The KJV's utterly false translation

ClementofA

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Mark 3:29

"Eternal damnation (αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος)"

"An utterly false rendering. Rightly as Rev., of an eternal sin. So Wyc., everlasting trespass. The A. V. has gone wrong in following Tyndale, who, in turn, followed the erroneous text of Erasmus, κρίσεως, judgment, wrongly rendered damnation."

Vincent's Word Studies

What's an "everlasting trespass"?
 

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Mark 3:29

"Eternal damnation (αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος)"

"An utterly false rendering. Rightly as Rev., of an eternal sin. So Wyc., everlasting trespass. The A. V. has gone wrong in following Tyndale, who, in turn, followed the erroneous text of Erasmus, κρίσεως, judgment, wrongly rendered damnation."

Vincent's Word Studies

What's an "everlasting trespass"?


What is says is an "everlasting decision" or "judgement", "trespass" doesn't convey the meaning well at all.
 
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JIMINZ

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Mark 3:29

"Eternal damnation (αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος)"

"An utterly false rendering. Rightly as Rev., of an eternal sin. So Wyc., everlasting trespass. The A. V. has gone wrong in following Tyndale, who, in turn, followed the erroneous text of Erasmus, κρίσεως, judgment, wrongly rendered damnation."

Vincent's Word Studies

What's an "everlasting trespass"?
.
Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

DAMNATION
G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against);
by extension a tribunal;
by implication justice (specifically divine law):
- accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

It's really no biggie, not difficult to understand.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

DAMNATION
G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against);
by extension a tribunal;
by implication justice (specifically divine law):
- accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

It's really no biggie, not difficult to understand.
Watering down what the Bible says by throwing doubt upon a translation is a product of liberal theology. It is implying that the Bible has mistakes in it in the way it is translated. "Lower criticism" is the way that traditional Reformed theologians used to more fully understand what the Bible is telling us. "Higher criticism" is what liberal existential theologians are using to say the Bible has mistakes in it, but we must try and find the Word of God that is contained in the Bible, and hold on to the religious truths it contains. But it results in nothing, because unless the Bible is absolutely without error in every respect, then we cannot have any basis for our salvation and we are still in our sins, without hope.
 
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Mark 3:29

"Eternal damnation (αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος)"

"An utterly false rendering. Rightly as Rev., of an eternal sin. So Wyc., everlasting trespass. The A. V. has gone wrong in following Tyndale, who, in turn, followed the erroneous text of Erasmus, κρίσεως, judgment, wrongly rendered damnation."

Vincent's Word Studies

What's an "everlasting trespass"?
The KJV is an English translation of the Textus Receptus. The textus receptus uses the words "αιωνιου κρισεως" and not "αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος" as you say. What you're quoting is from a different Greek text, that used by modern versions like the NASB.

So it's not an "utterly false rendering", but rather it's a translation from a different Greek manuscript.
 
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συνείδησις

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The Received Text has αιωνίου κρίσεως; the Critical Text has αιωνίου αμαρτηματος (sin with the -ma suffix). Take your pick. Very strange that they are so different.

I personally think that αιωνίου αμαρτηματος is the correct word. Aμαρτηματος basically means work of sin. So if this word is correct I think Jesus was saying that those whose hearts are so evil as to call evil, good, and good, evil (which is what the pharisees did by saying Jesus' merciful works were of the devil) are liable to an everlasting work of sin. In other words, how could they ever believe and be freed from the αμαρτηματος (work of sin, i.e., law of sin and death) with such hard, unbelieving hearts?
 
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dqhall

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Mark 3:29

"Eternal damnation (αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος)"

"An utterly false rendering. Rightly as Rev., of an eternal sin. So Wyc., everlasting trespass. The A. V. has gone wrong in following Tyndale, who, in turn, followed the erroneous text of Erasmus, κρίσεως, judgment, wrongly rendered damnation."

Vincent's Word Studies

What's an "everlasting trespass"?
My opinion is the unpardonable sin results in eternal death.
 
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συνείδησις

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Mark 3:29

"Eternal damnation (αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος)"

"An utterly false rendering. Rightly as Rev., of an eternal sin. So Wyc., everlasting trespass. The A. V. has gone wrong in following Tyndale, who, in turn, followed the erroneous text of Erasmus, κρίσεως, judgment, wrongly rendered damnation."

Vincent's Word Studies

What's an "everlasting trespass"?

It appears that κρίσεως comes from the Latin delicti (damnation). Erasmus apparently used the Vulgate for this verse rather than a Greek manuscript. So the error appears to have originated with the Vulgate translation that was then propagated into a Greek manuscript translated from the Latin.
 
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ClementofA

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From this url is the following quoted:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/don-preston-on-2-thes-1-9/13095/23

**** On “Eonian Sin” ****

The most serious problem left over, is Mark 3:29 which reads in most ancient Greek texts “eonian sin”. The evidence from textual copies (not only in Greek but other ancient translations and applications of GosMark) that “sin” was the original reading here is very strong, even though there is disagreement about the precise grammatic form of the word; and there is no disagreement at all about {aiôniou}. This would be the only time sin is called “eonian” in the New Testament.

An impressive number of other Greek texts, some early, as well as other languages (some early) feature “crisis” {kriseôs} here instead (with a couple of texts using another term for judgment from which we now derive “crime”, and a couple using both “crisis” and “sin”, and a couple using “kolasis” instead as in Matthew 25.) The textual evidence in itself is about equal either way, although either way (eternal sin or eternal crisis) the term would be unique in the New Testament; but the majority existence of an odd form of the term for sin {hamartêmatos}, with a few Greek texts and most translations from Greek witnessing to the more expected form {hamartias} instead, is hard to explain if “sin” was not the original reading.

If “punishment” or “crisis” (judgment) was the original reading, then certainly that would come uniquely from God, and so the term would be entirely neutral to the question of whether or not the sin (and thus the punishment) ever ends. Such variants themselves actually testify to the notion that “eonian” was understood to mean that the noun described by the adjective comes uniquely from God, which would be theologically shocking if “sin” was the noun! But fairness requires me, at this time, to acknowledge “sin” as, most likely, the original reading.

What does the phrase “eonian sin” necessarily imply, if so? By the evidence of surrounding context, the other Synoptic accounts of the saying, and the usage of the term elsewhere in both the OT and the NT, nothing fatal to universalism.

1.) The argument previously given, from story details, about Jesus’ intention in talking about the sin against the Holy Spirit, still stands on its own merits, over-against a hopeless interpretation of the phrase. This in itself might be considered decisive! – unless a case can be made for a hopeless meaning which does not involve charging God with having no intention or no capability of saving those who have been plundered by the Plunder-possessor (against Jesus’ own sarcastic retorts to the criticisms of the Pharisees). Which interpretation gathers the most with Christ, and which interpretations involve scattering instead? – and does gathering with Christ or scattering instead involve being for or against Christ?! Which interpretations involve bringing shame onto the Holy Spirit, even defying salvation “into the Holy Spirit” (as Mark puts it, as into the face of the Person of God Who convicts sinners of sin) and which does not? Any Christian should carefully consider the varieties of options, whether Calvinistic, Arminianistic, or universalistic.

2.) In Mark’s report, the grammar is very strange in any case. Jesus says whoever blasphemes against (or rather into) the Holy Spirit, is not having pardon into the eon (which is clear enough grammar, regardless of what “into the eon” may or may no mean), “but a liable-one is sin-effect of eonian.” In other words, in that last clause (which is a small independent sentence in itself) “a liable one” or “the liable” one (or the guilty-one, or the one obliged one, or the one held fast like the prisoners Christ just talked about rescuing from Satan) is the subject of the verb “is”, and “sin-effect” is the object of the verb, or more accurately the predicate nominative. {Hamartêmatos} isn’t the object of the preposition implied by {aiôniou} which is in the genitive form.

In other words, the grammar doesn’t read “X is guilty of-sin”, so doesn’t read “X is guilty of-eonian-sin” either. In English terms, the grammar is more like “the-guilty-one”, that which is under judgment, “is sin of-eonian”. If this doesn’t mean God, the Eonian One, is guilty of sin-effect (which would be ridiculous), it would mean eonian sin-effect itself, not the sinner, is what is bound for judgment!

No doubt this is why some Greek texts, and many translations into other languages from Greek, replace the term either with {hamartias} which is a genitive noun to fit with the “of-eonian” (thus matching the usual translation “of eonian sin”), or with {kriseôs} which is also a genitive noun to fit the prepositional phrase as “of-eonian-judgment”. But notice then that the one who is guilty, is the one who insists on eonian judgment, or who insists on an eonian sin-effect! (The guilty-one is of-eonian-judgment, or is of-eonian-sin-effect. The phrasing matches that for identifying someone who holds to a particular party, or who follows a person, or comes from a certain place. For example, St. Paul’s complaint of factions disputing because “I am of Apollos!” “I am of Paul!”)

Putting it another way, the actual strange grammar of the end of Mark 3:29 fits the idea that the ones being condemned of sin against the Holy Spirit are those who insist on some eonian effect of sin in a way that insults the reputation of the Holy Spirit before men, a way that involves rejecting (as the work of Satan not of God) Christ’s salvation of the man whose latter state was worse than his former, and a way that involves scattering instead of gathering with Christ. That way would not be Christian universalism, obviously!

Admittedly, the grammatic issues here are extremely difficult, and so perhaps open to other interpretations. (Possibly there is an underlying Aramaic grammatic issue here explaining the oddity in some other way, for example.) But the difficulties of the grammar do provide at least some evidence in favor of a more hopeful reading of the text, in conjunction with the various contextual details around the text.

Assuming, then, that these two points are not sufficient to carry the rebuttal against using “eonian sin” as testimony of a hopeless result, I will continue with some other observations about the situation, first by clarifying a point previously mentioned:

3.) As I indicated previously, the peculiar form of the term in GosMark, {hamartêmatos}, which agrees with Jesus’ previous extremely strong statement one verse prior about all sins and blasphemies being forgiven, indicates a result of the action of the sin with the {-ma} type of suffix. This explains why “eonian” can be used to describe the noun: the sin is not “eonian”, the results of the sin are “eonian”, and the results are (at least) judgmental punishment uniquely from God (thus explaining substitutions in many texts with “crisis”). On the theory that “eonian” in the NT refers to things which come uniquely from God, this term still fits (not referring to sin coming uniquely from God!) Whether the crisis or the punishment/kolasis continues never-endingly is a whole other question.

4.) On the other hand, at least once indisputably in the New Testament (at Romans 16:25), and often in the Greek Old Testament, the term “eonian” refers to something which has an end. Whether that applies in this example or not, is admittedly a question of contextual evidence; but this is why I have given the topical and thematic contextual argument first!

Continued at the url above.
 
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I personally think that αιωνίου αμαρτηματος is the correct word. Aμαρτηματος basically means work of sin. So if this word is correct I think Jesus was saying that those whose hearts are so evil as to call evil, good, and good, evil (which is what the pharisees did by saying Jesus' merciful works were of the devil) are liable to an everlasting work of sin. In other words, how could they ever believe and be freed from the αμαρτηματος (work of sin, i.e., law of sin and death) with such hard, unbelieving hearts?

.
The point is, they couldn't, that is why it is called the UNPARDONABLE SIN.
 
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A translation is -- guess what? -- a translation. The translators, regardless of when/where the work is done, must do their best to convert the source languages into the receptor language. No translation will ever be "perfect". In the case of the Bible, they must use whatever texts are available and render them into the English that is best understood by the target culture.

Personally, since I don't live in early 17th Century England, I don't use the King James version. I want a translation that is as accurate a translation as possible into my language: 21st Century American English. My preference is the NET, followed by the NRSV and the NIV.
 
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A translation is -- guess what? -- a translation. The translators, regardless of when/where the work is done, must do their best to convert the source languages into the receptor language. No translation will ever be "perfect". In the case of the Bible, they must use whatever texts are available and render them into the English that is best understood by the target culture.

Personally, since I don't live in early 17th Century England, I don't use the King James version. I want a translation that is as accurate a translation as possible into my language: 21st Century American English. My preference is the NET, followed by the NRSV and the NIV.
I am not familiar with the NET much or the NRSV but the NIV is a TERRIBLE translation. All modern translations have problems, but you would be much better going with the NASB than most others, even though it is translated from the problematic Nestle-Aland line.
 
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I am not familiar with the NET much or the NRSV but the NIV is a TERRIBLE translation. All modern translations have problems, but you would be much better going with the NASB than most others, even though it is translated from the problematic Nestle-Aland line.

"All modern translations have problems" is your opinion only. I and many others disagree with you. Why do you think the NIV is the best-selling Bible translation? What are your qualifications?
 
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" Why do you think the NIV is the best-selling Bible translation?

Because it's easy to read.

But the price that's paid for that kind of 'dumbing down' of the historic wording in older versions of the Bible is the acceptance of an ugly translation, even when it's accurate. It's something that approaches being a 'Dick and Jane' version of Holy Scripture.

There are worse versions, it's true, but the NIV is something that's best owned as a reference work and used only in case something comes up in one of the better translations that confuses the reader.
 
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Because it's easy to read.

But the price that's paid for that kind of 'dumbing down' of the historic wording in older versions of the Bible is the acceptance of an ugly translation, even when it's accurate. It's something that approaches being a 'Dick and Jane' version of Holy Scripture.

There are worse versions, it's true, but the NIV is something that's best owned as a reference work and used only in case something comes up in one of the better translations that confuses the reader.

So you think that the more difficult something a translation is to read the better it is? Interesting!

Also "the acceptance of an ugly translation, even when it's accurate" shows where you're coming from. Accuracy should be the goal of any translation, not how stilted and incomprehensible the receptor language is.

The King James translation is more than 400 years old, based on a limited set of source documents and written in a dead language, one that is no longer in use anywhere outside of conservative congregations.

There is no legitimate reason to use an out-of-date translation, even if it sounds pompous.

Here are two examples of Luke 14:7-11...

"When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable: “When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” NIV

7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.

8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;

9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.

10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.

13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:

14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." KJV

The languages of the source documents -- Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek -- are plain languages. They are not stilted or incomprehensible, as is the KJV to modern readers. That is reason enough to read the Bible in one's native language, not in one long since dead.
 
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"All modern translations have problems" is your opinion only. I and many others disagree with you. Why do you think the NIV is the best-selling Bible translation? What are your qualifications?
I blame the poor education most people give themselves that makes them incapable of understanding better bible translations. Further, my qualifications are that I have studied the history of bible translation and have seen that the NIV and most modern versions not only use suspect Greek manuscripts but don't even render a correct translation of those manuscripts, leaving out things clearly in the original Greek(and Hebrew in the OT), and putting things in that clearly AREN'T in the original languages. If you investigate, will realize this. Do some googling and find out the truth. As far as qualifications go, the whole "we're the priesthood so we get to decide the truth for everybody" thing ended with the Protestant Reformation--and rightly so. Protestants don't have to have some seminary's approval in order to be considered capable of making well-informed choices or understanding the truth, and seminaries have been teaching many things that aren't true, unfortunately.
 
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I blame the poor education most people give themselves that makes them incapable of understanding better bible translations. Further, my qualifications are that I have studied the history of bible translation and have seen that the NIV and most modern versions not only use suspect Greek manuscripts but don't even render a correct translation of those manuscripts, leaving out things clearly in the original Greek(and Hebrew in the OT), and putting things in that clearly AREN'T in the original languages. If you investigate, will realize this. Do some googling and find out the truth. As far as qualifications go, the whole "we're the priesthood so we get to decide the truth for everybody" thing ended with the Protestant Reformation--and rightly so. Protestants don't have to have some seminary's approval in order to be considered capable of making well-informed choices or understanding the truth, and seminaries have been teaching many things that aren't true, unfortunately.

So, what are your qualifications? I spent many years in academia, enough to realize that those who consider themselves correct can be in serious error.

Do you think that the plethora of documents available from ancient times, compared to what the KJV translators had available to them, counts for nothing? The modern translations are based on better sources and a greater understanding of the Biblical languages and cultures.

You wrote "don't even render a correct translation of those manuscripts, leaving out things clearly in the original Greek(and Hebrew in the OT), and putting things in that clearly AREN'T in the original languages." If you examine your beloved KJV, there are quite a few additions and modifications, rendered in italics, as well as some clearly added sections such as the "long ending" of Mark and Romans 8:1

KJV, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

NIV, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"

"who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." is an addition by a zealous scribe but is not in the best source texts.

Also, you make the serious error of stating that those of us who dislike the KJV are somehow deficient in our ability to understand Scripture.

If the KJV makes you feel "holier than thou" and "religious" fine, but it is not a good translation. It's archaic, confusing, and sometimes inaccurate.
 
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