples where science has proven the Bible to be true. No one can come up with even one example of where science has falsified the Bible in anyway. There is no conflict between science and the Bible, because they are both seeking to know the truth.

 

[SLP]

Your evidence for that is?

I am not the one claiming it is a fact.

What is YOUR evidence?

 

[SLP]

You know I said that archeology has proven the Bible to be true. For example, the Bible says that the walls of Jericho came tumbling down, archeology has proven that to be true. The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed again science has shown that to be true.

You are making some incredibly illogical and nonsensical leaps here.

Just because a few historical aspects of the bible as history have been shown to be somewhat accurate is not a justification for declaring it "true".

If that were a logical position, we should conclude that Aphrodite really did get injured fighting in human form during the Trojan war because the city thoght to be Troy was dicovered!

Anyone can come up with lots and lots of examples where science has proven the Bible to be true. No one can come up with even one example of where science has falsified the Bible in anyway.

Pi does not equal 3.

You cannot cure leprosy by killing pigeons over running water.

The mustard seed is not the smallest seed.

Bats are not birds.

Grasshoppers do not walk on 4 legs.

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[JohnR7]

John, do you really expect the natural sciences to talk about God (for or against)?

Science talks about anything that is perdictable and anything where you can duplicate your results. For the most part God is based on faith, but faith is still predictable and it can be duplicated.

 

[caravelair]

You know I said that archeology has proven the Bible to be true. For example, the Bible says that the walls of Jericho came tumbling down, archeology has proven that to be true. The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed again science has shown that to be true.

so what? the movie "Titanic" has lots of historically true elements, but that doesn't mean that the story as a whole is true. in fact, it's not. i'm sure that people of the past witnessed the destruction you mentioned above and recorded it. that doesn't mean the entire bible is true. sure, they got some historical details right. i'm sure it wasn't hard for them to do that. it's the grand supernatural claims that i have a problem with, and those are the ones that we are not able to verify.

 

[JohnR7]

Just because a few historical aspects of the bible as history have been shown to be somewhat accurate is not a justification for declaring it "true".

Sure the scoffers try to say only a "few" things in the Bible have been proven to be true. But there is a lot more then just a "few" things. The amazing thing is that there is nothing in the Bible that has ever been proven NOT to be true.

It is a book written over 3500 years ago, so there are going to be things difficult for people to understand today. In fact most people have trouble understanding parts of the Bible, but that does not make it any less true. Does it make science any less true that there are things that science does not understand?

 

[JohnR7]

they got some historical details right. i'm sure it wasn't hard for them to do that. it's the grand supernatural claims that i have a problem with, and those are the ones that we are not able to verify.

So what "grand supernatural" claim do you have a problem with? The point is that as much as science is able to verify the Bible they have shown it to be true. There maybe some things that science falls short of being able to verify right now, but that could change at any time as new evidence comes along all the time.

The Hebrew nation never questioned God or the Bible and they still lived in rebellion against Him. So what difference does it make that they believed in God? Man has failed God in three ways. They rejected His leadership, His provision and His law.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

The amazing thing is that there is nothing in the Bible that has ever been proven NOT to be true.

all depends on what you mean by prove.
There was no global Noahic flood.
The world is not less than 4.5billion years old.
both of these statements are well evidenced by science and no data exists to the contrary.

The Romans did not tax the entire globe, they did not know of N. and S. America and certainly did not send tax agents nor decrees to the Mayans for tribute.

There is no genetic bottleneck for all human beings such that all people are descended either from Noah's family or from an Adam within the last 70K years.

 

[caravelair]

So what "grand supernatural" claim do you have a problem with?

the existence of god/heaven/hell/satan, the whole jesus as a saviour story. none of it makes a lick of sense if you ask me, and sounds just as made up as any other religion in history.

The point is that as much as science is able to verify the Bible they have shown it to be true.

that depends on your intepretation of the bible. for example, some people take genesis literally, and science certainly has shown that a literal interpretation of genesis is false.

if you look at the bible more broadly, and include all possible interpretations of it, then the bible would be unfalsifiable, so in this case, it would not be surprising or interesting at all that science does not conflict with it, because it is impossible for science to contradict something that is unfalsifiable.

 

[JohnR7]

John, while you hang onto the creation myths of an ancient middle-eastern nomanic warrior tribe, through the sciences, God has opened many windows into His Creation.

God has not changed. The way He deals with man in ancient times is still the way He deals with man now. There is a lesson for us today in what God did with the nations back in ancient times. Why did God destroy Sodom? Why did God call Isreal His chosen people? What does the God who created us want from us and how can we please Him today. Moden science is interesting, but for me ancient history is just as interesting if not more so.

 

[dlamberth]

The amazing thing is that there is nothing in the Bible that has ever been proven NOT to be true.

Yes there ARE things in the Bible that have been proven NOT to be true. Lets start with the 6 days of Creation as presented in the Bible. That's all been proven NOT to be true.

What's at issue here is not that the proof does not exist, because it very clearly does exist. It's in how YOU are dealing with the proof and because of that, where we see the glaring reality of the Bible's problems when it comes to how life evolved on this planet.

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[JohnR7]

the existence of god/heaven/hell/satan, the whole jesus as a saviour story. none of it makes a lick of sense if you ask me, and sounds just as made up as any other religion in history.

For me the bottom line is that it works. When I was in the hospital in a coma, my wife prayed, the church prayed and God healed me.

If you do not believe that God healed me, then I would be glad to hear your explaination as to how I got better and improved the way I did. Also, I would like to hear your explaination of why I had the experance I did of God healing me? Do you feel that it is a coincidence that I had this experance and came out of the coma at the exact same time?

some people take genesis literally, and science certainly has shown that a literal interpretation of genesis is false.

There are some interpretations of genesis that have been proven to be false. That is a part of the challange that we have today. Science can help us to have a better understanding of our Bible. For example, science has some pretty convincing evidence that there were people around before God put Adam and Eve in the Garden in Eden 6,000 years ago. We need to try and understand our Bible in light of what science has shown us or what science believes to be true.

 

[OdwinOddball]

Sure the scoffers try to say only a "few" things in the Bible have been proven to be true. But there is a lot more then just a "few" things. The amazing thing is that there is nothing in the Bible that has ever been proven NOT to be true.

You keep saying this. But you have yet, to ever, present any of this evidence you keep saying you have.

What is the point in anyone continuing to discuss this with you if you are never going to back up anything you say?

So, where is this evidence that supports the bible?

 

[JohnR7]

Yes there ARE things in the Bible that have been proven NOT to be true. Lets start with the 6 days of Creation as presented in the Bible. That's all been proven NOT to be true.

You have no evidence and you have no proof that this is not true. Were you here 6,000 years ago to give a witness and a testimony that it did not happen when the Bible says it happened.

Besides I am for the most part a dispensationist. I believe a day in the Bible represents 1,000 years. As far as I am concerned all of what we read in the Bible took place over a 6,000 period at the end of the last ice age.

Also, I am OEC and the days in the Bible could represent millions or even billions of years. No one has any problem with the 6 days of creation in the Bible. It is just a question of how they understand it.