The Judgment Seat: By Torah or By Christ

Stricter Standard: Word of Christ or Law of Moses?

  • Law of Moses

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Word of Christ

    Votes: 11 68.8%
  • There is no standard, Grace Abounds

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • Word of Christ and Torah are equal

    Votes: 4 25.0%

  • Total voters
    16
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Mr. M

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2 Corinthians 5:10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
John 12:48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Matthew 12:36. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Romans 2:16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
 

Mr. M

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Being merciful and forgiving may provide just enough of a nudge to to enter through the narrow gate! :)
Here is exactly where the Word of Christ is stricter.
Matthew 6:14, 15. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Religion has its doctrines, but life in Christ has it's if, ands, and buts....
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Here is exactly where the Word of Christ is stricter.
Matthew 6:14, 15. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Religion has its doctrines, but life in Christ has it's if, ands, and buts....

Many people don't understand 'if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

God doesn't forgive you because you forgive others. That's not what the gospel is all about. If 5000 people hurt you and you forgive all even then just because you do doesn't mean you receive forgiveness. Because forgiveness comes from grace and not something you done, do or will ever do nor will any quantity of your good deeds even remove just of your sins.

Our Lord in the gospels is clearly saying that I am only truly forgiven when I am truly repentant. To be truly repentant means that I realise I deserve nothing but punishment, and that if I am forgiven it is to be attributed entirely to the love of God and to His mercy and grace, and to nothing else at all. If I am truly repentant and realise my position before God and realise that I am only forgiven that way, then of necessity I shall forgive those who trespass against me.

And if I seen and experienced all that, the free gift of God, then I no longer see men as I used to see them, I see them now with Christian eye. I see them as the victims and the slaves of sin. I have come to see them not simply as men who I dislike but as men to be pitied. I have come to see them as being governed by the god of this world, as being still where once I was, and would be yet but for the grace of God. So I am sorry for them.

Just look at Jesus, there upon the cross, who never sinned who never did any harm to anyone, who came and preached the truth, who came to seek and save that which was lost. And what does He say? 'Father, forgive them'. Why? For they not know what they do. It is not they, it is satan, they are victims, they are being governed and dominated by sin. Christ has pity upon the sinners and is merciful with respect for them And that I say, is to be the condition of every Christian. We are to feel a sense of sorrow for all who are helpless slaves of sin. That is to be our attitude towards people.

So yes we should forgive but forgive because we remember that we were too controlled by the sin (does not excuse our actions) and we still would remained enslaved to sin had not Jesus took pity on us, so when we are forgiving others we remember how Jesus looked at us in pity and we look at others who are hurting (because they are controlled by sin like we once were) us and forgive them for the same reason as Jesus forgave us.

So no I am not forgiven and my wicked heart in not cleansed just because I have a nice character and forgive others. I only receive mercy just because Jesus took pity on me, that's what it means to be merciful
 
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Mr. M

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God doesn't forgive you because you forgive others.
No, Christ does not say this and neither do I. The correct understanding is this:
because He has forgiven you, He expects you to forgive others. If you do not...
I would consider the parable of Matthew 18, the unforgiving servant.
James 2:13. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
 
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Mr. M

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So no I am not forgiven and my wicked heart in not cleansed just because I have a nice character and forgive others. I only receive mercy just because Jesus took pity on me, that's what it means to be merciful
So, how then do you answer the poll?
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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No, Christ does not say this and neither do I.

I know, my point is many people mistook Matthew 6:18 and think that is the case.

My point is that yes we should forgive as we were forgiven but it goes much more deeper than that. We must remember why the Lord forgave us to know how to forgive others. The Lord took pity on us because He has seen what sin has done to our hearts and how sin controls our lives and how unfortunately us sinners not only sin but we love to sin. That's why when Jesus was on Earth He cried over Jerusalem because He saw the fallen state of Jerusalem which was deeply controlled by sin and how utterly powerless people are against sin.

That's why Jesus on the cross said 'Father forgive them, for they not know what they do'. Jesus took pity on them because He saw how sin took control of their life and how hopeless they are. Jesus equally took pity on us Christians living right now, because we too were born in sin and we too were enslaved by it.

So yes we should forgive but forgive because we remember that we were too controlled by the sin (does not excuse our actions) and we still would remained enslaved to sin had not Jesus took pity on us, so when we are forgiving others we remember how Jesus looked at us in pity and we look at others who are hurting (because they are controlled by sin like we once were) us and forgive them for the same reason as Jesus forgave us. Maybe this is obvious to you, but not many others.

Sorry for repeating the points, but I do believe this is important.
 
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Mr. M

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I know, my point is many people mistook Matthew 6:18 and think that is the case.

My point is that yes we should forgive as we were forgiven but it goes much more deeper than that. We must remember why the Lord forgave us to know how to forgive others. The Lord took pity on us because He has seen what sin has done to our hearts and how sin controls our lives and how unfortunately us sinners not only sin but we love to sin. That's why when Jesus was on Earth He cried over Jerusalem because He saw the fallen state of Jerusalem which was deeply controlled by sin and how utterly powerless people are against sin.

That's why Jesus on the cross said 'Father forgive them, for they not know what they do'. Jesus took pity on them because He saw how sin took control of their life and how hopeless they are. Jesus equally took pity on us Christians living right now, because we too were born in sin and we too were enslaved by it.

So yes we should forgive but forgive because we remember that we were too controlled by the sin (does not excuse our actions) and we still would remained enslaved to sin had not Jesus took pity on us, so when we are forgiving others we remember how Jesus looked at us in pity and we look at others who are hurting (because they are controlled by sin like we once were) us and forgive them for the same reason as Jesus forgave us. Maybe this is obvious to you, but not many others.

Sorry for repeating the points, but I do believe this is important.
Your point is well taken, and points us to a path of humility. For God opposes the proud.
"He who is forgiven much loves much". Unloving believers apparently believe that they weren't really 'that bad' to begin with....
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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So, how then do you answer the poll?

I don't think neither the gospel nor the Moses law are stricter than the other.

The whole message of the Bible is that in the moment Adam fell, we all fell in Adam and thus are all born in sin. And sin is controlling our lives and makes our hearts wicked and thus we love the sin (doesn't excuse us from sinning). And unless our hearts are cleansed we can't follow neither the Moses's law nor the gospels since it's impossible unless we receive a new heart.

Now. Let's take a look at the whole Bible. How is one righteous in God's eyes? By trusting and depening on God, no matter how impossible it seems. I.E. Abraham was made righteous in the moment he believed God told him, God will make a massive nation out of him despite his advanced age. Noah was made rightoeus when God told him the day of Judgement (flood) is coming. Noah wasn't like oh maybe God will change His mind or something, no he told anyone and build the boat. Same in the New Testament. How did the blind for example became healed? Because when Jesus told him to go to the pool, the blind man believed him and went. Or the woman of bad blood, she believed that when she touches Jesus cloth He will notice her. What did Jesus say? That faith healed her. It was always about following God in faith, then the impossible comes possible because without the faith in God, even the easiest law is impossible to follow.
 
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Mr. M

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I don't think neither the gospel nor the Moses law are stricter than the other.

The whole message of the Bible is that in the moment Adam fell, we all fell in Adam and thus are all born in sin. And sin is controlling our lives and makes our hearts wicked and thus we love the sin (doesn't excuse us from sinning). And unless our hearts are cleansed we can't follow neither the Moses's law nor the gospels since it's impossible unless we receive a new heart.

Now. Let's take a look at the whole Bible. How is one righteous in God's eyes? By trusting and depening on God, no matter how impossible it seems. I.E. Abraham was made righteous in the moment he believed God told him, God will make a massive nation out of him despite his advanced age. Noah was made rightoeus when God told him the day of Judgement (flood) is coming. Noah wasn't like oh maybe God will change His mind or something, no he told anyone and build the boat. Same in the New Testament. How did the blind for example became healed? Because when Jesus told him to go to the pool, the blind man believed him and went. Or the woman of bad blood, she believed that when she touches Jesus cloth He will notice her. What did Jesus say? That faith healed her. It was always about following God in faith, then the impossible comes possible because without the faith in God, even the easiest law is impossible to follow.
You don't think Yeshua was being stricter than Torah here:
Matthew 5:43, 44. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.
You can, by the OT define your enemy as 'all evil'.
Psalm 97:10. Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
We shouldn't be too narrow in defining enemy. The person that is driving you crazy at work needs you to love them, and bless them, and pray for them; even if they "despitefully use you."
Would you agree that our day to day life is where we need to apply the Word of Christ with our strictest adherence?
I will take your point under advisement and see if I can change the poll to add an option Christ=Torah.
Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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You don't think Yeshua was being stricter than Torah here:
Matthew 5:43, 44. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.
You can, by the OT define your enemy as 'all evil'.
Psalm 97:10. Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
We shouldn't be too narrow in defining enemy. The person that is driving you crazy at work needs you to love them, and bless them, and pray for them; even if they "despitefully use you."
Would you agree that our day to day life is where we need to apply the Word of Christ with our strictest adherence?
I will take your point under advisement and see if I can change the poll to add an option Christ=Torah.
Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated.

Firstly if you love God, and love your neighbour, everything else follows. For example you will never steal when you love God. That defies logic. The one who knows God knows he has everything thus doesn't steal. The one who loves his neigh-borough as himself wouldn't hurt the neigh-borough...out of love, the real love produced by our cleansed hearts.

Do you believe that the people in Old Testament had it easier than people in New Testament or vise versa? Because no one has any advantage. When we come face to face with God no one has any advantage. Doesn't matter were you were born, doesn't matter what environment you were born into, doesn't matter to what nation you were born, doesn't matter how much wealth you have, doesn't matter how much possessions you have for we all are equally guilty of the sin.

Many people have an excuse that if they were born when Jesus was here they would believe and that people born in that era had an advantage of seeing the miracles. Which is utterly false. If you don't believe Jesus now you wouldn't believe Him back then. The Pharisees studied the Torah for decades, had Messiah among them, saw His miracles yet did not recognise Him as sin was covering their eyes, and unless God uncover your eyes, you will never see Jesus, even if you were there and witnessed Jesus first hand.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Okay, I added your answer to the poll options. Thanks again.

Well if you think about it, both come from God and both are about following ins faith and not following by the letter. Of course following by the letter should not be took aside, but you need to follow in faith first. The was the mistake of Pharisees, they were more concerned about the letter.

First commandment must be followed either way. If you love God, you fulfil all of the commandments
 
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Mr. M

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Do you believe that the people in Old Testament had it easier than people in New Testament or vise versa? Because no one has any advantage. When we come face to face with God no one has any advantage. Doesn't matter were you were born, doesn't matter what environment you were born into, doesn't matter to what nation you were born, doesn't matter how much wealth you have, doesn't matter how much possessions you have for we all are equally guilty of the sin.

Believers have a two edged sword.
They receive the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit.
When they abide in the Holy Spirit, and they are endued with power.

1 Peter 1:9-12. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

While this would imply an advantage, it also implies a higher standard to how we live our life.

Luke 1:74, 75. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Unless your righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees....
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Believers have a two edged sword.
They receive the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit.
When they abide in the Holy Spirit, and they are endued with power.

1 Peter 1:9-12. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

While this would imply an advantage, it also implies a higher standard to how we live our life.

Luke 1:74, 75. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Unless your righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees....

I don't believe that. There is only one type of faith required from you by God, And that's the same for everyone, whether it is Moses, Abraham, Apostles, Paul, Stephen or me and you. Yes, me and you have to be exactly like Abraham in faith. Wait that's impossible, it is, for us, not the Spirit.

I think you will agree that all born in spirit are equal. There is no one Christian bigger than the other. Yes, in their roles yes, some are preachers, some are singers etc. equal in spirit not our roles. And I do believe that is the same equality between the people in both Old and New testaments.

Btw I really wouldn't to live in era of Enoh, Methuselah etc. Those people lived for centuries, and had barely anything to eat, they only had what they found in ground, not to mention there was no rain. I mean who wants to live 900 years, live is tough enough as it is.

Just out of curiosity. There was no law before Moses, so by what did God judge people before Moses and what law did they follow? It was none wasn't it, and yet they were guilty of sin and yet they had to have a faith.
 
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eleos1954

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2 Corinthians 5:10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
John 12:48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Matthew 12:36. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Romans 2:16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Please define "law of Moses".
 
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Mr. M

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Just out of curiosity. There was no law before Moses, so by what did God judge people before Moses and what law did they follow? It was none wasn't it, and yet they were guilty of sin and yet they had to have a faith.

Genesis 26:5. “because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Deuteronomy 4:33. Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live?
John 5:25. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
Btw I really wouldn't to live in era of Enoh, Methuselah etc. Those people lived for centuries, and had barely anything to eat, they only had what they found in ground, not to mention there was no rain. I mean who wants to live 900 years, live is tough enough as it is.
I have never read in Genesis these details of their life, I will leave this alone if you don't mind.
I think you will agree that all born in spirit are equal. There is no one Christian bigger than the other. Yes, in their roles yes, some are preachers, some are singers etc. equal in spirit not our roles. And I do believe that is the same equality between the people in both Old and New testaments.
1 Corinthians 12:23. And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty.
In the Kingdom, less can be more. But I agree, all must be of the same Spirit, in Unity.
1 Corinthians 12:11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
To the extent that The Lord decides, and not our own will, some receive an anointing that places a greater burden of responsibility. Important to pray for those in leadership.
 
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Please define "law of Moses".
The law of Moses is the law of God - Moses was just the vessel which God used to give His law to His people

Christ taught the law of Moses & God and revealed the teachings of it in their fullness.
 
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