The Kingdom and Little Children

[EmSw]

Mark 10
13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Here we have wonderful truths about Jesus and little children. With these truths, we find comforting words about little children and Jesus' love for them.

What do you think of these little children?

1. Were they lost or saved?
2. Were they children of wrath or children of the Kingdom?
3. Were they goats or sheep?
4. Were they children of the devil or children of God?

 

[Adstar]

They where innocent...

Therefore at that moment of time they did not have the knowledge of good and evil.. Thus they where acceptable to God.. They did not need saving because they where not lost.. Adam and Eve where acceptable to God for as long as they did not obtain the knowledge of good and evil from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.. Once they did come to obtain the knowledge of good and evil they became unacceptable and thus needed to be saved..

 

[Halbhh]

1 -- They are still in the state of personal innocence, and of grace also by Christ's own words here, not having yet chosen with understanding to intentionally commit sin, because they don't yet have knowledge.

As Paul wrote (one verse of at least 2 or more that apply):
"To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law." (Romans 5, v13)

They would have to learn more fully and well knowledge about good and evil, the law, in order to be able to break the law. Without that knowledge and ability to apply it (being old enough to really choose their actions), they are still in innocence.

But also there is more than only personal innocence.

They also have a crucial and absolutely required personal quality, without which even believers cannot enter the Kingdom --

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."


Unless you or I can become humble like they are, we cannot enter the Kingdom!

There isn't grace to save us until we become humble.

 

[EmSw]

They where innocent...

Therefore at that moment of time they did not have the knowledge of good and evil.. Thus they where acceptable to God.. They did not need saving because they where not lost.. Adam and Eve where acceptable to God for as long as they did not obtain the knowledge of good and evil from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.. Once they did come to obtain the knowledge of good and evil they became unacceptable and thus needed to be saved..

Thank you for your answer. It is enlightening and truthful.

 

[EmSw]

1 -- They are still in the state of personal innocence, and of grace also by Christ's own words here, not having yet chosen with understanding to intentionally commit sin, because they don't yet have knowledge.

As Paul wrote (one verse of at least 2 or more that apply):
"To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law." (Romans 5, v13)

They would have to learn more fully and well knowledge about good and evil, the law, in order to be able to break the law. Without that knowledge and ability to apply it (being old enough to really choose their actions), they are still in innocence.

But also there is more than only personal innocence.

They also have a crucial and absolutely required personal quality, without which even believers cannot enter the Kingdom --

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."


Unless you or I can become humble like they are, we cannot enter the Kingdom!

There isn't grace to save us without our being humble.

As with Adstar, you have spoken the truth. Innocence and humility are essential.

 

[inquiring mind]

Wonderful posts... yes, I believe the children are innocent before God.

 

[EmSw]

Thanks for the posts from all of you. Also, I would like to hear what 'Calvinists' believe on this. I wonder if they think these little children were lost or saved.

 

[EmSw]

I wonder if I change the wording, will 'Calvinists' attempt to answer?

Do you think little children were predestined to be lost or saved?

 

[EmSw]

It seems our Calvinist friends have no desire to answer any of these questions. And that's okay. It's best to not answer if you don't know.

 

[bling]

Mark 10
13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Here we have wonderful truths about Jesus and little children. With these truths, we find comforting words about little children and Jesus' love for them.

What do you think of these little children?

1. Were they lost or saved?
2. Were they children of wrath or children of the Kingdom?
3. Were they goats or sheep?
4. Were they children of the devil or children of God?

First off:

1. They are not lost so they do not need saving but are in a safe condition until they reach the age of accountability.
   
   
2. They are children and I guess can be described as kingdom children.
   
   
3. Again, they are the Lambs.
   
   
4. God.
   

When Christ says: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” I do not equate that with the innocence of the child since all mature adults have sinned. All nonbelieving mature adults have within themselves a potential child of God. The child within them can easily humble accept pure charity and that is what God is offering them, while an adult will do almost anything to avoid humbling himself to the point of accepting pure charity.

Look at the Prodigal son story and tell me: Did the young man who virtually told his father: “I wish you were dead”, wasted the gifts from his father, and did all kind of disgraceful things to his family return to his father or did a different humble child accepting of his father’s charity go to the father?

 

[EmSw]

First off:

1. They are not lost so they do not need saving but are in a safe condition until they reach the age of accountability.
   
   
2. They are children and I guess can be described as kingdom children.
   
   
3. Again, they are the Lambs.
   
   
4. God.

When Christ says: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” I do not equate that with the innocence of the child since all mature adults have sinned. All nonbelieving mature adults have within themselves a potential child of God. The child within them can easily humble accept pure charity and that is what God is offering them, while an adult will do almost anything to avoid humbling himself to the point of accepting pure charity.

Look at the Prodigal son story and tell me: Did the young man who virtually told his father: “I wish you were dead”, wasted the gifts from his father, and did all kind of disgraceful things to his family return to his father or did a different humble child accepting of his father’s charity go to the father?

Thank you bling. I would like to say if you look into the times 'innocent' is used, you will find there were innocent people in the OT. BibleGateway - : innocent

To answer your question, I would say a sorrowful, dead son returned.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I wonder if I change the wording, will 'Calvinists' attempt to answer? Do you think little children were predestined to be lost or saved?

I'm not a full on 5-point Calvinist. But I am, as they say, Reformed in my theology. So I believe I can answer accurately for those who do call themselves Calvinists.

Yes.

 

[EmSw]

I'm not a full on 5-point Calvinist. But I am, as they say, Reformed in my theology. So I believe I can answer accurately for those who do call themselves Calvinists.

Yes.

Thank you Marvin, but it's not a 'yes' or 'no' question. It's an 'either' 'or' question.

Do you think the little children of whom Jesus spoke were children of wrath or children of the kingdom?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Thank you Marvin, but it's not a 'yes' or 'no' question. It's an 'either' 'or' question. Do you think the little children of whom Jesus spoke were children of wrath or children of the kingdom?

Oh excuse me - I thought you had asked, "Do you think little children were predestined to be lost or saved?"

Based on hearing that (which you actually did ask) I thought about saying also that you obviously don't understand predestination since no one except God can know what is predestined to happen until after it happens. That is of course unless God informs us through prophecy.

My answer is that it doesn't matter what I think since the scriptures are silent on the matter.

The Lord does, however, show us that having the open and accepting attitude of a little child is what it takes to enter the Kingdom of God.

But - assuming that there is such a thing as an age of accountability and that those who die before becoming accountable will be among the elect of God - the Word is clear that the majority of the elect - those who pass the age of accountability - were "children of wrath even as the rest" before they were born again and professed faith in the sacrifice of Christ as their only hope of salvation.

It's not too late for you to do the same and escape being the child of wrath you appear to be in light of the false gospel you have embraced and preach.

If you will but humble yourself and renounce your false gospel of works salvation - you can then be assured that you have always been one of God's elect.

 

[bling]

Thank you bling. I would like to say if you look into the times 'innocent' is used, you will find there were innocent people in the OT. BibleGateway - : innocent

To answer your question, I would say a sorrowful, dead son returned.

Yes, I fully agree children are innocent, but I do not see mature adults coming to God "innocent", but I do see them coming as little children very willing to accept pure charity from their Father.

I would say on the back of the child coming to the Father there is a dead sinful adult which needs to be discarded. There is a rebirth which takes place.

 

[EmSw]

Yes, I fully agree children are innocent, but I do not see mature adults coming to God "innocent", but I do see them coming as little children very willing to accept pure charity from their Father.

I would say on the back of the child coming to the Father there is a dead sinful adult which needs to be discarded. There is a rebirth which takes place.

What would be 'coming to God innocent'? Strong's says this -

1. clean, free from, exempt, clear, innocent
   
   1. free from guilt, clean, innocent
      
      
   2. free from punishment
      
      
   3. free or exempt from obligations
      

This is practically the same thing as forgiven, which Strong's defines this way -

1. release from bondage or imprisonment
   
   
2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
   

If someone is free from obligations, released from imprisonment, pardoned of sins, and remitted of the penalty, do you not think they are innocent? Therefore, repentance has everything to do with coming to God. God said He will not justify the wicked.

Did the prodigal son not cleanse himself of his filth before coming to the father? Or, did he return to the pig pens after coming to the father? Did the father forgive the son?

 

[Danthemailman]

This is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own. Jesus here is pointing to the need to have the same type of faith that little children exhibit. The most trusting people in the world are children. Children have not acquired the obstructions to faith that often come with advanced education and exposure to the philosophies of men. Christ calls us to have the same kind of trust and dependence that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in obtaining salvation on their own. We are 100% dependent on Jesus to save us.

 

[EmSw]

Oh excuse me - I thought you had asked, "Do you think little children were predestined to be lost or saved?"

No problem.

Based on hearing that (which you actually did ask) I thought about saying also that you obviously don't understand predestination since no one except God can know what is predestined to happen until after it happens. That is of course unless God informs us through prophecy.

Well, I don't understand unicorns, flying dragons, nor God changing.

Would you say prophecy is a form of predestination?

My answer is that it doesn't matter what I think since the scriptures are silent on the matter.

But Marvin, I gave I did provide Jesus' own words which say of little children is the kingdom of God.

Mark 10
13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

The Lord does, however, show us that having the open and accepting attitude of a little child is what it takes to enter the Kingdom of God.

If I'm not mistaken, you are saying it takes an open and accepting attitude to be saved. If I'm mistaken, please correct me. Or, do you think entering the Kingdom is different than salvation?

But - assuming that there is such a thing as an age of accountability and that those who die before becoming accountable will be among the elect of God - the Word is clear that the majority of the elect - those who pass the age of accountability - were "children of wrath even as the rest" before they were born again and professed faith in the sacrifice of Christ as their only hope of salvation.

You assume there might be an age of accountability, and assume they will be among God's elect, right?

So, those little children, of such is the kingdom of God, are also children of wrath? This doesn't sound reasonable to me, but if reason needs to go, then we can entertain your theory.

Also, if one has to profess faith in Christ's sacrifice as their only hope of salvation, then it logically concludes that these children of the kingdom were doomed.

The word used for little children is also given as babes, infants, unborn child, and newborn child. Is it within your belief that these infants, as children of wrath and not professing as above, were headed to hell, even though they were children of the Kingdom?

It's not too late for you to do the same and escape being the child of wrath you appear to be in light of the false gospel you have embraced and preach.

If you will but humble yourself and renounce your false gospel of works salvation - you can then be assured that you have always been one of God's elect.

Marvin, here is the problem of eternal security - I was born in a Christian home, learned of Jesus and His love ever since I could talk. I never hated God, nor turned my back on him. I was taught everything about believing Him for salvation, and believed as you do now. I attended Lutheran, Baptist, and Assembly of God churches all my life. I did and believed all the things you are trying to get me to do above.

How is it you say I lost my salvation now? Does believing something different cause one to lose his salvation? Just because I changed my views on some strongly held beliefs, mean I am not saved now?

Please tell me how I lost my salvation? Was my salvation not really secure? Does disagreeing with your beliefs cause me to lose my salvation? I don't understand, please show me where I lost my salvation?

If I did lose it, then you are wrong and I am right. If I didn't lose it, then please stop reacting as if I did.

 

[EmSw]

This is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own. Jesus here is pointing to the need to have the same type of faith that little children exhibit. The most trusting people in the world are children. Children have not acquired the obstructions to faith that often come with advanced education and exposure to the philosophies of men. Christ calls us to have the same kind of trust and dependence that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in obtaining salvation on their own. We are 100% dependent on Jesus to save us.

Thank you Dan.

Little children in these verses are babes and infants. Since faith comes by hearing (understanding) the word of God, how do you propose they hear it? What kind of faith did these infants have? I don't think these infants had any trust in Jesus at that point in their lives. Do you? I believe they trusted their parents for everything.

Could infants even know what philosophies of man are? If you go to a newborn and tell him your philosophies, do think he will understand and believe them?

 

[bling]

What would be 'coming to God innocent'? Strong's says this -

1. clean, free from, exempt, clear, innocent
   1. free from guilt, clean, innocent
      
      
   2. free from punishment
      
      
   3. free or exempt from obligations

This is practically the same thing as forgiven, which Strong's defines this way -

1. release from bondage or imprisonment
   
   
2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

1. 
   
   First off: Even good Bible dictionaries are not the final word on how a verse is interpreted in scripture, the Bible can interpret be used to understand other verses.
   

If someone is free from obligations, released from imprisonment, pardoned of sins, and remitted of the penalty, do you not think they are innocent? Therefore, repentance has everything to do with coming to God. God said He will not justify the wicked.

All that happens after they enter the Kingdom and not going to the Kingdom and not when the are just entering the Kingdom.

Did the prodigal son not cleanse himself of his filth before coming to the father? Or, did he return to the pig pens after coming to the father? Did the father forgive the son?

The son still looks, smells, deserves the pigsty employment just prior to contacting the father. The contact with the father is what gives him a new life (this can happen for the sinner today at the moment of his repenting turning to God; who is at his elbow).

There is nothing the young son did “worthy, honorable, deserving or Righteous” (like cleansing himself) prior to contacting the father. The young son wimped out, refused to pay the piper, and was unwilling to take the punishment he fully dissevered (starving to death in the pigsty). He selfishly wanted just some kind of life and live, to the point of being willing to disturb his wonderful father and older brother further with his stinky presence.

The son was willing to fess up to the truth about himself and what he did (this was obvious to everyone) and we can always tell the truth and was willing to humbly accept the father’s charity (like a child), so when did the son make himself innocent or did the father give the son a start over with forgiveness at the son’s return?