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LDS The JST of Hebrews 6:1; 8:29-30

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by drstevej, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    He is the Way (or other Mormons) please translate this for me

    διο αφεντες τον της αρχης του χριστου λογον επι την τελειοτητα φερωμεθα μη παλιν θεμελιον καταβαλλομενοι μετανοιας απο νεκρων εργων και πιστεως επι θεον

    This new thread will let us stay on topic on the other thread.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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  2. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    The JST is hardly "prophetic" it mangles the text and claims that God agrees.
     
  3. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    This is the various translations according to Bible Hub:

    https://biblehub.com/hebrews/6-1.htm

    New International Version
    Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

    New Living Translation
    So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don't need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God.

    English Standard Version
    Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

    Berean Study Bible
    Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God,

    Berean Literal Bible
    Therefore, having left the beginning teaching of the Christ, we should go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and faith in God,

    New American Standard Bible
    Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

    King James Bible
    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    Christian Standard Bible
    Therefore, let us leave the elementary teaching about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

    Contemporary English Version
    We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why we ought to have faith in God.

    Good News Translation
    Let us go forward, then, to mature teaching and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. We should not lay again the foundation of turning away from useless works and believing in God;

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

    International Standard Version
    Therefore, leaving behind the elementary teachings about the Messiah, let us continue to be carried along to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead actions, faith toward God,

    NET Bible
    Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,

    New Heart English Bible
    Therefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on to perfection--not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God,

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    Because of this, let us leave the beginning of the message of The Messiah, and let us go on to perfection; or are you laying again another foundation for conversion from dead works and for faith in God,

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    With this in mind, we should stop going over the elementary truths about Christ and move on to topics for more mature people. We shouldn't repeat the basics about turning away from the useless things we did and the basics about faith in God.

    New American Standard 1977
    Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    Therefore, leaving now the word of the beginning of the establishment of the Christ, let us go on unto perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from works of death, and of faith in God,

    King James 2000 Bible
    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto maturity; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    American King James Version
    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    American Standard Version
    Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to things more perfect, not laying again the foundation of penance from dead works, and of faith towards God,

    Darby Bible Translation
    Wherefore, leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us go on [to what belongs] to full growth, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God,

    English Revised Version
    Wherefore let us cease to speak of the first principles of Christ, and press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    Webster's Bible Translation
    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God,

    Weymouth New Testament
    Therefore leaving elementary instruction about the Christ, let us advance to mature manhood and not be continually re-laying a foundation of repentance from lifeless works and of faith in God,

    World English Bible
    Therefore leaving the teaching of the first principles of Christ, let us press on to perfection--not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God,

    Young's Literal Translation
    Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,
     
  4. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    I asked for you to translate it. Can you? What is your training in Koine greek?
     
  5. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    If you notice there are many differences in the translation of the Koine Greek into English. We all get training in doing something from someone who has an understanding of how it is to be done. I use the internet tools and have no training in Koine Greek or Hebrew. I know some Spanish and Vietnamese as I took Spanish in high school and spent a year in Vietnam. So are you saying that you understand Koine Greek and could you do a better job of translating it than is found at Bible Hub?
     
  6. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    I have enough training in Koine Greek to know that Joseph Smith mangles it to make it say what he wants. (Ex. Romans 8:28-29)

    Show me how Bible Hub supports Smith's mangling of Romans 8:29-30. You seem to avoid that text.

    I have studied in high school & grad school: Spanish, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, German and Dutch.
     
  7. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Joseph Smith translated it by the power of the Holy Ghost, the same way he was able to speak to native Americans in their native tongue.

    http://www.josephsmithfoundation.or...ads/2012/09/armitage-preaching-indians_MD.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  8. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Are justification and sanctification the same thing? Are they interchangeable? What are the greek words for each?
     
  9. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    They are obviously not the same word in English or Greek, however the JST was received through the Holy Ghost. It was not a translation of Greek words into English words.

    However here are two translations of the exact same Greek text:

    "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ"

    "Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ"

    See how different they are?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  10. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Changing to sanctification from justification is a HUGE difference... it makes salvation based upon on works (sanctification). This is contradictory to what the greek text says... namely He glorifies whom he justifies.

    Justification ... to declare righteous based upon Christ's work for us.

    To change the text, as Joseph did, and claim the Holy Spirit did it is arrogance.

    This disclaimer "In this sense, the word translation is used in a broader and different way than usual, for Joseph’s translation was more revelation than literal translation from one language into another." is in reality an admission that it is not a translations like the versions you have cited from Bible Hub.

    Who cares if Joseph claims to have been able to speak Native American language? His JST is a blasphemous deception. And it means Mormonism depends upon Joseph, who translated the purported BoM using a hat and a rock, and not upon the Holy Scripture of the Bible.

    This alone would make me exclude Mormonism from Christianity.
     
  11. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I have always said that we are not saved by works nor are we saved without them. Love is nothing without service and charity. Hence the need for this scripture:

    (New Testament | James 2:14 - 26)

    14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    If you believe that a person can be saved without works, I hope you will eventually see the light and change your opinion.
     
  12. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    James 2 is justification before men not God. We can not see a heart so we can only judge by the vital signs of works.

    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    CONTEXT MATTERS.

    Try again.
     
  13. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Yes context does matter, read the whole passage.
     
  14. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    LOVE that God gives us for others:

    1 Corinthians 13:1
    1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not :heart:charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not :heart:charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    4:heart:Charity suffereth long, and is kind; :heart:charity envieth not; :heart:charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

    8 :heart:Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, :heart:charity, these three; but the greatest of these is :heart:charity.

    Galatians 5
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is :heart:love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


    Christians :heart:love Him, because He first Tiny Cross.gif loved us! Tiny Bible 3.gif
     
  15. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I do not see any significant difference in those translations.
     
  16. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Ok, get back on topic, I do not see your translation of the text from Greek.
     
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