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The Kingdom of God

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by aggie03, Jun 19, 2002.

  1. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Ok, Christ came in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 -this was His 2nd Coming. When He returned salvation was complete. What Jesus established through the Cross -salvation, took a generation of outworking through the new covenant believers and was fulfilled or complete at His return. Christ's return was literal BUT it was not not physical. So when you say "show me Christ" the biblical answer is the body of believers IS the Body of Christ -God's dwelling place and Temple -He now dwells with us. The Kingdom is all encompassing and inclusive, BUT not everyone acknowledges or obeys the King [God] -just like not everyone under the domain of the US obeys its laws.

    Before Christ came the believers had the promise of salvation in down-payment through the Holy Spirit, that's why Paul wrote:

    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly await for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    Paul also said that one doesn't hope for what one has already. The above scripture proves that what they were eagerly waiting for [righteousness] was not complete -it was their hope. When Christ came righteousness was fulfilled.

    davo
     
  2. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
    +3
    Protestant
    All things will be restored to their original splendor and Christ himself will be personally present in the midst of God's fully redeemed new creation.

    In other words, that which "anyone [who] is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17) already knows to be reality inwardly will be fully manifest outwardly. To the righteous, this will mean eternity in the presence of God. To the wicked, it will mean eternity in the lake of fire.

    But if you truly expect to be numbered among the righteous who are to share in God's eternal kingdom, you are best advised to avoid speculating as to "when" Christ might "return" and, instead, live so as to manifest his presence in the world right now! For, as Jesus himself says, "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you."
     
  3. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    I've agreed with much of what you say so far Patmosman...

    but being numbered with the righteous has nothing to do with speculating in Christ's return...It has everything to do with acceptance of Christ's redemptive act for you...for you, whether you speculate or not, whether you murder or not, whether you commit adultery or not, whether you SIN or NOT...are not righteous on your own and are deserved of eternal damnation (you and your, of course meant as general)...
     
  4. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
    +3
    Protestant
    I did not mean to imply that speculating about Christ's return would disqualify anyone from being numbered among the righteous. I only meant to suggest that such speculation is not a healthy or fruitful exercise for the righteous to engage in. While not disqualifying in and of itself, it can lead persons down a very dangerous path.

    Paul warned Timothy about those who "devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith" (1 Timothy 1:4).

    It is a matter of stewardship, not of salvation per se.
     
  5. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    Thanks for clarifying Patmosman...I agree with you about the road it leads down...
     
  6. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi,

    So what happens when Christ returns you ask? In your case I assume.

    First, you will be recently, dead. Hebrews 9 ; 27,28
    Justme
     
  7. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    Married
    I would like to see the scriptural evidence for the return of Christ in 70 AD - I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it says that's when He came back, or more specifically prophecy that clearly indicates this is when He would have come back. Rather, many of the verses that I can find that talk about completion are not referring to the return of Christ to complete salvation (which was finished on the Cross, that's why He says "It's finished"), but rather are referring to the completion of the scriptures.
     
  8. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    Also, I just reread the scripture from Hebrews 9:27,28 which is as follows:

    "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

    Do you think that this means that Christ will appear before us when we die (rather we appear before Him, same thing I guess), or that this refers to Him appearing before all who are left alive on the Earth. I would think that the fact that the Bible mentions that we are to be dead in the previous verse that the correct interpretation of this would mean that we are already dead when we see Him a second time. I'm not really sure yet - I guess I have some more studying to do. Let me know what you think.
     
  9. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
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    Hi Aggie,

    I sort of answered this question on the "Temple" thread, but I'll repeat it here in case you missed it.

    The Bible does not say that Christ came back in 70AD because the NT scriptures were all written before 70AD. Specific dates are not given, but specific signs are, such as Jerusalem being "surrounded by armies"(Luke 21:20), and the destruction of the Temple that Jesus pointed to in Matt 24:1. All these things took place by 70AD, within "this generation", just like Christ said.

    Again, hope this helps.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  10. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Not all the NT was written before 70AD. Revelation was written between 85-95AD.
     
  11. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Mandy, if you want to do some serious reading; evidence for the AD70 date for the Revelation is at this link:

    http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/sidefrm2.htm

    The online free book is: "Before Jerusalem Fell - Dating the Book of Revelation" by Kenneth Gentry.

    Click on the 'Author' or 'Title' under 'BOOKS by' in the left column. [happy reading :)

    davo
     
  12. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    Married
    What about the idea that the second appearance of Christ came 3 days after His death and continued for 40 days after that. This would make sense to me because this is recorded in the scriptures. Then the only other time that we would see Christ is when we stand before Him in judgement. Thoughts?

    Also, about the argument you presented on the armies surrounding Jerusalem - there are still armies surrounding it, and I have heard the argument that since the aposltes are still alive in Heaven, that their generation isn't over - I think this is a pretty weak argument ( **very** weak) but the part about the armies is what intrigues me.
     
  13. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Dave, pick up a copy of Halley's Bible Handbook. Everything I have read from sources I know to be valid, say that Revelation was written at least a decade after 70AD.
     
  14. GTX

    GTX <font size=1><font color=gray><b>Rapid Transit Aut

    +1
    She's right!
     
  15. davo

    davo Member

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    Yeah that's ok -that's why I said "serious reading" i.e., if you're interested -there is a difference between a brief survey like Halley's and Gentry's work [BTW Gentry is an avowed futurist] so you should find him credible.

    davo
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    All souces for the "late date" (80-96AD) of Revelation are attributed to one questionable statement made by Ireneaus, who also taught Jesus lived to be 50, and wasn't actually crucified.

    There is no other indipendant source for the "late date" theory. Not one. They all rely on Ireneaus' statement for their "validity".
     
  17. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Well P70, if I was a futurist that would do me -can't go digging too deep :D :D :D

    davo
     
  18. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
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    Hi Aggie.

    The coming of Christ that is referred to in Matt 24 and Luke 21 cannot be connected to events like John 20 or 21, only 3 days after His crucifixion, because the Matt and Luke "coming" occurs after the ascencion, not before. This can be understood when reading all of the signs that had to take place before Christ came back (Matt 24:5,6,7,9,13,14,15,21). All of these things did not take place within 3 days of His death.

    Now, concerning the "armies" of Luke 21. Jesus told his disciples that when they see "Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(v.20)". The purpose of this sign was to trigger a reaction from the Church, and the reaction was "let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.(v.21,22)".

    Jerusalem being "compassed" by armies was sign that the desolation was close. So they were to flee to the mountains because the "days of vengeance" were occuring and all things that were written were going to be fulfilled. And in 70AD Jerusalem was indeed compassed by armies (within the disciples generation), the desolation therefore was close, and the believers throughout Jerusalem heeded the signs and fled the city and the surrounding area because the days of vengeance were at hand.

    One of the problems with taking Luke 21:20 beyond the 70AD generation is the fact that Jerusalem has been surrounded by armies numerous times throughout history (the Turkish armies led by Saladin in 1187AD for example). And yet each time Jerusalem was surrounded over the past 2000 years the "desolation" wasn't close, nor were "all things which were written" fulfilled. The "compassing" sign was to prompt believers to flee to the mountains because the "abomination" and the "days of vengeance" were at hand. This sign loses it's force if numerous sieges of Jerusalem can take place over hundreds of years without the desolation or the fulfillment of all scripture taking place. So when is the Church to flee?

    There are no armies surrounding Jerusalem at this present time. To equate "armies encompassing" Jerusalem with "suicide bombers sneaking into coffee shops" is beyond outrageous (I'm not saying your doing that, Aggie, but I've seen this interpretation before). Those Christians that espouse this view really don't believe it themselves, or else they would have already fled to mountainous areas to live the rest of their lives in caves or tents, surviving on roasted squirrel and rain water. Until Christians leave their lives and possessions behind to brace for the "days of vengeance" that are upon them, then this interpretation is a lot of air with no substance. Until Christians actually live out that interpretation, they don't really believe it. ;)

    Also, there are those who say that Jerusalem is surrounded by armies now simply because Israel is surrounded by enemy countries. Again, Luke 21 says that when Jerusalem is surrounded armies, not merely the borders of Israel, THEN the desolation is nigh. In 1948, Israel's borders were surrounded by armies from Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen. I've never read of Christians heading to the hills then, and I don't see them doing so now. So until the day comes when all Christians everywhere start their own secluded mountain communities, because Israel has countries around them that do not like them, then this interpretation also has bark but no bite. Until they live it, they don't believe it.

    He, he...the "alive in heaven" idea is indeed so poor that I just don't even have the energy for it. I hope my "armies" explaination gave you some good insight, though. Fire back any questions you might have. :wave:

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  19. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Thanks Acts6:5, those facts were clear and concise and well said. :wave:

    davo
     
  20. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
    +3
    Protestant
    The phrase "appear a second time" is from the Day of Atonement, the holiest day of the year on the Jewish calendar, when the High Priest, after appearing to the people in the temple court, would enter the Holy of Holies and offer the sacrifice of atonement for all the people's sins. Then, he would "appear a second time" to the people who were waiting outside. For the priest to "appear a second time" meant the sacrifice had been accepted and the sins atoned for. The blood of the lamb slain in the sacrifice was then placed on the head of the scapegoat, who was sent off into the wilderness.

    "Those who are waiting for him" includes the living and the dead. The events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem represent within history the completion of God's plan of salvation for all humankind. However, its ultimate realization is beyond history in the eschatological kingdom of God toward which all of history is moving. In the "end," Christ will "appear" to all of us and we will all "appear" before his judgment seat. Precisely how this is brought about is a matter of conjecture, although I tend to believe that those who have "gone before us" now have a little better understanding of this ultimate reality.
     
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