The Kingdom and Little Children

[Marvin Knox]

No problem.

I know. That's why I told you that I had answered your question exactly as it was written.

Would you say prophecy is a form of predestination?

No - I made it very clear that prophecy of the type I was speaking of is a revelation by God as to what has already been predestined to occur.

You really don't understand what predestination is do you? Why then do you critique it so often rather than asking someone who does understand?

But Marvin, I gave I did provide Jesus' own words which say of little children is the kingdom of God.

It says "of such is the kingdom of God.

If I'm not mistaken, you are saying it takes an open and accepting attitude to be saved. If I'm mistaken, please correct me.

You are correct and such a mind is the direct opposite of the mind of natural men pertaining to believing unto salvation.

Or, do you think entering the Kingdom is different than salvation?

One enters the Kingdom of God as they are justified and begin life under the commandments of God. Continued living under His commands is quite another thing.

While one who is saved will eventually and assuredly live only in obedience to the commandments of God - it is not automatic.

The difference between you and I is that I have faith that the promise to be in the Kingdom throughout eternity will never be reneged on. You believe that failure to live under His commands in perfection or at least up to some arbitrary standard you have set for yourself and others - makes a person no longer a child of God and therefore not assured of living in the Kingdom in perfection eventually without the tendency to disobey.

You assume there might be an age of accountability, and assume they will be among God's elect, right?

So, those little children, of such is the kingdom of God, are also children of wrath? This doesn't sound reasonable to me, but if reason needs to go, then we can entertain your theory.

No - I am proceeding under the assumption that that is correct for discussion purposes. I believe the scriptures are rather vague about that although I lean toward that assumption.

You only have to reason according to what I've said and not according to what you are representing me as believing and it will seem perfectly reasonable. It's only when you set up a straw man that it becomes unreasonable.

Also, if one has to profess faith in Christ's sacrifice as their only hope of salvation, then it logically concludes that these children of the kingdom were doomed.

One can not know what is predestined until after it occurs. They may well be among the elect of God. In fact - if the age of accountability is a correct assumption - they may not even need to profess Christ to end up living in the Kingdom of God forever and ever.

Is it within your belief that these infants, as children of wrath and not professing as above, were headed to hell, even though they were children of the Kingdom?

Let's get this right shall we? It does not say that the children were in the Kingdom of God it says that of such are the Kingdom of God.

Marvin, here is the problem of eternal security - I was born in a Christian home, learned of Jesus and His love ever since I could talk. I never hated God, nor turned my back on him. I was taught everything about believing Him for salvation, and believed as you do now. I attended Lutheran, Baptist, and Assembly of God churches all my life. I did and believed all the things you are trying to get me to do above.
How is it you say I lost my salvation now? Does believing something different cause one to lose his salvation? Just because I changed my views on some strongly held beliefs, mean I am not saved now?
Please tell me how I lost my salvation? Was my salvation not really secure?

I have not said that you lost your salvation. It may well be, however, that you never had it to begin with.

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

Does disagreeing with your beliefs cause me to lose my salvation?

No - absolutely not. But apparently when the shoe is on the other foot you are quite certain in your ruling on the salvation of others who do not live up to the standards of God perfectly or at least up to your arbitrarily reduced standards.

I don't understand, please show me where I lost my salvation? If I did lose it, then you are wrong and I am right. If I didn't lose it, then please stop reacting as if I did.

I have never said that you lost your salvation. I have said that it appears to me that you may well have never had it and justified before God through faith.

So long as you continue to preach a gospel of works I will continue to react to it. If and when you renege and teach that works are a result of salvation and not the means to salvation - I will gladly change my opinion as to your likely status.

If you continue to misrepresent what I say - I will have to cut off this conversation as I have in the past.

 

[EmSw]

1. 
   First off: Even good Bible dictionaries are not the final word on how a verse is interpreted in scripture, the Bible can interpret be used to understand other verses.

So, we can't say a person is clean who is innocent? Okay, have it your way; I won't complain.

All that happens after they enter the Kingdom and not going to the Kingdom and not when the are just entering the Kingdom.

So a little child, of whom is the Kingdom, is not really a part of the Kingdom. Do you consider yourself a part of the Kingdom, or will it be when you finally enter? I take you don't believe in eternal security.

The son still looks, smells, deserves the pigsty employment just prior to contacting the father. The contact with the father is what gives him a new life (this can happen for the sinner today at the moment of his repenting turning to God; who is at his elbow).

Since you want to make the prodigal son part of this discussion, we will use that.

It seems you are saying it is what is on the outside of the person, which makes them unclean. By this standard, most poor people who can't afford clean clothes, don't take baths, and smell offensively cannot have a new life in Christ. So, do you believe it is the outside of a person which makes them unclean?

I believe it is the heart which is unclean, that is, man's motives and intentions. For out of the heart, proceed sins of every kind. It was the son's intent to quit living in sin and return to the father. Without this intent, he would have never returned to the father.

There is nothing the young son did “worthy, honorable, deserving or Righteous” (like cleansing himself) prior to contacting the father. The young son wimped out, refused to pay the piper, and was unwilling to take the punishment he fully dissevered (starving to death in the pigsty). He selfishly wanted just some kind of life and live, to the point of being willing to disturb his wonderful father and older brother further with his stinky presence.

Again, you are making the cleansing of the outside of man as of utmost importance. The son had a change of heart, he realized he had sinned against his father. The only way to reconcile this, was to come to his senses, return to the father and repent for forgiveness. Here are his words - “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.”

This is a change of heart in the son. It mattered not what he wore nor what he smelled like. God looks upon the heart, not on outwardly matters.

The son was willing to fess up to the truth about himself and what he did (this was obvious to everyone) and we can always tell the truth and was willing to humbly accept the father’s charity (like a child), so when did the son make himself innocent or did the father give the son a start over with forgiveness at the son’s return?

You call it fessing up; I call it repentance. The son became innocent when he changed the intent of his heart, and the father forgave his son when he repented and returned to the father.

Now, let's see how this applies to little children being of the Kingdom.
1. Was the prodigal son a part of his father's kingdom as a little child, as an infant?
2. Was the son lost and dead as a little child?
3. When did the son become lost and dead?
4. When did he become alive again?
5. Was he a part of his father's kingdom while living in sin?
6. When did he become a part of his father's kingdom again after he left?
7. Did returning and repenting show a change of heart?
8. Did returning and repenting make the lost son found; did it make the dead son alive?

 

[EmSw]

I know. That's why I told you that I had answered your question exactly as it was written.
No - I made it very clear that prophecy of the type I was speaking of is a revelation by God as to what has already been predestined to occur.

You really don't understand what predestination is do you? Why then do you critique it so often rather than asking someone who does understand?

Marvin, no offense, but I really don't care to understand Reformed's predestination. I don't care to hear that God predestined man's evil, and that He brings about means to assure man's evil.

You said in another thread that you were once an agnostic. Did God predestine you to be an agnostic? If so, why hasn't this predestination stuck? Why did His predestination for you change? It seems God's predestination is temporary, not permanent. Did He not also predestine you to be a child of wrath? What made God change His mind concerning your condemnation?

To me, this has God with multiple personalities. It's like He doesn't know what He wants to do with you. Who knows, he may change His mind again, and predestine you to be lost sinner again. He may predestine you to be a deceiver and use you as the means to send people to hell. One never knows what God has predestined for them. And on top of that, He could change that predestination to something else. One minute He condemns you to hell and the next He has you set for heaven.

This type of God has more mental problems than Adolph Hitler. You have no idea what God has predestined for you. Yeah, He may predestine you to be a Reformed Calvinist now, but could change His mind and predestine you to be Jehovah's Witness.

It says "of such is the kingdom of God.

So, of children of wrath, is the Kingdom of God. With predestination and its changes, I guess you would have to believe this.

You are correct and such a mind is the direct opposite of the mind of natural men pertaining to believing unto salvation.

One enters the Kingdom of God as they are justified and begin life under the commandments of God. Continued living under His commands is quite another thing.

So the scribes and Pharisees had sovereignty over who enters the Kingdom of God, correct? In other words, they were the ones who justified and allowed into the Kingdom.

Matthew 23:13
But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

While one who is saved will eventually and assuredly live only in obedience to the commandments of God - it is not automatic.

The difference between you and I is that I have faith that the promise to be in the Kingdom throughout eternity will never be reneged on. You believe that failure to live under His commands in perfection or at least up to some arbitrary standard you have set for yourself and others - makes a person no longer a child of God and therefore not assured of living in the Kingdom in perfection eventually without the tendency to disobey.

First of all, let's not use that word 'perfection'. I've never said that. So, let's not use that straw man.

I'm getting that you don't care what grace teaches us; you will do as you please.

Do you not have a standard of righteous Christian living? Isn't this the lifestyle of the wicked? They do not want to live under God's standard of a clean, righteous, and holy life.

No - I am proceeding under the assumption that that is correct for discussion purposes. I believe the scriptures are rather vague about that although I lean toward that assumption.

You only have to reason according to what I've said and not according to what you are representing me as believing and it will seem perfectly reasonable. It's only when you set up a straw man that it becomes unreasonable.

With God changing His predestination, who can know what you believe?

One can not know what is predestined until after it occurs. They may well be among the elect of God. In fact - if the age of accountability is a correct assumption - they may not even need to profess Christ to end up living in the Kingdom of God forever and ever.
Let's get this right shall we? It does not say that the children were in the Kingdom of God it says that of such are the Kingdom of God.

So, you will admit that you have no idea what is God's predestination for you. You may be elect, and you may not be.

Let's see, of Marvin is the Reformed faith. Does this mean you are not in it? Have you not entered the Reformed faith?

I have not said that you lost your salvation. It may well be, however, that you never had it to begin with.

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

Since I have not remained with you and your beliefs, you think I didn't have salvation to begin with.

What kind of assurance is that to one who believes? Pretty shaky theology.

No - absolutely not. But apparently when the shoe is on the other foot you are quite certain in your ruling on the salvation of others who do not live up to the standards of God perfectly or at least up to your arbitrarily reduced standards.

I have never said that you lost your salvation. I have said that it appears to me that you may well have never had it and justified before God through faith.

So, based upon appearances to you, you call me a heretic? Based upon appearances, you think I may well have never had salvation? What a bunch of crock. Did you not know you are judging my heart with these 'appearances' of yours?

So long as you continue to preach a gospel of works I will continue to react to it. If and when you renege and teach that works are a result of salvation and not the means to salvation - I will gladly change my opinion as to your likely status.

If you continue to misrepresent what I say - I will have to cut off this conversation as I have in the past.

So, I have to give up Jesus' plain teachings and follow your teachings in order to be saved? I figured that was your motive all along.

How about you change your beliefs of continuing in evil works will get one to heaven?

p.s. if God has predestined you to be a deceiver, then I have no time for you either.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin, no offense, but I really don't care to understand Reformed's predestination.

You said in another thread that you were once an agnostic. Did God predestine you to be an agnostic? If so, why hasn't this predestination stuck? Why did His predestination for you change? It seems God's predestination is temporary, not permanent. Did He not also predestine you to be a child of wrath? What made God change His mind concerning your condemnation?

You see - this is exactly what I meant.

The questions you ask demonstrate that you haven't the foggiest idea what is meant by predestination. You won't listen to what is in the doctrine of predestination as taught by those who believe in it and yet you go right ahead and comment on it and make a fool of yourself.

Wouldn't it be better to avail yourself of some knowledge about what the doctrine predestination is all about before attempting to critique it?

To me, this has God with multiple personalities. It's like He doesn't know what He wants to do with you. Who knows, he may change His mind again, and predestine you to be lost sinner again. He may predestine you to be a deceiver and use you as the means to send people to hell. One never knows what God has predestined for them. And on top of that, He could change that predestination to something else. One minute He condemns you to hell and the next He has you set for heaven.This type of God has more mental problems than Adolph Hitler.

There's more of your foolishness. Just a few questions asked by you and answered by someone who was familiar with the doctrine would go a long way toward keeping you from making a fool of yourself.

Forgive the "fool" word. It's just that you say the most foolish things sometimes and many in the forum have pointed it out to you before and you will not educate yourself.

So, of children of wrath, is the Kingdom of God.

No - the Kingdom of God is attained and demonstrated through a faith filled and childlike attitude.

So the scribes and Pharisees had sovereignty over who enters the Kingdom of God, correct? In other words, they were the ones who justified and allowed into the Kingdom.

Matthew 23:13
But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Through their teaching others to practice legalism rather than have simple faith for salvation - they hindered others from entering in by faith. This really isn't difficult concept to understand - unless one is of the Parasitical persuasion himself. In that case he would be blinded to the truth being a blind guide just as they were.

First of all, let's not use that word 'perfection'. I've never said that. So, let's not use that straw man.

Marvin Knox said: ↑ ................. You believe that failure to live under His commands in perfection or at least up to some arbitrary standard you have set for yourself and others - makes a person no longer a child of God and therefore not assured of living in the Kingdom in perfection eventually without the tendency to disobey.
I know you can read so I have to think you purposefully misrepresent what I say. I told you before that if you continued to do that we will come to an end in our conversations again.

I'm getting that you don't care what grace teaches us; you will do as you please.

Do you not have a standard of righteous Christian living? Isn't this the lifestyle of the wicked? They do not want to live under God's standard of a clean, righteous, and holy life.

Where on earth would you get that from anything I have ever said. You've made these kinds of charges before against those who do not believe that their security depends on living up to a certain standard.

Of course I have a standard of righteous Christian living. It is the same standard which God sets out for us. It's just that I believe that He who began a good work in me will complete it. You don't believe that it was God who began the good work in you and so you do not believe His promise to bring you through.

With God changing His predestination, who can know what you believe?

A little education about predestination would go a long way toward keeping you from saying these foolish things about the doctrine.

So, you will admit that you have no idea what is God's predestination for you. You may be elect, and you may not be.

"No idea" would be incorrect.

Let's see, of Marvin is the Reformed faith. Does this mean you are not in it? Have you not entered the Reformed faith?

That makes no sense at all. Of course I have entered the Reformed faith. I was the one who told you so or you wouldn't even know what I believed.

Since I have not remained with you and your beliefs, you think I didn't have salvation to begin with. What kind of assurance is that to one who believes? Pretty shaky theology.

No - I believe that you may not have salvation because of your open teachings.

If you would but exercise faith in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as your only hope of eternal salvation and renounce you gospel of works - you could have a firm assurance and not one which only hopes that you will make it through til the end.

So, based upon appearances to you, you call me a heretic? Based upon appearances, you think I may well have never had salvation? What a bunch of crock. Did you not know you are judging my heart with these 'appearances' of yours?

No - clearly and by you own admission I am judging your appearances as related to what you have taught here in the forum.

I sincerely hope that somewhere along the line you trusted Jesus Christ and His work at Calvary as your only hope of salvation. I just haven't been made aware of it. I'm assuming that you are what you appear to be by your own teachings.

I could never be sure about you - nor is it my job to make the final judgment on you. It is my job only to warn you that you are on very shaky ground indeed.

So, I have to give up Jesus' plain teachings and follow your teachings in order to be saved? I figured that was your motive all along.

My motive is to get you to believe all of the scriptures and incorporate them into a systematic and cohesive package so that you will not teach the way of salvation incorrectly.

How about you change your beliefs of continuing in evil works will get one to heaven?

I do not believe that continuing in evil works will "get one to Heaven". Only a childlike trust in the sufficiency of the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf will "get one to Heaven".

To the extent that I do evil works or fail to live up to the standard God has set for me - I will suffer loss - perhaps even eternal loss. But I will not loose my salvation because I fail to meet your standards for starters or God's standards as the ideal.

I sincerely hope that you are saved. Nothing could make me happier.

But you must change your view of what it takes to "get to Heaven" or you will suffer loss in the day of judgement (if indeed my prayer for you is answered and I meet you in Heaven).

 

[Danthemailman]

Thank you Dan.

Little children in these verses are babes and infants. Since faith comes by hearing (understanding) the word of God, how do you propose they hear it? What kind of faith did these infants have? I don't think these infants had any trust in Jesus at that point in their lives. Do you? I believe they trusted their parents for everything.

Could infants even know what philosophies of man are? If you go to a newborn and tell him your philosophies, do think he will understand and believe them?

Hello, I was not implying that infants exercise faith in Christ. As you mentioned, they trust their parents for everything, just as we are to trust in Jesus. This is the point that I believe Jesus was making in regards to becoming like little children. Thanks and God bless.

 

[bling]

So, we can't say a person is clean who is innocent? Okay, have it your way; I won't complain.

I did not say that at all, but when we are told to become “like” little children what does that “like” include?

We cannot uneducated ourselves, we cannot take on the weight of a child, we cannot become physically weak as a child, so what likeness is Christ looking for.

We come humble will to accept pure charity like a child to the Kingdom, but not innocent of sin like a child, but we will be made innocent as a child once God blesses His children in the Kingdom. Christian can be made innocent.

So a little child, of whom is the Kingdom, is not really a part of the Kingdom. Do you consider yourself a part of the Kingdom, or will it be when you finally enter? I take you don't believe in eternal security.

No did not say that: A physical little child is part of the Kingdom, because of His/her innocence, but they did not come to the Kingdom from the sinful world but were always part of the Kingdom and will leave when they become adult sinners.

Since you want to make the prodigal son part of this discussion, we will use that.

It seems you are saying it is what is on the outside of the person, which makes them unclean. By this standard, most poor people who can't afford clean clothes, don't take baths, and smell offensively cannot have a new life in Christ. So, do you believe it is the outside of a person which makes them unclean?

IT IS A PARABLE. Look at all the parables like the Parable of the soils (the hard ground, rocks, weedy soil and good earth are outwardly physical thing standing for Spiritual inwardly attitudes, feelings, dispositions and mindset. With the prodigal son parable outwardly he appears unclean, ragged, weak, smelly and hungry, which stands for what he had become in his sinful state. What would you say the sandals, rob and ring stand for in the Kingdom here on earth given to us by God and when do we get them? Does it make him more presentable? The master of the wedding feast provide the guest with fancy attire after they got to the feast, so is this similar to what the father was doing and what do these wedding garments spiritually symbolize?

I believe it is the heart which is unclean, that is, man's motives and intentions. For out of the heart, proceed sins of every kind. It was the son's intent to quit living in sin and return to the father. Without this intent, he would have never returned to the father.

I think you are giving the son way to much credit and scripture does not give that as the reason: Luke 15: 17…‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.

Do you think the young son would have said this if he was back where he was with lots of money sinning big time? The sinful life did not bring him to his senses and want to quit and it does not cause many to quit, but the consequences of that life style, being brought down, and having to really stop and think helps them see where they are going. Sin is pleasurable for a season and many do not want to give up that pleasure, but in time they are brought to their senses and give up on the sinful way because of the damage it does.

I think the last thing the son wanted to do was go to his father and brother, but he had reached that point of being willing to do the last thing possible, to live and have some kind of a life. There are those that will not and do not wimp out like he did.

Again, you are making the cleansing of the outside of man as of utmost importance. The son had a change of heart, he realized he had sinned against his father. The only way to reconcile this, was to come to his senses, return to the father and repent for forgiveness. Here are his words - “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.”

This is a change of heart in the son. It mattered not what he wore nor what he smelled like. God looks upon the heart, not on outwardly matters.

I see all mature adults with the God given ability to quit, give up and surrender, without having to have a heart change. It is always a choice option for them, but people do not want to be quitters.

Do you really think it takes a “change of heart” for anyone to realize they have done stuff in the past that has hurt others (sinned)?

The son did not have a sudden revelation he sinned against the father, he knew that from the beginning.

The order in the parable has obvious big time sinning against the father, leading a very sinful life, experiencing the consequences of that sinful life, coming to his senses and choosing to go his father willing to humbly accept pure charity from his father and confess is wrong doing.

There is no thought of reconciling with the father through confessing (he is not thinking about being placed back in the son position in the family), the father by all rights should throw this son out. The job as a servant is totally undeserved by the son’s past actions (how good of a work do you think he was prior to leaving)?

By returning the father can restore the son, but that is not part of the son’s reason for returning.

I know over time your heart can become so hard you do not care, but initially everyone does stuff that hurts others and this burdens their conscience.

You call it fessing up; I call it repentance. The son became innocent when he changed the intent of his heart, and the father forgave his son when he repented and returned to the father.

How can you become innocent before you are forgiven?

You can become willing to humbly accept pure charity. Like children easily do, but that does not automatically make you innocent until the forgiveness is actually accepted.

Now, let's see how this applies to little children being of the Kingdom.
1. Was the prodigal son a part of his father's kingdom as a little child, as an infant?

OK

2. Was the son lost and dead as a little child?

No that seemed to come with adulthood.

3. When did the son become lost and dead?

When he sinned against the Father at least by the time he virtually said: “I wish you were dead so I can have my inheritance”.

4. When did he become alive again?

When the father hugged him.

5. Was he a part of his father's kingdom while living in sin?

NO

6. When did he become a part of his father's kingdom again after he left?

Never only on getting back with the father.

7. Did returning and repenting show a change of heart?

I think that part of his heart was always there just needing the cultivation of being forced to his senses by the pigsty.

8. Did returning and repenting make the lost son found; did it make the dead son alive?

The Love of the father made the son alive, if the son had repented and returned to a “normal” father and not one who Loves unconditionally, he would still be dead.

 

[EmSw]

I did not say that at all, but when we are told to become “like” little children what does that “like” include?

We cannot uneducated ourselves, we cannot take on the weight of a child, we cannot become physically weak as a child, so what likeness is Christ looking for.

We come humble will to accept pure charity like a child to the Kingdom, but not innocent of sin like a child, but we will be made innocent as a child once God blesses His children in the Kingdom. Christian can be made innocent.

What does it mean to be like children? I believe Jesus answered that.

Matthew 18:3
and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

We are never told to accept His love. We are told to be converted and become like children. I believe the key word is 'converted'. We need to see what converted is. Strong's says this about converted -

1. to turn, turn around
   
   
2. to turn one's self (i.e. to turn the back to one
   
   1. of one who no longer cares for another)
      
      
   2. metaph. to turn one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind
      

Does this apply to the prodigal son? Notice it means to turn one's self from one's course of conduct. Did the son do this? Most definitely yes. Did the son turn around? Yes. Did the son change his mind? Yes. Of course to change one's mind is to repent of his evil.

Accepting God's love does not mean one is converted. One must no longer care for his evil life. We can see much about turning from evil in the OT.

Ezekiel 3:19
Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity;

Ezekiel 3:20
Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Ezekiel 14:6
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Repent and turn away from your idols and turn your faces away from all your abominations.

Ezekiel 18:21
“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:27
Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

Ezekiel 18:28
Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Isaiah 1:4
Alas, sinful nation, People weighed down with iniquity, Offspring of evildoers, Sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned the Lord, They have despised the Holy One of Israel, They have turned away from Him.

Jeremiah 18:11
So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.

Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.

Jeremiah 36:3
Perhaps the house of Judah will hear all the calamity which I plan to bring on them, in order that every man will turn from his evil way; then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin.

I will stop with this. But look how many times we are admonished to turn from our evil, wickedness, and abominations. It is this turning by which we are converted. The prodigal son did turn from his wickedness, and turn back to his father. It was while he was living in wickedness that he was dead. He became alive when he turned from his evil and turned back to the father.

 

[bling]

What does it mean to be like children? I believe Jesus answered that.

Matthew 18:3
and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

We are never told to accept His love. We are told to be converted and become like children. I believe the key word is 'converted'. We need to see what converted is. Strong's says this about converted -

1. to turn, turn around
   
   
2. to turn one's self (i.e. to turn the back to one
   1. of one who no longer cares for another)
      
      
   2. metaph. to turn one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind

Does this apply to the prodigal son? Notice it means to turn one's self from one's course of conduct. Did the son do this? Most definitely yes. Did the son turn around? Yes. Did the son change his mind? Yes. Of course to change one's mind is to repent of his evil.

Accepting God's love does not mean one is converted. One must no longer care for his evil life. We can see much about turning from evil in the OT.

Ezekiel 3:19
Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity;

Ezekiel 3:20
Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Ezekiel 14:6
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Repent and turn away from your idols and turn your faces away from all your abominations.

Ezekiel 18:21
“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:27
Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

Ezekiel 18:28
Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Isaiah 1:4
Alas, sinful nation, People weighed down with iniquity, Offspring of evildoers, Sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned the Lord, They have despised the Holy One of Israel, They have turned away from Him.

Jeremiah 18:11
So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.

Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.

Jeremiah 36:3
Perhaps the house of Judah will hear all the calamity which I plan to bring on them, in order that every man will turn from his evil way; then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin.

I will stop with this. But look how many times we are admonished to turn from our evil, wickedness, and abominations. It is this turning by which we are converted. The prodigal son did turn from his wickedness, and turn back to his father. It was while he was living in wickedness that he was dead. He became alive when he turned from his evil and turned back to the father.

I have no issue with converting meaning turning from going one way to another way.

The prodigal son did that, but that does not mean going from sinning to being righteous (we do not have the power within us to do that).

Yet a person can go from refusing/rejecting God’s help/charity/love to being willing to humbly accept God’s love/charity, I would call that a huge change/turning/conversion/repentance.

For one to get to the point of “no longer caring for evil” takes the indwelling Holy Spirit who comes after the person is inside the Kingdom and after God’s love has been accepted.

 

[bling]

What does it mean to be like children? I believe Jesus answered that.

Matthew 18:3
and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

We are never told to accept His love. We are told to be converted and become like children. I believe the key word is 'converted'. We need to see what converted is. Strong's says this about converted -

1. to turn, turn around
   
   
2. to turn one's self (i.e. to turn the back to one
   1. of one who no longer cares for another)
      
      
   2. metaph. to turn one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind

Does this apply to the prodigal son? Notice it means to turn one's self from one's course of conduct. Did the son do this? Most definitely yes. Did the son turn around? Yes. Did the son change his mind? Yes. Of course to change one's mind is to repent of his evil.

Accepting God's love does not mean one is converted. One must no longer care for his evil life. We can see much about turning from evil in the OT.

Ezekiel 3:19
Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity;

Ezekiel 3:20
Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Ezekiel 14:6
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Repent and turn away from your idols and turn your faces away from all your abominations.

Ezekiel 18:21
“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:27
Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

Ezekiel 18:28
Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Isaiah 1:4
Alas, sinful nation, People weighed down with iniquity, Offspring of evildoers, Sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned the Lord, They have despised the Holy One of Israel, They have turned away from Him.

Jeremiah 18:11
So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.

Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.

Jeremiah 36:3
Perhaps the house of Judah will hear all the calamity which I plan to bring on them, in order that every man will turn from his evil way; then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin.

I will stop with this. But look how many times we are admonished to turn from our evil, wickedness, and abominations. It is this turning by which we are converted. The prodigal son did turn from his wickedness, and turn back to his father. It was while he was living in wickedness that he was dead. He became alive when he turned from his evil and turned back to the father.

I have no issue with converting meaning turning from going one way to another way.

The prodigal son did that, but that does not mean going from sinning to being righteous (we do not have the power within us to do that).

Yet a person can go from refusing/rejecting God’s help/charity/love to being willing to humbly accept God’s love/charity, I would call that a huge change/turning/conversion/repentance.

For one to get to the point of “no longer caring for evil” takes the indwelling Holy Spirit who comes after the person is inside the Kingdom and after God’s love has been accepted.

 

[EmSw]

I have no issue with converting meaning turning from going one way to another way.

The prodigal son did that, but that does not mean going from sinning to being righteous (we do not have the power within us to do that).

Sure a man can practice righteousness so he will not die.

Ezekiel 18
21 But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

Ezekiel 18:27
Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

Ezekiel 33
14 But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, 15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

1 John 2:29

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.


1 John 3:7
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

bling, you need to look at what you are saying. John says don't let anyone deceive you; the one who practices righteousness IS righteous. Also, those born of Him practice righteousness.

Yet a person can go from refusing/rejecting God’s help/charity/love to being willing to humbly accept God’s love/charity, I would call that a huge change/turning/conversion/repentance.

For one to get to the point of “no longer caring for evil” takes the indwelling Holy Spirit who comes after the person is inside the Kingdom and after God’s love has been accepted.

You need to read the Ezekiel passages again, and see that it is talking about wicked people.

 

[bling]

duplicate

 

[bling]

Sure a man can practice righteousness so he will not die.

Ezekiel 18
21 But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

Ezekiel 18:27
Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

Ezekiel 33
14 But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, 15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

1 John 2:29

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.


1 John 3:7
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

bling, you need to look at what you are saying. John says don't let anyone deceive you; the one who practices righteousness IS righteous. Also, those born of Him practice righteousness.



You need to read the Ezekiel passages again, and see that it is talking about wicked people.

Ezekiel is talking to Jews who have the Old Law.

Ezekiel in these verses does not tell you how you keep from sinning, but we all know it takes more than just our personal ability and we have to humbly submit ourselves to God for that help and be willing to accept God’s help.

Christians who have the indwelling Holy Spirit are also told to quit sinning but they have the power already.

You have to show me that the sequence of events starts with being righteous.

 

[EmSw]

Ezekiel is talking to Jews who have the Old Law.

Ezekiel in these verses does not tell you how you keep from sinning, but we all know it takes more than just our personal ability and we have to humbly submit ourselves to God for that help and be willing to accept God’s help.

Christians who have the indwelling Holy Spirit are also told to quit sinning but they have the power already.

You have to show me that the sequence of events starts with being righteous.

Isn't the prodigal son under the 'old' law?

Does anyone really need to tell anyone else how to stop sinning? Do you need to be told how to stop lying? Do you need to be told how to quit committing adultery? Do you not have the God-given ability to know these things?

Under the OT, Jesus told the adulterous woman to sin no more. Did He need to tell her how?

Since I presume you aren't a Jew, you might as well throw Ezekiel out of your Bible. You might as well throw all the books of the OT out while you're at it. You might as well throw the words of Jesus out also, since He came to the house of Israel under the 'old' law.

 

[bling]

Isn't the prodigal son under the 'old' law?

yes

Does anyone really need to tell anyone else how to stop sinning? Do you need to be told how to stop lying? Do you need to be told how to quit committing adultery? Do you not have the God-given ability to know these things?

Telling sinful people they are sinning even if they want to stop sinning does not give them the power to keep from sinning, Paul read and came to an understanding of coveting in Ro. 7: 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.[/QUOTE]

You can do nothing without worthy like keep from sinning without Godly type Love and she automatically got that Love by accepting the forgiveness as pure charity: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, but prior to accepting this huge forgiveness she lacked the power not to sin again.

Under the OT, Jesus told the adulterous woman to sin no more. Did He need to tell her how?

Since I presume you aren't a Jew, you might as well throw Ezekiel out of your Bible. You might as well throw all the books of the OT out while you're at it. You might as well throw the words of Jesus out also, since He came to the house of Israel under the 'old' law.

God is totally just/fair, so God justly/fairly judges the hearts of people and God knows what they have been given and what they did with what they were given. God justly and fairly Loves everyone equally.

 

[EmSw]

yes
Telling sinful people they are sinning even if they want to stop sinning does not give them the power to keep from sinning, Paul read and came to an understanding of coveting in Ro. 7: 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Are you saying Paul did not know what coveting was without the law? I'm not Jewish, and never lived under the law, but I can tell you, I knew what murder, lying, adultery, covetousness, and stealing was without the law. Was I alive without the law? No way!

When I learned of the law, did it bring death to me? No way! It showed me the way to life. Sin didn't deceive me through the law, the law showed me my sin, and how to defeat it. If sin deceives us by the law, then Jesus was guilty of deceiving us by telling to keep His commandments.

You can do nothing without worthy like keep from sinning without Godly type Love and she automatically got that Love by accepting the forgiveness as pure charity: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, but prior to accepting this huge forgiveness she lacked the power not to sin again.

Did Elizabeth and Mary not have the power to keep from fornication and adultery? It's a good thing Mary had the power to keep from fornicating, or else Jesus would have been born of a fornicator. Surely you don't think the law led Mary to actually commit fornication, do you?

God is totally just/fair, so God justly/fairly judges the hearts of people and God knows what they have been given and what they did with what they were given. God justly and fairly Loves everyone equally.

Hopefully when you read the greatest commandment of the law, you won't hate God. The same thing with murder, lying, and stealing.

 

[bling]

When I learned of the law, did it bring death to me? No way! It showed me the way to life. Sin didn't deceive me through the law, the law showed me my sin, and how to defeat it. If sin deceives us by the law, then Jesus was guilty of deceiving us by telling to keep His commandments.

You are right: “the law showed me my sin”, but you are wrong to say: “and how to defeat it”. How does the Law help you defeat the desire to covet any and all things? What laws of men fault your thoughts? Paul could obey the first 9 of the 10 commandments, but coveting has to do with your thinking, which without Godly type Love, people cannot completely control and there are tons of ways to covet.

The Law allows us to realize how much God has forgiven us of if we accept His forgiveness so: “…he that is forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt (created by sin) will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

Did Elizabeth and Mary not have the power to keep from fornication and adultery? It's a good thing Mary had the power to keep from fornicating, or else Jesus would have been born of a fornicator. Surely you don't think the law led Mary to actually commit fornication, do you?

Again, you can pretty obey the first 9 commands but not the 10th command.

Hopefully when you read the greatest commandment of the law, you won't hate God. The same thing with murder, lying, and stealing.

What?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Any words I have predestined to put forth, in no way indicate I am the cause of such content, nor am I responsible for the sum of the attributes or notions comprised in any given conception. Nor is the surety of the fact taken away, but rather established.

I've asked you before. But I'll ask you again here.

Would you please explain for us the meaning of this silly tag you include each time along with your identification?

Thanks.