LDS The Keystone

[Rescued One]

The Book of Mormon is said to be the keystone of the LDS religion. This passage is important.

2 Nephi 26
20 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor.

21 And there are many churches built up which cause envyings, and strifes, and malice.

22 And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever.

Those verses are official teachings. I'm looking for opinions from Mormons. In the absence of replies from Mormons, others should join in.

 

[Anto9us]

While waiting for Mormons to reply, I would like to address a point. To me, as I read through 1 and 2 Nephi, then into Mosiah (this is all I have read of BOM to date) but I left off with it; got disgusted as it were, because so MUCH was copied word-for-word from the real Bible -- and set in the mouths of prophets NOT in the Bible, said to live around 400 BC...

In the case of Isaiah, the "most-plagiarized" of the real prophets, credit was given to Isaiah by these made-up prophets allegedly writing a couple centuries after Isaiah;

however -- and this is why I consider BOM a total HOAX and quit reading it -- many sentences were taken WORD FOR WORD from NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLES (TRUE plagiarism); and set in the mouths of these "fake prophets" allegedly living four centuries before Christ.

I concluded: Joseph Smith was truly familiar with the King James Bible, made up his own scriptures, inserting verbatim REAL BIBLE sentences, and except for case of Isaiah mentioned earlier, gives no credit for the true source -- he planted many verbatim NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLE passages in the works of the made-up prophets who allegedly lived centuries before the New Testament.

I found it absurd and outrageous -- "another testament of Jesus Christ" -- you got THAT right !!

 

[withwonderingawe]

While waiting for Mormons to reply, I would like to address a point. To me, as I read through 1 and 2 Nephi, then into Mosiah (this is all I have read of BOM to date) but I left off with it; got disgusted as it were, because so MUCH was copied word-for-word from the real Bible -- and set in the mouths of prophets NOT in the Bible, said to live around 400 BC...

In the case of Isaiah, the "most-plagiarized" of the real prophets, credit was given to Isaiah by these made-up prophets allegedly writing a couple centuries after Isaiah;

however -- and this is why I consider BOM a total HOAX and quit reading it -- many sentences were taken WORD FOR WORD from NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLES (TRUE plagiarism); and set in the mouths of these "fake prophets" allegedly living four centuries before Christ.

I concluded: Joseph Smith was truly familiar with the King James Bible, made up his own scriptures, inserting verbatim REAL BIBLE sentences, and except for case of Isaiah mentioned earlier, gives no credit for the true source -- he planted many verbatim NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLE passages in the works of the made-up prophets who allegedly lived centuries before the New Testament.

I found it absurd and outrageous -- "another testament of Jesus Christ" -- you got THAT right !!

So you think God should teach a different gospel?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Those verses are official teachings.

?

Have many churches been built up " that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor" ?

Yes

http://www.therichest.com/expensive...naire-pastors-and-their-celebrity-lifestyles/

 

[withwonderingawe]

While waiting for Mormons to reply, I would like to address a point. To me, as I read through 1 and 2 Nephi, then into Mosiah (this is all I have read of BOM to date) but I left off with it; got disgusted as it were, because so MUCH was copied word-for-word from the real Bible -- and set in the mouths of prophets NOT in the Bible, said to live around 400 BC...

In the case of Isaiah, the "most-plagiarized" of the real prophets, credit was given to Isaiah by these made-up prophets allegedly writing a couple centuries after Isaiah;

however -- and this is why I consider BOM a total HOAX and quit reading it -- many sentences were taken WORD FOR WORD from NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLES (TRUE plagiarism); and set in the mouths of these "fake prophets" allegedly living four centuries before Christ.

I concluded: Joseph Smith was truly familiar with the King James Bible, made up his own scriptures, inserting verbatim REAL BIBLE sentences, and except for case of Isaiah mentioned earlier, gives no credit for the true source -- he planted many verbatim NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLE passages in the works of the made-up prophets who allegedly lived centuries before the New Testament.

I found it absurd and outrageous -- "another testament of Jesus Christ" -- you got THAT right !!

Isaiah lived between 740-681 BC. Lehi might have even known him, they had his writings because they had scriptures they took with them. Nephi quotes him a lot and has a great understanding of what he is saying. You aught to take the time to learn.

 

[Jane_Doe]

While waiting for Mormons to reply, I would like to address a point. To me, as I read through 1 and 2 Nephi, then into Mosiah (this is all I have read of BOM to date) but I left off with it; got disgusted as it were, because so MUCH was copied word-for-word from the real Bible -- and set in the mouths of prophets NOT in the Bible, said to live around 400 BC...

I'm confused by your point here. Are you likewise disgusted at the NT because Matthew, Mark, and Luke for being so similar? Or does NT people quoting likewise quoting OT prophets disgust you?

In the case of Isaiah, the "most-plagiarized" of the real prophets, credit was given to Isaiah by these made-up prophets allegedly writing a couple centuries after Isaiah;

Do realize that Nephi had a copy of Isaiah? That he's quoting from there?

however -- and this is why I consider BOM a total HOAX and quit reading it -- many sentences were taken WORD FOR WORD from NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLES (TRUE plagiarism); and set in the mouths of these "fake prophets" allegedly living four centuries before Christ.

???? Because God can't tell two groups of people the same unchanging Truths?

 

[Anto9us]

Look, I said "Isaiah was given credit" for the repeated chapters from his book, ok?

I guess I will dig up some references if I can of verbatim sentences from the New Testament epistles in the mouth of the Mormon prophets; sorry, I just can't accept that God would give something straight out of a letter of Paul to a Mormon prophet centuries before Christ came.

Sure, there are Old Testament biblical prophets who made predictions of Christ, but this is different, this is too much. More later.

 

[Rescued One]

2 Nephi 26
20 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor.

Lumping all non-Mormons together is wrong. "...and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor," and this is not true of Christians.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

God said in 2 Timothy 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Ironhold]

Look, I said "Isaiah was given credit" for the repeated chapters from his book, ok?

I guess I will dig up some references if I can of verbatim sentences from the New Testament epistles in the mouth of the Mormon prophets; sorry, I just can't accept that God would give something straight out of a letter of Paul to a Mormon prophet centuries before Christ came.

Sure, there are Old Testament biblical prophets who made predictions of Christ, but this is different, this is too much. More later.

You do realize that portions of the Book of Mormon take place during and after the time of Christ, right?

And that Christ visits as well?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Look, I said "Isaiah was given credit" for the repeated chapters from his book, ok?

I guess I will dig up some references if I can of verbatim sentences from the New Testament epistles in the mouth of the Mormon prophets; sorry, I just can't accept that God would give something straight out of a letter of Paul to a Mormon prophet centuries before Christ came.

Sure, there are Old Testament biblical prophets who made predictions of Christ, but this is different, this is too much. More later.

I personally have no problem with the idea the God came tell two people the same unchaining Truth.

 

[Rescued One]

A few examples mentioned by Anto9us:

Matthew 3
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Alma 5
52 And again I say unto you, the Spirit saith: Behold, the ax is laid at the root of the tree; therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire, yea, a fire which cannot be consumed, even an unquenchable fire. Behold, and remember, the Holy One hath spoken it.

and:

1 Corinthians 15
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Mosiah 16
10 Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—

Joseph Smith's grandfather Asael Smith was a Universalist. I imagine the family had a lot of discussions about religion.

"When Asael’s third child, Joseph, married and relocated to New York, he continued to share his Universalist beliefs with his eleven children. As a result, Joseph Jr., the founder of Mormonism, was thoroughly imbued with the precepts of Universalism from his birth in December 1805 to his teenage years."
History6

 

[Rescued One]

?

Have many churches been built up " that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor" ?

Yes

http://www.therichest.com/expensive...naire-pastors-and-their-celebrity-lifestyles/

So what? They aren't Christians.

 

[Jane_Doe]

So what? They aren't Christians.

Ah, the old "no true Scotsman" defense.

 

[Anto9us]

You do realize that portions of the Book of Mormon take place during and after the time of Christ, right?

And that Christ visits as well?

What I was addressing, Ironhold, was that in portions allegedly written well before the time of Christ were found VERBATIM PHRASES from New Testament Epistles, as the 1 Cor 15 example Phoebe Ann gave -- but I will look for more, it struck me that there were SEVERAL just in 1 and 2 Nephi and Mosiah

 

[Rescued One]

What I was addressing, Ironhold, was that in portions allegedly written well before the time of Christ were found VERBATIM PHRASES from New Testament Epistles, as the 1 Cor 15 example Phoebe Ann gave -- but I will look for more, it struck me that there were SEVERAL just in 1 and 2 Nephi and Mosiah

Something I pointed out in another thread is Mosiah 18:

Alma preaches in private—He sets forth the covenant of baptism and baptizes at the waters of Mormon—He organizes the Church of Christ and ordains priests—They support themselves and teach the people—Alma and his people flee from King Noah into the wilderness. About 148—145 B.C.

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?
11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.
12 And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.
13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said:Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world.
14 And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit.
15 And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water.
16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.
17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

Okay.
Now Mormons always say:

Doctrine and Covenants 20
72 Baptism is to be administered in the following manner unto all those who repent—

73 The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

How can they possibly know who has repented? Does an eight-year-old also repent? My relatives who were baptized didn't repent.

Why is there a church before Christ was born? Is it the church of God or the church of Christ? How do you say church of Christ in reformed Egyptian?

Why weren't the people confirmed members of the church and given the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands? Alma and Helam "came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit."

???

 

[withwonderingawe]

Matthew 3
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Alma 5
52 And again I say unto you, the Spirit saith: Behold, the ax is laid at the root of the tree; therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire, yea, a fire which cannot be consumed, even an unquenchable fire. Behold, and remember, the Holy One hath spoken it.

This is actually an idiom which comes from Deut 20

19 ¶ When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man’s life) to employ them in the siege:
20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.


Both John and Alma would have understood if a tree does not give fruit you cut it down.

 

[Aseyesee]

The Book of Mormon is said to be the keystone of the LDS religion. This passage is important.

2 Nephi 26
20 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor.

21 And there are many churches built up which cause envyings, and strifes, and malice.

22 And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever.

Those verses are official teachings. I'm looking for opinions from Mormons. In the absence of replies from Mormons, others should join in.

Opinions about what specifically?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Both John and Alma would have understood if a tree does not give fruit you cut it down.

Crazy, right?

 

[Anto9us]

The exact idiom " the axe is laid unto the root of the tree " is not in Deut 20 -- yall are fishin' for salamanders with that one

 

[Jane_Doe]

Anto9us, I noticed during the course of this conversation you've spent the time to change your avatar to state a falsehood. Why is that?