The kingdom vs america

LittleLambofJesus

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The kingdom is about peace, righteousness, and joy in the spirit. America is about division, strife and materialism.

Any thoughts?
Why are you using America for an example?
Why not use "world countries" instead?
Just makes me feel like you may have an agenda against the US.

I could easily substitute the US in Matt 21:43..

Mat 21:
43
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from ye[Jews] and given to a nation [America]bearing the fruits of it.
45
Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.
 
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W2L

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Why are you using America for an example?
Why not use "world countries" instead?
Just makes me feel like you may have an agenda against the US.

I could easily substitute the US in Matt 21:43..

Mat 21:
43
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from ye[Jews] and given to a nation [America]bearing the fruits of it.
45
Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.
Forgive me, im not picking on america alone, but i dont live in other countries so its hard to comment on them. Of course i am speaking of the world. America is about worldliness
 
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W2L

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I could easily substitute the US in Matt 21:43..

Mat 21:
43
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from ye[Jews] and given to a nation [America]bearing the fruits of it.
45
Our citizenship is in heaven. Philippians 3:20
 
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ConvictionofGod

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its not just america, all major metropolitan areas in any developed country will have similar problems about strife and materialism, Dubai is a good example, its only easier to pick on the US because the country has been called the "materialistic west"
 
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mindlight

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The kingdom is about peace, righteousness, and joy in the spirit. America is about division, strife and materialism.

Any thoughts?

No nation is an exact representation of the Kingdom. But I see an enormous amount of value in the history of America. It remains the best of a bad bunch. Under Trump for all the bad press he gets I see a reversal of many of the antichristian trends of recent years e.g. the restoration of the first amendment to the discussion of abortion and appointment of supreme justices with some sense. Historically America did / is doing the following:

1) The defeat of Kaiser Wilhelms ambitions in WW1 and then Hitler in WW2 owed a lot to American intervention and tipped the balance in favour of good and of freedom.

2) Marshall Aid after WW2 saved Europe from ruin.

3) Without America Communism would probably have conquered the world.

4) The foundation of the state of Israel following 2000 years of exile and the holocaust owes much to American intervention. America remains crucial to Its ongoing defence against Islamic extremism and hostile neighbour's.

5) Innumerable missionaries and benevolent charities originated in the USA.

6) There is an ongoing witness from a country with probably more Christian believers than any other on the planet.

7) The American dominated era since WW2 has been on of the most peaceful in global history and it remains crucial to world stability. While America is preeminent other powers are not violently competing for the throne.

So in many ways America is that City on hill that was envisioned by the more enlightened of its founding fathers and it is clear to see Gods Sovereign hand in its pre-eminence.

Where America is at odds with the Kingdom of God are in many ways a part of the same package that enabled its ability to be so benevolent on the world stage. Its materialism and its economic power, its egotistic narcissistic individualism and its commitment to freedom, its violent gun culture and the power of its military walk hand in hand for instance. But there are things in America that really do not glorify God and need Christians to challenge:

1) Materialistic greed has sabotaged the social mobility that was implicit in the American dream and made it a matter of individual selfish ambition rather than sacrificial service and grand visions.
2) Liberal gun laws have enabled a culture of violence and murder of which Las Vegas was just the tip of the iceberg.
3) The ruin of social liberalism : abortion, gay marriage, sex outside marriage , divorce, illegitimacy levels etc being the poisoned fruit
4) A secular public culture (under the Democrats especially) that has removed the mention and guidance of God from the public sector. A news, media and entertainment industry that is increasingly godless in its outlook. This despite the fact that a majority of the country remains Christian in outlook. Christians have often retreated into ghettos and let the bad guys take charge.
 
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W2L

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its not just america, all major metropolitan areas in any developed country will have similar problems about strife and materialism, Dubai is a good example, its only easier to pick on the US because the country has been called the "materialistic west"
As i said, i dont live in other countries, so i cannot comment on them. However i believe the whole world is guilty of worldliness, instead of seeking the Kingdom. God commands all men everywhere to repent, and judgment starts at Gods house.
 
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ConvictionofGod

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As i said, i dont live in other countries, so i cannot comment on them. However i believe the whole world is guilty of worldliness, instead of seeking the Kingdom. God commands all men everywhere to repent, and judgment starts at Gods house.

no worries brother, i was commenting on the thread title, not anyones post directly.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Forgive me, im not picking on america alone, but i dont live in other countries so its hard to comment on them. Of course i am speaking of the world. America is about worldliness
Thank you. Perhaps America is too smug since they have 2 large oceans protecting them? But let's face it, much of the world is about worldliness and ungodliness.
Whatever happened to the great commission [including the Jews]??

Matt 10:
26 No then being afraid of them, for is nothing having been covered which not shall be being uncovered, and hidden which shall not be being known.
27 Which I am saying to ye in the darkness say ye! in the Light.
And which into the ear ye are hearing proclaim ye! on the housetops
[Luke 12:3]

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

On this earth there are more than seven billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!

What about the millions of people living now in the modern nations of Red China where the Gospel is suppressed? Those people did not choose to be born into these godless nations. Are they lost forever because they never heard the true message of God's love in Christ? Is this their only day of salvation?
Are they eternally doomed when they die? Will a just God and Saviour condemn to eternal damnation those people who died before the true Gospel was ever brought to them? Is God about to "shut the door" of mercy in their face?

We hear much today about evangelizing and saving the world in one generation. The preachers tell us this mission must be accomplished before Christ can return, and it must be done in this generation. We hear of glorious revival at home and abroad, of fresh missionary efforts in various directions, of great Crusades attended by tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands, of radio and television beamed by satellite to all the nations of earth, and of large sums being devoted to these endeavors: and we get the idea that adequate efforts are being made for the evangelization of the nations of the earth.

It is estimated today that the world's population is over seven billion, and it is a fact that considerably more than one-half - nearly two-thirds - are still TOTALLY HEATHEN, and the remainder are mostly either followers of Mohammed or members of those great apostate Churches whose religion is practically a Christianized idolatry, and who can scarcely be said to hold or teach the Gospel of Christ.

And what about the multiplied billions who have gone before and never had any contact with the living Christ? Even if all the people of this one generation could be saved, it would be only a infinitesimal fraction of the people who have ever lived, and there would be no victory for God, for the devil would still possess the vast majority of mankind.

It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than three billion were truly saints of God.
This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty seven billions (157,000,000,000) who went to their graves without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved.
 
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brinny

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The Church imho, is too conformed to the world.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You are correct, in that, for instance, those Christians that stood behind and supported abortion proponents and supported one of the biggest supporters of the biggest conglomerate of the abortion industry, the one that ran for the presidential office and lost. The very same one that robbed and further wounded and devastated an already inexplicably suffering Haiti (amongst other things).

God help us.

 
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W2L

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No nation is an exact representation of the Kingdom. But I see an enormous amount of value in the history of America. It remains the best of a bad bunch. Under Trump for all the bad press he gets I see a reversal of many of the antichristian trends of recent years e.g. the restoration of the first amendment to the discussion of abortion and appointment of supreme justices with some sense. Historically America did / is doing the following:

1) The defeat of Kaiser Wilhelms ambitions in WW1 and then Hitler in WW2 owed a lot to American intervention and tipped the balance in favour of good and of freedom.

2) Marshall Aid after WW2 saved Europe from ruin.

3) Without America Communism would probably have conquered the world.

4) The foundation of the state of Israel following 2000 years of exile and the holocaust owes much to American intervention. America remains crucial to Its ongoing defence against Islamic extremism and hostile neighbour's.

5) Innumerable missionaries and benevolent charities originated in the USA.

6) There is an ongoing witness from a country with probably more Christian believers than any other on the planet.

7) The American dominated era since WW2 has been on of the most peaceful in global history and it remains crucial to world stability. While America is preeminent other powers are not violently competing for the throne.

So in many ways America is that City on hill that was envisioned by the more enlightened of its founding fathers and it is clear to see Gods Sovereign hand in its pre-eminence.

Where America is at odds with the Kingdom of God are in many ways a part of the same package that enabled its ability to be so benevolent on the world stage. Its materialism and its economic power, its egotistic narcissistic individualism and its commitment to freedom, its violent gun culture and the power of its military walk hand in hand for instance. But there are things in America that really do not glorify God and need Christians to challenge:

1) Materialistic greed has sabotaged the social mobility that was implicit in the American dream and made it a matter of individual selfish ambition rather than sacrificial service and grand visions.
2) Liberal gun laws have enabled a culture of violence and murder of which Las Vegas was just the tip of the iceberg.
3) The ruin of social liberalism : abortion, gay marriage, sex outside marriage , divorce, illegitimacy levels etc being the poisoned fruit
4) A secular public culture (under the Democrats especially) that has removed the mention and guidance of God from the public sector. A news, media and entertainment industry that is increasingly godless in its outlook. This despite the fact that a majority of the country remains Christian in outlook. Christians have often retreated into ghettos and let the bad guys take charge.
Americas freedom is alluring, but the first church thrived under the imperialist roman empire. The fact that america is so alluring is a trap. We are taught to seek the kingdom, not america.
 
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W2L

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Thank you. Perhaps America is too smug since they have 2 large oceans protecting them? But let's face it, much of the world is about worldliness and ungodliness.
Whatever happened to the great commission [including the Jews]??

Matt 10:
26 No then being afraid of them, for is nothing having been covered which not shall be being uncovered, and hidden which shall not be being known.
27 Which I am saying to ye in the darkness say ye! in the Light.
And which into the ear ye are hearing proclaim ye! on the housetops
[Luke 12:3]

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

On this earth there are more than seven billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!

What about the millions of people living now in the modern nations of Red China where the Gospel is suppressed? Those people did not choose to be born into these godless nations. Are they lost forever because they never heard the true message of God's love in Christ? Is this their only day of salvation?
Are they eternally doomed when they die? Will a just God and Saviour condemn to eternal damnation those people who died before the true Gospel was ever brought to them? Is God about to "shut the door" of mercy in their face?

We hear much today about evangelizing and saving the world in one generation. The preachers tell us this mission must be accomplished before Christ can return, and it must be done in this generation. We hear of glorious revival at home and abroad, of fresh missionary efforts in various directions, of great Crusades attended by tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands, of radio and television beamed by satellite to all the nations of earth, and of large sums being devoted to these endeavors: and we get the idea that adequate efforts are being made for the evangelization of the nations of the earth.

It is estimated today that the world's population is over seven billion, and it is a fact that considerably more than one-half - nearly two-thirds - are still TOTALLY HEATHEN, and the remainder are mostly either followers of Mohammed or members of those great apostate Churches whose religion is practically a Christianized idolatry, and who can scarcely be said to hold or teach the Gospel of Christ.

And what about the multiplied billions who have gone before and never had any contact with the living Christ? Even if all the people of this one generation could be saved, it would be only a infinitesimal fraction of the people who have ever lived, and there would be no victory for God, for the devil would still possess the vast majority of mankind.

It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than three billion were truly saints of God.
This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty seven billions (157,000,000,000) who went to their graves without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved.
I cannot answer your question, but i do hope that all people will find Gods rest, peace, joy, and love
 
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mindlight

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Americas freedom is alluring, but the first church thrived under the imperialist roman empire. The fact that america is so alluring is a trap. We are taught to seek the kingdom, not america.

Yes but I think that perspective ignores the ways in which God is using America despite all its faults. I gave 7 examples of such. You do not have to set Gods Kingdom against the USA when it is clear that much that America does serves the Kingdom.
 
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W2L

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You do not have to set Gods Kingdom against the USA
Yes i do. The kingdom is about seeking only the kingdom. Paul gave up being a Jew and being a pharisee. He said that our citizenship is in heaven. Then he instructs us to follow his example. (Philippians 3)
 
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mindlight

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Yes i do. The kingdom is about seeking only the kingdom. Paul gave up being a Jew and being a pharisee. He said that our citizenship is in heaven. Then he instructs us to follow his example. (Philippians 3)

With that mentality you could live in a log cabin in the heights of the Rockies or a deserted shack in the Middle of the Arizona desert and devote your life to prayer and praise.

But it is Americans that stepped outside their gated Christian communities who truly advanced the kingdom and held back the tide of evil that threatened to engulf us all. Americans who fought in global wars, who financed the reconstruction of Europe, who opposed the godless evil empire of communism ,whose compassion supported the restoration of a home for the Jewish people after the holocaust, who preach Gods word in season and out, in public schools, in government and in the media who are the soldiers and citizens of that kingdom.

The church has retreated before into its ghettos. This is not the time for good men to do nothing though. Resist the devil and he will flee from you, take captive every thought and idea for Christ.
 
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W2L

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With that mentality you could live in a log cabin in the heights of the Rockies or a deserted shack in the Middle of the Arizona desert and devote your life to prayer and praise.

But it is Americans that stepped outside their gated Christian communities who truly advanced the kingdom and held back the tide of evil that threatened to engulf us all. Americans who fought in global wars, who financed the reconstruction of Europe, who opposed the godless evil empire of communism ,whose compassion supported the restoration of a home for the Jewish people after the holocaust, who preach Gods word in season and out, in public schools, in government and in the media who are the soldiers and citizens of that kingdom.

The church has retreated before into its ghettos. This is not the time for good men to do nothing though. Resist the devil and he will flee from you, take captive every thought and idea for Christ.

With that mentality you could live in a log cabin in the heights of the Rockies or a deserted shack in the Middle of the Arizona desert and devote your life to prayer and praise.
No, with that mentality i will be seeking the kingdom, not living in a mountain cabin.


But it is Americans that stepped outside their gated Christian communities who truly advanced the kingdom and held back the tide of evil that threatened to engulf us all.

Our weapons of warfare are not carnal. We do not war in the flesh. 2 Corinthians 10:4

A valuable distinction between the Kingdom and america.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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With that mentality you could live in a log cabin in the heights of the Rockies or a deserted shack in the Middle of the Arizona desert and devote your life to prayer and praise.

The church has retreated before into its ghettos. This is not the time for good men to do nothing though. Resist the devil and he will flee from you, take captive every thought and idea for Christ.
Sound good to me...
Or seek the kingdom in a nice secluded cave.........


Josh 10:
16 But these five kings had fled and hidden themselves in a cave at Makkedah.

27........and they took them down from the trees, cast them into the cave where they had been hidden, and laid large stones against the cave’s mouth, which remain until this very day.


Matt 21:13
And He is saying to them "it has been written 'My House a House of prayer shall be being called,
ye yet it are making a den/cave/sphlaion <4693> of robbers'".
[Jeremiah 7:11]

Reve 6:15
And the kings of the land and the greatest and the thousand-chiefs/chief-of-thousands and the rich ones and the strong ones and every bond-servant and free man
hide selves into the dens/caves/sphlaia <4693> and into the rocks of the mountains.


 
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RDKirk

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No nation is an exact representation of the Kingdom. But I see an enormous amount of value in the history of America. It remains the best of a bad bunch. Under Trump for all the bad press he gets I see a reversal of many of the antichristian trends of recent years e.g. the restoration of the first amendment to the discussion of abortion and appointment of supreme justices with some sense.

To be sure, God in His almighty sovereignty has from time to time usually used America as a tool in His plan for the destiny of the world. But it's foolish to silly to praise the pot for the use of it made by the potter.

Historically America did / is doing the following:

1) The defeat of Kaiser Wilhelms ambitions in WW1 and then Hitler in WW2 owed a lot to American intervention and tipped the balance in favour of good and of freedom.

2) Marshall Aid after WW2 saved Europe from ruin.

3) Without America Communism would probably have conquered the world.

All of this was done not for "favor of good and freedom" but by the US government to maintain the power and wealth of the elite, both in Europe and in America.

For instance, during those wars the US government promised colonized native people "liberty and freedom" if they would fight for the American cause, but then after both WWI and WWII, the US government instantly reneged on those promises and promptly turned them back over to their European masters.

After WWII, the US was on board with the Treaty of Versailles, which even at the time was known to be so Draconian in its penalties upon Germany that it was certain Germany would ultimately have to respond with war, whether there was a "Hitler" or not.

The fact that the US had learned a lesson from the earlier mistake and administered Germany and Japan at the end of WWII with more worldly self-interest than they did at the end of WWI is not the goodness of Christ. That's merely the self-interested "goodness" of the world. Even evil men know how to do "good" to those from whom they expect "good" in return.

Everything the US government does in the world is to make more secure its political and economic power in the world.

4) The foundation of the state of Israel following 2000 years of exile and the holocaust owes much to American intervention. America remains crucial to Its ongoing defence against Islamic extremism and hostile neighbour's.

First, that was mostly Great Britain. Second, Jews had secured a significant amount of political and economic power in the US by then. I'm not at all "blaming" them--they were understandibily looking out for their own interests--but that wasn't from the goodness of Christ, but again, a matter of worldly self-interest. The average American was still anti-Semite.

Everything the US government does in the world is to make more secure its political and economic power in the world. The US has attempted to us Israel as a counterpoint to the USSR and a continuous counterpoint to any other Middle Eastern nation assuming regional dominance. By keeping them all teetering, the US maintains power.

5) Innumerable missionaries and benevolent charities originated in the USA.

All that has been done by non-government Christians, not by the US government, so that's not a matter to praise the US government. Great Britain in its heyday did more government-sponsored missionary activity than the US has ever done, even including non-government missionary efforts. If that's supposed to be a point of praise for a nation, Great Britain is the winner.

6) There is an ongoing witness from a country with probably more Christian believers than any other on the planet.

God has never cared about numbers. God is certainly more concerned about purity of belief and effectiveness in His actual mission: Make disciples of all nations.

Oppressed Christians in China are making disciples at the rate of 1,000 a week. China might already have more Spirit-filled Christians than America, where most "Christians" in America are only Christian by nominal default. Christians in North Korea--even those horribly oppressed Christians in North Korea--have swelled in ranks from 5,000 in the mid 90s to an estimated 50,000 today.

Christians in America cannot hold a candle up to them. Theirs is the mightier witness.

7) The American dominated era since WW2 has been on of the most peaceful in global history and it remains crucial to world stability. While America is preeminent other powers are not violently competing for the throne.

That could be said for Imperial Rome as well in Paul's day. And for longer than so far for America.

Now, that's not an insignificant point today, just as it was not in Paul's time. It is a fact that "Satan moves easily under the veil of chaos."

I have observed that the Body of Christ can operate more effectively in an orderly society than in social chaos even if the orderly society is oppressive. We can compare North Korea or China or the USSR with Sudan and see that the Holy Spirit can work in an oppressive ordered society, but hardly at all in complete social chaos.

That's why Paul and Peter could advise the Christians of their day to obey the laws of even an evil king to maintain social order and to pray, specifically, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

God has used America as His tool.

He also used, at one time or another, Egypt, Persia, Rome, and Great Britain as His tools. God deposes kings and raises up others. It is therefore absolute madness for Christians to tie themselves to any particular king or nation, because God does not respect any worldly king or nation--they are nothing but tools in His hand.

For those Christians who have a glimmer of understanding of that, I strongly recommend diving into 1 Peter, which is the "field manual" for Christians as ambassadors of Heaven deployed to the nations of the world.
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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You are correct, in that, for instance, those Christians that stood behind and supported abortion proponents and supported one of the biggest supporters of the biggest conglomerate of the abortion industry, the one that ran for the presidential office and lost. The very same one that robbed and further wounded and devastated an already inexplicably suffering Haiti (amongst other things).

God help us.


Yes. But many Christians point the finger at sinners but do not understand that it is themselves who don't love, who hate people they disagree with, and who are racist, who support racist acts and groups like the KKK and are ok with people getting run down in the streets. And a lot are too proud to repent. But I say to my sisters and brothers, Repent for He is near.
 
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The kingdom is about peace, righteousness, and joy in the spirit. America is about division, strife and materialism.

Any thoughts?

Christ is very clear, He says : " My kingdom is not of this world. " We learn in Revelation 11: 15 when this world becomes His. " Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet , and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and shall reign forever and ever. This will be at the end of the tribulation.
 
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