The kingdom vs america

[RDKirk]

It felt very un-American to me.

Forgive me...

Christianity, done right, is un-American.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Christianity, done right, is un-American.

You mean like the guy who keeps getting arrested for feeding the homeless?

Forgive me...

 

[One Of The Elect]

Christianity, done right, is un-American.

Thank you soldier for the kingdom of heaven. Our weapons are not of this world. He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Christianity is the weapon used against the world.

 

[W2L]

The first sentence is Biblical. The second sentence is anti-American.
That is what I think.

Thats ok, paul gave up his homeland so he could seek the kingdom. I can do the same

 

[Monna]

I highly recommend reading William Stringfellow's "An Ethic for Christians and other aliens in a strange land." (Word Books, 1973) He writes that the "principalities and powers" referred to in the Scriptures are institutions and organisations set up by men and women. We tend to forget that all of these were also implicated in the great Fall, and whatever their original goal and purpose, they inevitably succumb to what he calls the "morality of death." This is as sure as the law of gravity. They all lie under the thrall of the dark prince of this world. They are fallen as much as you and I are.

Included among these human organisations are our organised "churches," our denominations, but also our charities and welfare organisations. (All our organisations, public and private, have rules, regulations, statutes of incorporation, or equivalent. And ultimately these are used in ways that undermine or deter the personal growth of their leaders and employees, let alone the people they are meant to serve, or are used to enhance the personal power of a select few relative to the rest. This is a feature of the "morality of death.")

The State (of whichever country) is the archetype of this fallenness. This is illustrated by the fact that it is the state that gives itself the right to kill - whether in war or through the death sentence - which is the ultimate display of dehumanisation, of power over fellow human beings, the taking of a basic feature of our being in the image of God. But Stringfellow's definition of death covers all behaviour that dehumanises, that separates rather than unites, that excludes rather than includes, that discriminates one group of people from another, that incarcerates, that uses fear and violence to enforce its will, that climbs on the backs of others to reach higher levels of power, that manipulates or underpays workers to provide excess wealth for shareholders, that kills people chemically through avoiding adherence to environmental laws or refusing to accept scientific evidence of harm. And these attributes of the "morality of death" permeate many societies in ways that we often refuse to see. One of the commonest is the glorification of violence, even in the pursuit of "justice," which is common in our most popular movies, our TV shows, our literature -Superman or Superwoman, Batman, Luke Skywalker, etc etc etc. The Christian hero is Christ, who refused to use violence, and was crucified as a result. He warned that we would meet the same fate if we followed in his steps. He is the prince of peace who will "draw" all people to God - not force them there.

William Strangefellow fought for justice in the USA, knew that country's systemic problems better than he knew any other country, so he used that country as an example. But what he wrote of the US is found world wide in one form or another --- and remember it is not just government or public sector organisations, it is ALL our organisations that are infected.

 

[W2L]

I highly recommend reading William Stringfellow's "An Ethic for Christians and other aliens in a strange land." (Word Books, 1973) He writes that the "principalities and powers" referred to in the Scriptures are institutions and organisations set up by men and women. We tend to forget that all of these were also implicated in the great Fall, and whatever their original goal and purpose, they inevitably succumb to what he calls the "morality of death." This is as sure as the law of gravity. They all lie under the thrall of the dark prince of this world. They are fallen as much as you and I are.

Included among these human organisations are our organised "churches," our denominations, but also our charities and welfare organisations. (All our organisations, public and private, have rules, regulations, statutes of incorporation, or equivalent. And ultimately these are used in ways that undermine or deter the personal growth of their leaders and employees, let alone the people they are meant to serve, or are used to enhance the personal power of a select few relative to the rest. This is a feature of the "morality of death.")

The State (of whichever country) is the archetype of this fallenness. This is illustrated by the fact that it is the state that gives itself the right to kill - whether in war or through the death sentence - which is the ultimate display of dehumanisation, of power over fellow human beings, the taking of a basic feature of our being in the image of God. But Stringfellow's definition of death covers all behaviour that dehumanises, that separates rather than unites, that excludes rather than includes, that discriminates one group of people from another, that incarcerates, that uses fear and violence to enforce its will, that climbs on the backs of others to reach higher levels of power, that manipulates or underpays workers to provide excess wealth for shareholders, that kills people chemically through avoiding adherence to environmental laws or refusing to accept scientific evidence of harm. And these attributes of the "morality of death" permeate many societies in ways that we often refuse to see. One of the commonest is the glorification of violence, even in the pursuit of "justice," which is common in our most popular movies, our TV shows, our literature -Superman or Superwoman, Batman, Luke Skywalker, etc etc etc. The Christian hero is Christ, who refused to use violence, and was crucified as a result. He warned that we would meet the same fate if we followed in his steps. He is the prince of peace who will "draw" all people to God - not force them there.

William Strangefellow fought for justice in the USA, knew that country's systemic problems better than he knew any other country, so he used that country as an example. But what he wrote of the US is found world wide in one form or another --- and remember iy is not just government or public sector organisations, it is ALL our organisations that are infected.

Thanks Monna

 

[SolomonVII]

Thats ok, paul gave up his homeland so he could seek the kingdom. I can do the same

Anyone who is filled with hate has not just given up their homeland. The Kingdom does not belong to those who do not know love.

 

[W2L]

Anyone who is filled with hate has not just given up their homeland. The Kingdom does not belong to those who do not know love.

Paul wasnt filled with hate when he gave up his homeland. Neither am i. Whats your point exactly?

 

[W2L]

Matthew 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[k] or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

 

[fat wee robin]

From an outsiders point of view, it seems that Americans think their country is something special. It's not. It just happens to be the most powerful since the former super powers in Europe were toppled after two world wars which barely touched the USA, comparatively speaking.

As far as empires and superpowers go, the USA has not been around for long and I see no reason to suspect it will be so dominant in the future.

That's correct,because while you have guns and are the biggest military power on the globe ,here where I am there is living history .Am just watching a boulangerie competition , and one of the boulangerie is a thousand years old, without electricity ,and in a village to go with it .
The Americans are too ready to move onto the next fix ,but life eternal begins with creating right now ,the best community, and way of life which includes anyone who is positive .
France ,as the rest of Europe, was created around the RCC and they have done so much which is good and 'eternal ' ,while fast America ,and England her 'mother' ,wanted carnal power more than anything .In their ignorance of history ,among other things things ,they think America is greater than others ,but that is ignorance .

 

[fat wee robin]

It also falls short of the United Kingdom

I thought it was England ,there is no United Kingdom
in reality ,who started the U.S.

 

[fat wee robin]

Why are you using America for an example?
Why not use "world countries" instead?
Just makes me feel like you may have an agenda against the US.

I could easily substitute the US in Matt 21:43..

Mat 21:
43
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from ye[Jews] and given to a nation [America]bearing the fruits of it.
45
Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

Thank you. Perhaps America is too smug since they have 2 large oceans protecting them? But let's face it, much of the world is about worldliness and ungodliness.
Whatever happened to the great commission [including the Jews]??

Matt 10:
26 No then being afraid of them, for is nothing having been covered which not shall be being uncovered, and hidden which shall not be being known.
27 Which I am saying to ye in the darkness say ye! in the Light.
And which into the ear ye are hearing proclaim ye! on the housetops [Luke 12:3]

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

On this earth there are more than seven billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!

What about the millions of people living now in the modern nations of Red China where the Gospel is suppressed? Those people did not choose to be born into these godless nations. Are they lost forever because they never heard the true message of God's love in Christ? Is this their only day of salvation?
Are they eternally doomed when they die? Will a just God and Saviour condemn to eternal damnation those people who died before the true Gospel was ever brought to them? Is God about to "shut the door" of mercy in their face?

We hear much today about evangelizing and saving the world in one generation. The preachers tell us this mission must be accomplished before Christ can return, and it must be done in this generation. We hear of glorious revival at home and abroad, of fresh missionary efforts in various directions, of great Crusades attended by tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands, of radio and television beamed by satellite to all the nations of earth, and of large sums being devoted to these endeavors: and we get the idea that adequate efforts are being made for the evangelization of the nations of the earth.

It is estimated today that the world's population is over seven billion, and it is a fact that considerably more than one-half - nearly two-thirds - are still TOTALLY HEATHEN, and the remainder are mostly either followers of Mohammed or members of those great apostate Churches whose religion is practically a Christianized idolatry, and who can scarcely be said to hold or teach the Gospel of Christ.

And what about the multiplied billions who have gone before and never had any contact with the living Christ? Even if all the people of this one generation could be saved, it would be only a infinitesimal fraction of the people who have ever lived, and there would be no victory for God, for the devil would still possess the vast majority of mankind.

It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than three billion were truly saints of God.
This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty seven billions (157,000,000,000) who went to their graves without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved.

You have it wrong about the many many billlions born since Jesus ; people are born again ,and again until the Last Judgement ,when we will know how many have really been created .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Christianity is the weapon used against the world.

No, Jesus did not come to destroy the world, but to save people out of the world so they would not be destroyed along with it, as everyone deserves (to be destroyed).

Christianity as Jesus Lives is not a weapon at all, though yes, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

To bring down the strongholds (which are many) of the devil, yes, is good - setting people free, healing them, restoring them....

i.e. a weapon against the devil, not against the world, but to set whosoever will (whoever is willing) free from the devil, and from sin, and from the death-sentence-judgment the whole world is under ....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But let's face it, much of the world is about worldliness and ungodliness.
Whatever happened to the great commission [including the Jews]??

This is perfectly correct.... most billions are lost , no matter how many billions are born again... as written in all Scripture.

Why did you ask whatever happened to the great commission ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
But let's face it, much of the world is about worldliness and ungodliness.
Whatever happened to the great commission [including the Jews]??

This is perfectly correct.... most billions are lost , no matter how many billions are born again... as written in all Scripture.
Why did you ask whatever happened to the great commission ?

Ah, your right, I didn't think about that.
It would be nigh impossible to reach approx 7.5 billion people in the world, including the hundreds of millions being born each year.
I found this world population clock interesting:

World Population Clock: 7.6 Billion People (2017) - Worldometers

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
God Will Have All Men Be Saved

On this earth there are more than seven billion people!

The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it
What about the millions of people living now in the modern nations of Red China where the Gospel is suppressed? Those people did not choose to be born into these godless nations. Are they lost forever because they never heard the true message of God's love in Christ? Is this their only day of salvation? Are they eternally doomed when they die? Will a just God and Saviour condemn to eternal damnation those people who died before the true Gospel was ever brought to them? Is God about to "shut the door" of mercy in their face?

We hear much today about evangelizing and saving the world in one generation. The preachers tell us this mission must be accomplished before Christ can return, and it must be done in this generation.
We hear of glorious revival at home and abroad, of fresh missionary efforts in various directions, of great Crusades attended by tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands, of radio and television beamed by satellite to all the nations of earth, and of large sums being devoted to these endeavors: and we get the idea that adequate efforts are being made for the evangelization of the nations of the earth.

It is estimated today that the world's population is over seven billion, and it is a fact that considerably more than one-half - nearly two-thirds - are still TOTALLY HEATHEN, and the remainder are mostly either followers of Mohammed or members of those great apostate Churches whose religion is practically a Christianized idolatry, and who can scarcely be said to hold or teach the Gospel of Christ.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Ah, your right, I didn't think about that.
It would be nigh impossible to reach approx 7.5 billion people in the world, including the hundreds of millions being born each year.

Sorry? What ?

If people would / were willing to believe, and sought YHWH the CREATOR,

if anyone seeks YHWH the CREATOR, HIS KINGDOM,

HIS PROMISE, HIS WORD, is that they WILL FIND HIM.

This does not depend on man, nor ever on man's resources.

People / society is pernicious (death dealing), so most people never turn to YHWH.

Still, even when someone is in such a family/ group/ country/

IF they seek YHWH'S KINGDOM, and keep seeking, they will find it.

Again, this is YHWH'S PROMISE, and HE ALWAYS KEEPS and UPHOLDS and GUARDS HIS WORD to PERFORM IT.

 

[One Of The Elect]

No, Jesus did not come to destroy the world, but to save people out of the world so they would not be destroyed along with it, as everyone deserves (to be destroyed).

Christianity as Jesus Lives is not a weapon at all, though yes, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

To bring down the strongholds (which are many) of the devil, yes, is good - setting people free, healing them, restoring them....

i.e. a weapon against the devil, not against the world, but to set whosoever will (whoever is willing) free from the devil, and from sin, and from the death-sentence-judgment the whole world is under ....

Matthew 10:34 " Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace but a sword." Rev. 2:16 Repent then. If not , I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth." Meaning: He will come to the church in this letter He speaking of and Christ will use the sword of His mouth, meaning His people who hold to His teaching's he will use against the false teachings ascribed to in this letter. This world is passing and all it's vain things with it. And yes Christ is going to destroy the earth with fire to make way for the the new earth. This is the Battle of Armageddon at the end of time, 2 Peter 3:10" But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sorry? What ?
If people would / were willing to believe, and sought YHWH the CREATOR,
if anyone seeks YHWH the CREATOR, HIS KINGDOM,
HIS PROMISE, HIS WORD, is that they WILL FIND HIM.
This does not depend on man, nor ever on man's resources.
People / society is pernicious (death dealing), so most people never turn to YHWH.
Still, even when someone is in such a family/ group/ country/
IF they seek YHWH'S KINGDOM, and keep seeking, they will find it.

Again, this is YHWH'S PROMISE, and HE ALWAYS KEEPS and UPHOLDS and GUARDS HIS WORD to PERFORM IT.

Sounds like a plan....

Isaiah 55:11
so shall My Word be that goeth forth out of My mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Isaiah 65:1
"I am sought of them that asked not for me;
I am found of them that sought me not:
I said, 'Behold me! behold me!' unto a nation that was not called by my name".

Matthew 17:5
Still of Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud over shadows them
and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son/Word of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!". [Deut 28/Acts 3:22]

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the Messenger of the church in Thyatira write!…” (Rev. 2:18).
“These things saith the Son/Word of the God,
who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire and His feet are like fine brass;

Reve 19:
12 The eyes of Him as flame of fire and on His head, many diadems,
having Name having been written which no-one has perceived if no He.
13 And having been clothed a cloak, having been dipped to blood
and has been called the Name of Him, the Word of the God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Matthew 10:34 " Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace but a sword." Rev. 2:16 Repent then. If not , I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth." Meaning: He will come to the church in this letter He speaking of and Christ will use the sword of His mouth, meaning His people who hold to His teaching's he will use against the false teachings ascribed to in this letter. This world is passing and all it's vain things with it. And yes Christ is going to destroy the earth with fire to make way for the the new earth. This is the Battle of Armageddon at the end of time, 2 Peter 3:10" But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up."

Christianity is not even mentioned here.

While 'Christendom' has destroyed many souls perhaps/ many lives,

Jesus did not come to destroy men, but to save them.

i.e. not everyone who calls on His Name obeys Him nor does the will of the Father in heaven.

 

[One Of The Elect]

Christianity is not even mentioned here.

While 'Christendom' has destroyed many souls perhaps/ many lives,

Jesus did not come to destroy men, but to save them.

i.e. not everyone who calls on His Name obeys Him nor does the will of the Father in heaven.

Whatever. This is a Christian forum. Everything is measured by Christian doctrine. Are you mistakenly in the wrong forum? Men destroys himself by rejecting truth. We have a choice Truth or Lie. I choose truth!