The kingdom vs america

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Whatever. This is a Christian forum. Everything is measured by Christian doctrine. Are you mistakenly in the wrong forum? Men destroys himself by rejecting truth. We have a choice Truth or Lie. I choose truth!

Did you forget what you posted** Christianity is ?
That was in error, which is why I replied to that post. Quoted below.

LOVE THE TRUTH! Whoever seeks the truth, and keeps seeking, the truth sets them free. This is God's Promise, of His Word, and cannot change, ever.

**

Christianity is the weapon used against the world.

 

[One Of The Elect]

Did you forget what you posted** Christianity is ?
That was in error, which is why I replied to that post. Quoted below.

LOVE THE TRUTH! Whoever seeks the truth, and keeps seeking, the truth sets them free. This is God's Promise, of His Word, and cannot change, ever.

**

I did not forget anything at all. Christianity is at war against the world and the world against it. My weapons and that of all Christians -is THE WORD OF GOD. Christianity 101. Not sure what you are , but I know I am Christian. Not sure what you think war is in the spiritual sense of Christianity, but be certain you and I are battling now. This goes on globally everyday- to many different degrees.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I did not forget anything at all. Christianity is at war against the world and the world against it. My weapons and that of all Christians -is THE WORD OF GOD. Christianity 101. Not sure what you are , but I know I am Christian. Not sure what you think war is in the spiritual sense of Christianity, but be certain you and I are battling now. This goes on globally everyday- to many different degrees.

Now what you posted here is basically true, yes.

None of this makes the purpose and motive of Christians a weapon against the world, nor against any man's soul.

We shall overcome as it is written by the word of our testimony and by the blood of the lamb who was shed for our sins.

YHWH even says do not take vengeance yourself, no. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.
Christians are supposed to trust, and keep trusting, and rely on HIM, not on ourselves.

Our warfare is not against flesh and blood, but spiritual.

Christianity is not a weapon God gave us to hurt or to kill anyone.

The weapons of our warfare are listed in Scripture.

 

[One Of The Elect]

Now what you posted here is basically true, yes.

None of this makes the purpose and motive of Christians a weapon against the world, nor against any man's soul.

We shall overcome as it is written by the word of our testimony and by the blood of the lamb who was shed for our sins.

YHWH even says do not take vengeance yourself, no. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.
Christians are supposed to trust, and keep trusting, and rely on HIM, not on ourselves.

Our warfare is not against flesh and blood, but spiritual.

Christianity is not a weapon God gave us to hurt or to kill anyone.

The weapons of our warfare are listed in Scripture.

It is not vengeance to speak the truth. Vengeance is when you physically attack or swear at, or curse someone. That is what separates Christians from carnal men. And is also why Christians should reject things like Islam and other false doctrines which promote war with ( PHYSICAL WEAPONS). Christianity is the fullness of the covenant and shines light on the old.( If you are not truly Christian I am sure this will lead to further discussion about the old covenant - that is for another discussion.)

But as it is -we should not physically do anything in retaliation to violence. That is why Christ ordered St. Peter to put away his sword when the soldiers came for Christ. This- St Peter did before he was fully born again in spirit. St. Peter did not fight with the sword once he fully became the Rock as Christ said he would be. St Peter was crucified upside down at the end of his ministry.

And Christ says," If a man strikes you on the cheek turn to him the other. Again it is not vengeance to speak truth.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is not vengeance to speak the truth. Vengeance is when you physically attack or swear at, or curse someone. That is what separates Christians from carnal men.
Christianity is the fullness of the covenant.........
And Christ says," If a man strikes you on the cheek turn to him the other. Again it is not vengeance to speak truth.

But the Jews wouldn't accept the truth and paid the ultimated recompense in AD70 with the destruction of the OC Temple and City.
Look at Luke 21:23 and Revelation 13:10

Eze 25:17
I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath.
Then they will know that I am YHWH, when I take vengeance on them.' ”

Luke 21:
23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
24 And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations. [Reve 13:10]
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.[Reve 11:2]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Josephus describes the condition of Jerusulem, before, during and after the destruction, and it was indeed a "HOLOCAUST"

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal;[Luke 21:23]
and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it.

Reve 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints[those of the faith of Jesus[NC], not of Moses[OC/Law].
[Luke 21:24]


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem was the feast of the Passover....

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND .......
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND..........
.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is starting to sound better .... hopefully it was just semantics or something like that....

whenever "Christiains" overthrew a people by force, that was not Jesus Way, not Christianity His Way, but christianity without Christ the world's way.

When souls were /are/ saved by the truth, yes their old way of life is destroyed (willingly and joyously for them and for all believers everywhere and even for all the angels in heaven !!!!!!!!!!) ,

and they will rejoice and walk in the light and in newness of life as new creations - the old has passed away (for them), behold all starts becoming or is new for them !

They/ we/ are dead to the world, and the world is dead to us.

The Sword, is the Word of YHWH. The battle is in spiritual, not physical realm.

Somehow, trying to think of true Christianity as a "weapon" against the world doesn't fit well with Scripture,
though the other things you posted do. So again, it might have just been semantic differences.

Others, not semantic, think Christians should take up weapons of the flesh and fight with those.... that is directly NOT what Jesus says in Scripture. That is the opposite of what Jesus says in fact.

That's why I posted replies to you as I did......

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But the Jews wouldn't accept the truth and paid the ultimated recompense in AD70 with the destruction of the OC Temple and City.

footnote
to double-check/ verify later

Some of the Jews, the very first of the assemblies of ekklesia born again by the will of the Father from heaven, set apart by Him, followers of Jesus/His disciples,
did accept the truth,
and they knew it,
and they were thus warned about the destruction BEFORE it happened,
and they FLED THE CITY
and were not destroyed with the city,
because they had believed and trusted YHWH and relied on JESUS for their salvation.

 

[One Of The Elect]

That is starting to sound better .... hopefully it was just semantics or something like that....

whenever "Christiains" overthrew a people by force, that was not Jesus Way, not Christianity His Way, but christianity without Christ the world's way.

When souls were /are/ saved by the truth, yes their old way of life is destroyed (willingly and joyously for them and for all believers everywhere and even for all the angels in heaven !!!!!!!!!!) ,

and they will rejoice and walk in the light and in newness of life as new creations - the old has passed away (for them), behold all starts becoming or is new for them !

They/ we/ are dead to the world, and the world is dead to us.

The Sword, is the Word of YHWH. The battle is in spiritual, not physical realm.

Somehow, trying to think of true Christianity as a "weapon" against the world doesn't fit well with Scripture,
though the other things you posted do. So again, it might have just been semantic differences.

Others, not semantic, think Christians should take up weapons of the flesh and fight with those.... that is directly NOT what Jesus says in Scripture. That is the opposite of what Jesus says in fact.

That's why I posted replies to you as I did......

Ok! I thought it was clear what I said. God Bless!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

footnote
to double-check/ verify later

Some of the Jews, the very first of the assemblies of ekklesia born again by the will of the Father from heaven, set apart by Him, followers of Jesus/His disciples,
did accept the truth,
and they knew it,
and they were thus warned about the destruction BEFORE it happened,
and they FLED THE CITY
and were not destroyed with the city,
because they had believed and trusted YHWH and relied on JESUS for their salvation.

I am sure they also remembered this:
[If only the Jews of today would read Revelation, sigh]

Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tumults/akatastasiaV <181> no may be being dismayed,
for is binding these to be becoming, but not immediately the end

This is what was happening around Judea and Jerusalem before the Roman army arrived.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered.
The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts.
Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength.
At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance...........

Curiously, the denarius is shown in revelation

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

He said the siege ended after about 5 months, which is also shown in Revelation and was the amount of time the flood of Noah covered the earth.
Isn't our GOD AWESOME!?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding..........

Reve 9:5
And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented 5 months months.
And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion, whenever it should be striking a man;

Gen 7:24
And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

 

[SolomonVII]

Paul wasnt filled with hate when he gave up his homeland. Neither am i. Whats your point exactly?

Two points.
First point, Paul claimed his Roman citizenship to the end. It is incorrect to say that he gave up his homeland.
And that an anti-American diatribe is not exactly brimming with love.

 

[W2L]

Two points.
First point, Paul claimed his Roman citizenship to the end. It is incorrect to say that he gave up his homeland.
And that an anti-American diatribe is not exactly brimming with love.

No

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Love? Whoever loves the world and the things of the world (including the countries, the governments, the finances, the pharmakeia (most evil and largest evil),
the entertainment, the bigotry, the fornications, the oppression, the dealings, the idolatries, the abominations )
CANNOT be a friend of God (but is His enemy).

 

[SolomonVII]

No

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

I think that Paul was able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
It was only because the concept of citizenship existed that he could make the metaphor of being a citizen in heaven. Being a citizen of Heaven does not mean that he renounced his citizenship of Rome, or ever showed anything but respect for the Roman government as legitimate.

In no way did he renounce his citizenship of Rome. That is how he was able to demand a trial in front of the Emperor, and why the tradition of him being beheaded is probable. Non citizens were being crucified at the time for the same kind of 'crimes'.

 

[W2L]

I think that Paul was able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
It was only because the concept of citizenship existed that he could make the metaphor of being a citizen in heaven. Being a citizen of Heaven does not mean that he renounced his citizenship of Rome, or ever showed anything but respect for the Roman government as legitimate.

In no way did he renounce his citizenship of Rome. That is how he was able to demand a trial in front of the Emperor, and why the tradition of him being beheaded is probable. Non citizens were being crucified at the time for the same kind of 'crimes'.

Why would Paul, an apostle of Jesus, hold onto his pagan, roman, country when he already gave up being a Hebrew? Are you even reading the scripture i posted?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Two points.
First point, Paul claimed his Roman citizenship to the end. It is incorrect to say that he gave up his homeland.
And that an anti-American diatribe is not exactly brimming with love.

Yes Paul was a Roman citizen by birth, along with being a Hebrew of Hebrews and Pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin......Then he converted to Christ and His kingdom....

Acts 22:
22 The crowd listened to Paul until he said this. Then they raised their voices and shouted, “Rid the earth of him! He’s not fit to live!”
25 As they stretched him out to flog him, Paul said to the centurion standing there, “Is it legal for you to flog a Roman citizen who hasn’t even been found guilty?”.......................
28 Then the commander said, “I had to pay a lot of money for my citizenship.”
“But I was born a citizen,” Paul replied.

Acts 23:
6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees.
10 The dispute became so violent that the commander was afraid Paul would be torn to pieces by them...............
11 The following night the Lord stood near Paul and said, “Take courage! As you have testified about me in Jerusalem, so you must also testify in Rome.”

Act 26:10
“This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests;
and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.

Those Jewish rulers appear to be the ones symbolizing the Devil in this verse?

Rev 2:10
“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer.
Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days.
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of the life.

John 8:44
"Ye out of a father, the devil are,
and the desires of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing".

...............................................

 

[W2L]

[my reply button doesn't work]
.

Paul sure wasnt preaching roman ideology, nor was he trying to be a good roman. The man gave up everything, even his earthly citizenship.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Two points.
First point, Paul claimed his Roman citizenship to the end. It is incorrect to say that he gave up his homeland.
And that an anti-American diatribe is not exactly brimming with love.

Paul sure wasnt preaching roman ideology, nor was he trying to be a good roman. The man gave up everything, even his earthly citizenship.

Can't argue wit dat!
For a kingdom more powerful than all the earthly kingdoms in the world

Col 1:13
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

1 Corin 2:
4 My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God

Interesting that the word "Almighty" is used only 1 time outside of Revelation, and that by our beloved brother, St Paul:

2 Corin 6:18
And I shall be to ye as a father and ye shall be to Me as sons and daughters is saying Lord Almighty

Reve 19:6
I heard something like the voice of a great multitude, and like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of mighty thunders, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns!

...........................

 

[RDKirk]

Two points.
First point, Paul claimed his Roman citizenship to the end. It is incorrect to say that he gave up his homeland.

Paul noted his Roman citizenship specifically only when dealing with Roman officials. It was never anything he ever noted with other Christians or in the context of the gospel. When asserting his ethnic identity, he asserted either Judaism or Christianity.

And that an anti-American diatribe is not exactly brimming with love.

An "anti-America" diatribe is not the same thing as an "anti-American" diatribe.

One of the interesting things about living outside the US for a significant amount of time and being able to discuss Christ and politics with Christians of other nations is observing their way of separating "Americans" from America. Many people in the world like Americans while detesting America. In fact, hardly anywhere anyone dislikes "Americans" as individuals (even Iranians don't particularly dislike individual Americans), while people of a great many nations detest America.

 

[salt-n-light]

Our citizenship is in heaven.

Amen!

 

[W2L]

Amen!

Amen.