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The Judge Is Standing At The Door

Discussion in 'Hamartiology' started by Minister Monardo, Apr 20, 2021.

  1. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    James 5:
    8
    You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
    or, the presence of the Lord
    The understanding of this is obscured by the tendency of translators to use the
    expression "the coming of the Lord", as if he is referring to the second coming.
    parousia [G3952] means to be near, but is only occasionally translated "presence".

    9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged;
    behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

    When you are upset with someone, be sure you don't speak about them
    behind their back.
    Do you see what James did here?


    Genesis 4:
    6
    The Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
    7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well,
    sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you,
    but you must rule over it.

    His presence is with us always.
    There is no talking about others behind their back.
    Your sin is at the door, and so is The Judge.


    Matthew 28:20. Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you.
    And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
     
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  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Parousia also means "visit, arrival," and refers to citizens going out out of the city to greet an incoming dignitary on an official visit to the city, accompanying him back into the city.

    In the NT, it means the second coming of the Lord where the elect will go out (rise) to meet him in the air, accompanying him back to earth, which is why translators translate it as the second coming.
    The Judge is Jesus who is coming soon in his parousia (official journey) to judge the world.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
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  3. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am sure there is no doubt who James is referring to as The Judge.
    Could you explain how you are applying this use of parousia to the statement James makes?
    I am well aware and acknowledge that the word is frequently used to refer to the Lord's
    return. The point I am making is that grumbling against a fellow believer is done
    "in His presence". We are warned that grumbling, murmuring and complaining are an
    offense to the Lord.
    What you have posted is interesting, "nice to know" information. However, the point
    of the OP is that grumbling is a temptation towards sin, if not an offense in itself.

    Here is an example of parousia being used by Paul:
    Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
    but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    The admonition of the OP is to be aware that words and actions are done in full
    awareness of the Judge, who is "at the door", even as sin is "crouching there"
    when believers give a place for the devil by complaining.


    G3952 - parousia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
     
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  4. honey badger

    honey badger i am

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    the door we knock on is God ....
     
  5. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hey, don't knock Him until you've tried Him. :)
    "Taste and see that He is good"
     
  6. honey badger

    honey badger i am

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    the tree yields its fruit without having to touch it .... and why Jesus received all that the Devil tempted him with ...
     
  7. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Seems to me the scripture is more about the grumbling than it is talking about someone behind their back.

    I can think of a few instances where talking about someone behind there back may be necessary, or done in order to do good, or help someone.
     
  9. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I see your point. That must not be what James is addressing, because he is warning not to do
    it. I admit, it is not necessary to interpret as "behind their back", as the grumbling could be
    directed at them before witnesses. This should be done with meekness.

    Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such
    an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
     
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  10. honey badger

    honey badger i am

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    the garden, the tree, the rib, and the women are in picture the same truth ... they are a portrayal of our soul which is a door we go in and out of ... until He causes us to remain ... it is a law being written in us ...
     
  11. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Well, as you know, the NT Christians believed Jesus would return in their lifetime for the final judgment.

    The
    "presence of the Lord has drawn near" (is at hand, close, but not yet here)--James 5:8
    James is speaking of a future presence, not the current presence of which you speak.

    That makes the near future (as they believed) "presence" to be in the "visit of official digni
    tary, where the citizens go out to accompany him back into the city" as the intended use of parousia in James 5:8, rather than current "presence."

    James is using that near-future "presence" and judgment as warning against sin of grumbling.
    Agreed. . .all true, but the presence James' is referring to here is near future. . .warning against an offense/sin in light of that near future presence of Jesus'; i.e., in his imminent return/second coming for judgment.
    But note, Paul is not referring to a (near) future presence "at hand" (i.e., near), but to a (his) past presence. It is the "at hand" in James 5:8 that indicates which meaning of parousia is meant there.
    Couldn't agree more. . .our issue here is not sin, our issue here is to which presence of Jesus is
    James 5:8 referring.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  12. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What I know is that was how they were instructed to live their life.
    No, he says that He is "at the door", in the same way that God warned Cain that is where sin lies,
    ever present. Grumbling against a brother can and does destroy fellowship now. The scriptures do not
    say that Jesus will deal with that when He returns. He is ever present to correct this error now,
    by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit.

    I disagree. Grumbling against a brother is sin. For the saints, knowing the good
    we ought to do and not doing it is sin. James 4:17
     
  13. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Not in the Greek text. It states; he is "near" or "at hand."
    James is reminding them Jesus' return to judge sin is "at hand" or "near."
    James is not referring to correction there, he is referring to imminent judgment.
    Indeed, he is.
    By "our issue," I mean our point of discussion, the thing we are talking about--which meaning of parousia is James using in his warning of sin.
     
  14. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are stuck at verse 8. Could you please include verse 9, since the OP does, and you
    would not feel the need to correct me.
    Maybe re-read the entire OP. There is more here than 'parousia'.
     
  15. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Put the two verses together, where they belong, and use presence.
    Young's literal

    James 5:
    8
    be patient, ye also; establish your hearts, because the presence of the Lord hath drawn nigh;
    9 murmur not against one another, brethren, that ye may not be condemned; lo, the Judge
    before the door hath stood.
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    "Standing at the door," of verse 9, means nearby, no entrance has been made, he has not yet arrived
    in our presence; i.e., he is not yet here, he is nigh (near, close at hand, but not here).
    Indeed, there is! And it is very insightful.

    I'm sorry if demonstration of your instruction, regarding the meaning of parousia in James 5:8,
    as inaccurate was not agreeable to you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  17. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nothing wrong with the accuracy of my understanding of parousia.
    I gave you Young's translation of the verses.

    If you think you are going to hound me into agreeing with you and offering false apologies,
    you should think again. The discussion being unfruitful due to your lack of attention to detail or awareness even of the forum you are in has again made you tedious. Please move on.
     
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