The KJVO myth...

solid_core

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Ok so like I said, pick one link that I have NOT adressed, pick your favorite. Then when that is done we can move to #2. my sources are original sources for one. Meaning this person actually looked at the manuscripts in question. So other than Wallace I don't think anyone you quoted actually looked at them. But be it as it may, I said I would look at any blog or article. So pick your favorite and give it to me.
I do not know why are you so "link obsessed". All information I said in the post are in links. You can study them if you wish. Arguments will not change, no matter if you look at the links or not.

I do not have any "favorite".

Most informative is this one:
The Majority Text and the Original Text: Are They Identical? | Bible.org
 
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createdtoworship

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I do not know why are you so "link obsessed". All information I said in the post are in links. You can study them if you wish. Arguments will not change, no matter if you look at the links or not.

I do not have any "favorite".

Most informative is this one:
The Majority Text and the Original Text: Are They Identical? | Bible.org

I like daniel wallace and will read his stuff, but realize he was the SENIOR editor of the NET bible. So he may have bias in this study. For example imagine putting in five to ten years of your life on a project, only to write an article supporting someone elses work. People tend to support the work they have invested. I am not saying that what he says is wrong. But the NET bible is not a great translation. It's not even a literal translation. I would much rather support ESV or NASB over the NET bible. But be it as it may I will read it and update this post...

First He takes exception with Zane hodges majority text translation, I agree with wallace, I don't like Zane hodges works, they are one of many, but I tend to use literal word for word translations.

the second thing he takes exception with is that the majority text is the original, and I have never ran across a majority text advocate who thinks this way. That is like the KJVers believing the KJV is God's written word. No it's an english translation of a greek translation copy of an original.

thirdly he takes exception that in the first few centuries coptic copies of the gospel did not support byzantine manuscripts. But that is not to say the majority if non coptic copies didn't support it. Coptic copies are by and large inferior because there was no official church in Egypt. Besides I didn't see any referenced to direct sources on this, he quoted a theological journal from another seminary.

Then He takes exception that the majority of manuscripts are statistically better and says " But in historical investigation, statistical probability is almost always worthless." Then quotes miracles as the reason why statistical analysis is bunk. However attacking directly scientific analysis to make a point is just evidence that He is reaching in his conclusions.

The next section is quite well written and has some pictures, however I have provided conflicting information on this, harry sturz has testimony of an early witness of the byzantine manuscripts, as I have posted. Harry sturz is a primary source for this type of study, while Wallace has had to cite articles regarding his works.

"But that is not what is found. Among extant Greek manuscripts, what is today the majority text did not become a majority until the ninth century. In fact, as far as the extant witnesses reveal, the majority text did not exist in the first four centuries. Not only this, but for the letters of Paul, not even one majority text manuscript exists from before the ninth century. To embrace the majority text for the Pauline Epistles, then, requires an 800-year leap of faith."

again I have provided primary sources for this, I didn't see any citations for this paragraph. I was looking for a foot note, but there was not any, which shows that it is his opinion.

here is an interesting article for byzantine support from the founding fathers:
Translations and the Greek Text

My lunch is over and I won't have time on a computer till later, I will keep the link upon and keep going if you want.
 
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Strong in Him

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Yes the image was wrong, and I corrected it so that is proof that I am open minded.

No, it shows that you were simply wrong to say in the first place that it was proof.

But, like I said, I'm unsubscribing.
I've said all I wanted to say.
 
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createdtoworship

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No, it shows that you were simply wrong to say in the first place that it was proof.

But, like I said, I'm unsubscribing.
I've said all I wanted to say.
@Strong in Him
Sorry to point out a fallacy on your last post, however this is poisoning the well. Say a person is wrong 1 on ten, or even 7 in ten. That does not make them wrong, it just means they were mistaken on an issue or another issue. Anyway, take it easy. Don't take this stuff to personal. I like you as a person and I hope that this has encouraged your faith, that we have in fact a solidly traced Bible manuscript back to the early church.
 
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createdtoworship

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createdtoworship

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I do not know why are you so "link obsessed". All information I said in the post are in links. You can study them if you wish. Arguments will not change, no matter if you look at the links or not.

I do not have any "favorite".

Most informative is this one:
The Majority Text and the Original Text: Are They Identical? | Bible.org
I have refuted.the first four points Wallace made, agreeing with one. However I though I would post more support of the church fathers quoting byzantine manuscripts (quoting textus receptus and majority text (like manuscripts)). Here is the proof of byzantine quotes from church fathers:

"Let us give a proof from early Church Fathers showing the Byzantine text-type is very old. The Byzantine text of Matthew 27:34 uses the Greek term oxo, translated vinegar: "They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink." The Alexandrian text uses the term oinon translated wine, in this passage. The parallel passage found in Mark 15:23 uses oivnon and the near v. 36 passage uses o[xoV ; Luke uses oxoV in the near 23:36 passage; and John uses oxouV in the near 19:29 passage. Because of these uses some critics claim the Church Father quotations using oxouV (vinegar) may not come from Matthew but one of the other Gospels. But as Pickering and Robinson have pointed out, the term gall makes it possible to identify the Church Fathers' quotations as coming from Matthew 27:34 since gall is used in only one other New Testament Scripture (Acts 8:23).[113] Therefore we can have confidence these Church Father quotations come from Matthew, even though the Fathers made no statement to this affect. Following is a list of Church Fathers who use vinegar and gall in these same "quotation."

Barnabas, Barnabas, 100 a.d.: "had given him to drink vinegar and gall" ( 7:5).

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 130-202: "He should have vinegar and gall given Him to drink" (Book IV:XXXIII:12; cf. XXXV:3).

Revelation of Esdras: "Vinegar and gall did they give me to drink."

Apostolic Constitutions, late 200s: "they gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall" (V:3:14).

Tertullian, Reply to Marcion, d. 220: "and gall is mixed with vinegar" (Appendix, V:232).

Gospel of Nicodemus, 4th century: "and gave him also to drink gall with vinegar" (Part II, 4).

Gregory of Nyssa, d. 394: "coln tekai oxei dixbrox" (Orat. X:989:6).

Gregory Nazianzus, d. 396, "Taste gall for the taste's sake; drink vinegar" (Oratio XXXVIII:18).

The above shows the Byzantine text of the Gospel of Matthew existed very early, even in the first century."

Above from link on previous post.
 
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createdtoworship

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createdtoworship

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Hey @David Kent Here a variants of the majority text projects out, some majority texts are not based on KJV others are, so this is just a small list of options for Kids and easier reading, if KJV is too hard to read for example. I have not found a good one for myself, but for kids, a paraphrase is a good start. I would not call them all translations though. I think a translation should be word for word, if they are changing syntax into contemporary language then it should be called a paraphrase. You can count the number of words in a translation and see if they match the number of words in greek and hebrew to do a quick check of how many word fillers were added. KJV is so far the closest to the greek number I could find. But I have not checked NASB or ESV. View attachment 269994
above image from :
Modern English Bible translations - Wikipedia
 
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createdtoworship

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Anyway while I am waiting for comments on my refutations of rebuttal links regarding fraud allegations of the sinaiticus I thought I would provide a few source images:
sinaiticus forgery pages part 2.png


sinaiticus pages darker than other pages.png


I have refuted any posts given regarding these allegations so far. I am waiting for more replies so we can discuss this further. I don't see how one page is 25% darker than the page right after it, this shows uneven aging, and/or pages of different ages. Which is consistent with a forgery not a legitimate document of antiquity. These and dozens other reasons are why I believe the sinaiticus is a forgery and that the textus receptus and majority text (while imperfect), are a better source of scriptures than the sinaiticus and vaticanus (nestle aland, westcott hort)
 

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solid_core

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Anyway while I am waiting for comments on my refutations of rebuttal links regarding fraud allegations of the sinaiticus I thought I would provide a few source images:View attachment 270016

View attachment 270018

I have refuted any posts given regarding these allegations so far. I am waiting for more replies so we can discuss this further. I don't see how one page is 25% darker than the page right after it, this shows uneven aging, and/or pages of different ages. Which is consistent with a forgery not a legitimate document of antiquity. These and dozens other reasons are why I believe the sinaiticus is a forgery and that the textus receptus and majority text (while imperfect), are a better source of scriptures than the sinaiticus and vaticanus (nestle aland, westcott hort)
There is no point in quoting creationist Bill Cooper again and again, when he has already been refuted by actual textual specialists,.

Determining color from images is a bad idea.

Every page of the manuscript was photographed from various angles, on various backgrounds and with different kinds of light and then the best photography for digital reading of the text was published online.
Thats why one page can seem to be in a different color than the other one. They choosed best readibility, not the most natural color.

Thats what people working on the sinaiticus digitalization in Brittish Museum said:
Codex Sinaiticus - Digital photography
 
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solid_core

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First He takes exception with Zane hodges majority text translation, I agree with wallace, I don't like Zane hodges works, they are one of many, but I tend to use literal word for word translations.
Ok, you dont like it.

the second thing he takes exception with is that the majority text is the original, and I have never ran across a majority text advocate who thinks this way. That is like the KJVers believing the KJV is God's written word. No it's an english translation of a greek translation copy of an original.
So you agree that the majority text is not the original text but has later additions and changes?

thirdly he takes exception that in the first few centuries coptic copies of the gospel did not support byzantine manuscripts. But that is not to say the majority if non coptic copies didn't support it.
What early centuries "non-coptic" copies suporting the Byzantine text do you have in mind?

Coptic copies are by and large inferior because there was no official church in Egypt.
This is an argument you simply invented. Prove that it matters in any way.
Also, define the term "official church" and prove that the byzantine text was used in some "official church" in first centuries.

Then He takes exception that the majority of manuscripts are statistically better and says " But in historical investigation, statistical probability is almost always worthless." Then quotes miracles as the reason why statistical analysis is bunk. However attacking directly scientific analysis to make a point is just evidence that He is reaching in his conclusions.
I do not understand what you want to say.

Harry sturz is a primary source for this type of study
Thats your opinion. Right now, people working on Edition Critica Maior are the "primary source" for all scholarship around Greek New Testament text. Is he in the team?
 
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solid_core

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"Let us give a proof from early Church Fathers showing the Byzantine text-type is very old. The Byzantine text of Matthew 27:34 uses the Greek term oxo, translated vinegar: "They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink." The Alexandrian text uses the term oinon translated wine, in this passage. The parallel passage found in Mark 15:23 uses oivnon and the near v. 36 passage uses o[xoV ; Luke uses oxoV in the near 23:36 passage; and John uses oxouV in the near 19:29 passage. Because of these uses some critics claim the Church Father quotations using oxouV (vinegar) may not come from Matthew but one of the other Gospels. But as Pickering and Robinson have pointed out, the term gall makes it possible to identify the Church Fathers' quotations as coming from Matthew 27:34 since gall is used in only one other New Testament Scripture (Acts 8:23).[113] Therefore we can have confidence these Church Father quotations come from Matthew, even though the Fathers made no statement to this affect. Following is a list of Church Fathers who use vinegar and gall in these same "quotation."

Barnabas, Barnabas, 100 a.d.: "had given him to drink vinegar and gall" ( 7:5).

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 130-202: "He should have vinegar and gall given Him to drink" (Book IV:XXXIII:12; cf. XXXV:3).

Revelation of Esdras: "Vinegar and gall did they give me to drink."

Apostolic Constitutions, late 200s: "they gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall" (V:3:14).

Tertullian, Reply to Marcion, d. 220: "and gall is mixed with vinegar" (Appendix, V:232).

Gospel of Nicodemus, 4th century: "and gave him also to drink gall with vinegar" (Part II, 4).

Gregory of Nyssa, d. 394: "coln tekai oxei dixbrox" (Orat. X:989:6).

Gregory Nazianzus, d. 396, "Taste gall for the taste's sake; drink vinegar" (Oratio XXXVIII:18).

The above shows the Byzantine text of the Gospel of Matthew existed very early, even in the first century."

Above from link on previous post.

If "sinaiticus is the attempt of the catholic church to undermine protestant bibles" as your favourite creationist conspiracy theorist sais, why did they not change something more substantial to protestantism and changed "vinegar" to "vine" instead?

And as I already said, its not a proof that you can find one word same in some Church fathers.
You will have to do statistical work and have complete records of their quotations and then find out if they quote byzantine text over alexandrian text:
a) in all cases
b) in most cases
c) equally
d) less

Editio Critica Maior will help with that.
 
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createdtoworship

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There is no point in quoting creationist Bill Cooper again and again, when he has already been refuted by actual textual specialists,.
well thank you for attempting to refute the solid evidence, that is why I like online pictures as they are easily reproduced and collected. I did my own but reversed the order of the pictures so you can tell. Same exact thing, it is because he used pictures from the sinaiticus homepage. So it was the same light with all the pages as my quote below states.


Every page of the manuscript was photographed from various angles, on various backgrounds and with different kinds of light and then the best photography for digital reading of the text was published online.
Thats why one page can seem to be in a different color than the other one. They choosed best readibility, not the most natural color.

Thats what people working on the sinaiticus digitalization in Brittish Museum said:
Codex Sinaiticus - Digital photography

POST 1 of 2....
Well I guess you missed this very next statement on the website:

"the natural appearance of the parchment and ink had to be faithfully reproduced, to allow the appreciation of the physical traits of Codex Sinaiticus."

Codex Sinaiticus - Digital photography


Also take note on the website, you can see a rainbow color spectrum at the bottom of each page, this is to show that the color is true and to compare the contrast of the page to real color hues. There is no way they would sacrifice color of text for readability when they know that color depicts age.

Further more the website goes on to say:

"Different angles and levels of intensity were tested for the lighting, as the same set-up had to be used for every page."


codex sinaiticus page 2.png


you can easily see how one page of the manuscript is 25% darker than the other, indicating a different age.

Here is another clip from the book on this:

"
Meanwhile, the forgers at Sinai had made all the mistakes that forgers commonly make. Their alterations were made cosmetically, for appearance’s sake, and so are easy to detect. In this, we are indebted to one Arthur Lucas, author of a most valuable work called Forensic Chemistry. Lucas, in the early part of the 20th century, was a legal expert in forensic analysis, and his book is dedicated to showing how fraud and forgery can be detected chemically. He does not even touch upon Codex Sinaiticus, but what he has to say on detecting documentary fraud is invaluable to our enquiry. Though he writes here of the effects of true age on paper, it is equally applicable to its effects on parchment (more so, in fact), and it makes interesting reading, very interesting reading indeed:

“Occasionally documents are discoloured intentionally in order to give them a fictitious appearance of age.... Discoloration due to age is largely a process of oxidation brought about by natural means and it takes place in proportion to the extent to which the paper has been exposed to the air and light, and hence the outsides and edges of old documents, which are the most exposed, become the most discoloured, the discoloration progressively diminishing towards the less exposed parts.”3

We noted in the last chapter the pristine condition of the Leipzig leaves, how uniformly white they were even to the outer margins of the page – “white” according to Uspensky, and “snow white” according to Dobschutz and M’Clymont who’d also seen the leaves. And although they are certainly not snow-white, but have been chemically discoloured, the leaves of the British Library segment are nevertheless uniform in their discolouration, just as the Leipzig leaves are uniform and even in their pristine state. In other words, there is little or no sign at all of the strong-to-diminishing oxidisation that would certainly have discoloured the leaves had they been of any real age. It is something that the forger can do nothing about. Pages cannot be oxidised by any rapid or artificial process, but can only become oxidised over long periods of time. After some 1700 years, the pages of Sinaiticus should have discoloured horribly, especially around the edges and outer margins, even to the point of obliterating much of the writing and making the parchment cracked and brittle. Yet the pages of Sinaiticus are all amazingly supple and show little or no sign of oxidisation.

Their freshness, their suppleness, and their unoxidised condition was something that surprised the British Library’s own specialists, as we noted in the previous chapter, though they could offer us no account of how their condition was even possible. But back to Lucas:



“Other natural causes for the discoloration of documents are exposure to dust and dirt and occasionally staining by fruit juice, grease and the excreta of rats, mice and insects. In the latter case the outsides and edges of the documents generally suffer the most. Where a document has been intentionally discoloured with dust, dirt or mud, this is evident as a rule by the discoloration showing definite streaks or lines when carefully examined, the dirt generally having been rubbed on either with a cloth or with the hand.”4



So, natural discolouration has several causes: oxidisation, insect and animal excreta, grease, liquid splashes and spillages (e.g. condensation from generations of readers’ breath, saliva, and even sweat dripping onto the page as they read, as well as moisture and grease from their fingers as they ran them over the page). And then there is the accumulation of dust and dirt which will adhere strongly to the surface of the document if left undisturbed over the centuries. These are all effects that the forger has to duplicate if he is to carry off a convincing appearance of age-old wear and tear. But with parchment as opposed to paper, there are added difficulties.

Parchment is animal skin, and animal skin relies for its strength and suppleness on the presence of the protein collagen. As the collagen within deteriorates over hundreds of years, so the parchment loses its integrity, its suppleness and its strength. It shrinks, curls, cracks and grows brittle, which is again something that lies beyond the power of the forger to emulate. His overriding problem is that none of these processes can be carried out quickly. He would need hundreds of years which he does not have in order to simulate them enough to pass a forensic and microscopic examination. So all he has left are a few ways in which to give a superficial appearance of age, and Lucas tells us how this is commonly achieved:



“Artificial discoloration made to simulate age is produced by means of a coloured solution. The author has never been able definitely to establish the nature of any solution employed, but in the East coffee is very probable, while in the West tea might be used. A water extract of tobacco or a dilute solution of potassium permanganate would also serve the same purpose. The use of a coloured solution is generally indicated by the characteristic shape of the edges of the discoloured areas, or the way in which the liquid has run may be plainly visible, and a thin dark line sometimes occurs where there were any very marked creases on the paper at the time it was treated. Occasionally too portions of the paper, often very small, may be found which have altogether escaped the action of the solution.”

lastly to compare the above with a real fourth century manuscript I will also post an image to this file:

View attachment 270039
 
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createdtoworship

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here is the image that did not post, see below full page of sinaiticus allegedly 4th century and compare the integrity of every known 4th century manuscript we have "other than" the sinaiticus, and compare quality:

these are real manuscripts we have: take not of integrity as well as color.

4th century manuscripts.png


Below: now take note of how uniform the pages are, they are fully formed, do not show a thousands of years of wear and tear, and the color is too white to be fourth century.

codex sinaiticus page 2.png


also notice the color, how a thousand year old document is dark in color, compared to the page on the right, which is bright white, we don't have another case of a 4th century document being this white, and furthermore, this white in relation to a dark page right next to it, makes it highly suspicious.
 

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I like daniel wallace and will read his stuff, but realize he was the SENIOR editor of the NET bible. So he may have bias in this study. For example imagine putting in five to ten years of your life on a project, only to write an article supporting someone elses work. People tend to support the work they have invested. I am not saying that what he says is wrong. But the NET bible is not a great translation. It's not even a literal translation. I would much rather support ESV or NASB over the NET bible. But be it as it may I will read it and update this post...

First He takes exception with Zane hodges majority text translation, I agree with wallace, I don't like Zane hodges works, they are one of many, but I tend to use literal word for word translations.

the second thing he takes exception with is that the majority text is the original, and I have never ran across a majority text advocate who thinks this way. That is like the KJVers believing the KJV is God's written word. No it's an english translation of a greek translation copy of an original.

thirdly he takes exception that in the first few centuries coptic copies of the gospel did not support byzantine manuscripts. But that is not to say the majority if non coptic copies didn't support it. Coptic copies are by and large inferior because there was no official church in Egypt. Besides I didn't see any referenced to direct sources on this, he quoted a theological journal from another seminary.

Then He takes exception that the majority of manuscripts are statistically better and says " But in historical investigation, statistical probability is almost always worthless." Then quotes miracles as the reason why statistical analysis is bunk. However attacking directly scientific analysis to make a point is just evidence that He is reaching in his conclusions.

The next section is quite well written and has some pictures, however I have provided conflicting information on this, harry sturz has testimony of an early witness of the byzantine manuscripts, as I have posted. Harry sturz is a primary source for this type of study, while Wallace has had to cite articles regarding his works.

"But that is not what is found. Among extant Greek manuscripts, what is today the majority text did not become a majority until the ninth century. In fact, as far as the extant witnesses reveal, the majority text did not exist in the first four centuries. Not only this, but for the letters of Paul, not even one majority text manuscript exists from before the ninth century. To embrace the majority text for the Pauline Epistles, then, requires an 800-year leap of faith."

again I have provided primary sources for this, I didn't see any citations for this paragraph. I was looking for a foot note, but there was not any, which shows that it is his opinion.

here is an interesting article for byzantine support from the founding fathers:
Translations and the Greek Text

My lunch is over and I won't have time on a computer till later, I will keep the link upon and keep going if you want.
@solid_core Please give me your thoughts on this rebuttal of your link, either admit the link is wrong, as I have shown, or give your comments supporting it. If not we must toss that link as unfounded. And then at that point I will ask for your second most favorite link disproving the sinaiticus fraud allegation and we then again can look into that as well. I am not only providing evidence but systematically dismantling all rebuttals of the allegations, one by one. For those reading.
 
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David Kent

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I think a translation should be word for word

I don't think that translations can be made word for word. In a close European language like French, you cannot translated literally word for word. I use a French recipe site, Marmiton.org and get google to translte the recipes and sometimes they come out as nonsense. I have to revert to the French to understand.
 
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createdtoworship

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I don't think that translations can be made word for word. In a close European language like French, you cannot translated literally word for word. I use a French recipe site, Marmiton.org and get google to translte the recipes and sometimes they come out as nonsense. I have to revert to the French to understand.
you are correct, but that does not mean we shouldn't try. In other words it does not mean sacrificing accuracy of the text, for other things. By the way because people are content with majority text translations that is why more translations are not translated into french for example. I don't know if you can find the living Bible in french, probably not. But you could find many based on modern translations. And that is sad. It's a result of the sad state of the church, that they don't do their homework with stuff.
 
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Remember, GOD created all languages & dialects. His word originally appears in old Hebrew, Aramaic, & Koine Greek because those were the languages of His chosen penmen. However, He has caused His word to be translated into over 2400 tongues so far.

But I believe we can dismiss the KJVO myth as being false, as it has no Scriptural support whatsoever, & no KJVO can offer any argument against that fact.
 
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Remember, GOD created all languages & dialects. His word originally appears in old Hebrew, Aramaic, & Koine Greek because those were the languages of His chosen penmen. However, He has caused His word to be translated into over 2400 tongues so far.

But I believe we can dismiss the KJVO myth as being false, as it has no Scriptural support whatsoever, & no KJVO can offer any argument against that fact.
But the KJV does have over 200 hundred more verses, and comes from a superior manuscript.
 
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