The "Jesus" we accept, MUST be "PREACHED".

[amariselle]

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. - 1 John 4:1-3

Jesus has come "in the flesh", He is not merely flesh alone, or merely a mortal man, He is God incarnate.

 

[Dartman]

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. - John 17:1-5

I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. - Isaiah 42:8

So, if God, as He says, will not give His glory to "another", and Jesus says that He had glory with the Father before the world began, either God lied in Isaiah 42:8, or Jesus is in fact God.

Jesus states that he shared the glory God gave him with the apostles ...
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

So, either Jehovah did NOT give Jesus JEHOVAH'S OWN GLORY .... or Isa 42:8 is a lie.

I think you could guess, I am going with; Jehovah NEVER gave Jesus Jehovah's OWN Glory, the glory of being "the ONLY true God".... (to quote Jesus himself).
Jehovah gave Jesus the glory Jehovah planned from before creation, and that Jesus shared THAT glory with his apostles!

 

[Dartman]

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. - 1 John 4:1-3

Amen! I agree with THIS 100%.
But NOT your ADDITION to this text, as you state below;

Jesus has come "in the flesh", He is not merely flesh alone, or merely a mortal man, He is God incarnate.

 

[amariselle]

You haven't met Paul's challenge, and you know it.
You can't, and you know it.
You have been spouting trinitarian drivel, quoting tired, twisted texts, that blatantly FAIL to actually state trinitarian theory, and ONLY appear to support trinitarian theory, when viewed from an entrenched trinitarian perspective.

Again, PLEASE provide ANY example of ANY tenet UNIQUE to the trinity, being explained to ANY audience in the Scripture.
OR, PLEASE provide ANY example of ANY tenet UNIQUE to the trinity, being explained in ANY Scripture.
OR, PLEASE provide ANY example of ANY Scripture that STATES "Jesus is God".

I've provided plenty.

Jesus was fully God and fully man here on earth. He existed with the Father, as God, before the world began, sharing in His glory (which God shares with no mere mortal) everything that has been made was created through Him, and He came in the form of sinful flesh and dwelt among us.

God incarnate.

Jesus declared Himself to be God several times as well, and the Jews understood exactly what He was saying.

Anyway, if you're not going to believe the Bible, you certainly will not believe me.

 

[amariselle]

Jesus states that he shared the glory God gave him with the apostles ...
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

So, either Jehovah did NOT give Jesus JEHOVAH'S OWN GLORY .... or Isa 42:8 is a lie.

I think you could guess, I am going with; Jehovah NEVER gave Jesus Jehovah's OWN Glory, the glory of being "the ONLY true God".... (to quote Jesus himself).
Jehovah gave Jesus the glory Jehovah planned from before creation, and that Jesus shared THAT glory with his apostles!

I think you need to read those verses again. Jesus clearly states He shared the same glory with God that is God's glory alone, which God will not share with anyone other than Himself, and certainly not with a mere mortal.

Anyway, you can believe God or not, your choice.

 

[amariselle]

I am beyond grieved that you would "preach" "another Gospel" by denying that Jesus is God, but it is your choice.

I'm done debating this now. You can believe the Bible or not. As I said, if you don't believe what Scripture says and what Jesus said about Himself, you will not believe me. As such, continued discussion is pointless.

(Also, please be careful when you label someone with derogatory terms, such as "brainwashed." That's not only a violation of forum rules (flaming), but it is also, simply not the way we should treat one another.

 

[Dartman]

I've proved plenty.

Jesus was fully God and fully man here on earth. He existed with the Father, as God, before the world began, sharing in His glory (which God shares with no mere mortal) everything that has been made was created through Him, and He came in the form of sinful flesh and dwelt among us.

Why don't we find this theory stated EVER in the Scriptures?
Instead, we find Jehovah/YHVH God is the ONLY true God, Jesus is the one SENT by Him;
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

and that Jehovah/YHVH God is the ONLY creator of heaven and earth, and His "holy servant";

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, Thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:25 who by the holy spirit, by the mouth of our father David Thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things? 26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed: 27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, 28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass. 29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto Thy servants to speak Thy word with all boldness, 30 while thy stretchest forth thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.
[/quote] Jesus declared Himself to be God several times as well,[/quote]Never.
[/quote] and the Jews understood exactly what He was saying.[/quote]Obviously not, Jesus corrected them.

Anyway, if you're not going to believe the Bible, you certainly will not believe me.

You would have to agree with the Bible, THEN I will believe you.
Notice, I provided quotes that actually STATE, plainly and simply, the TRUTH regarding Jesus and his God.
Please attempt to do the same.

 

[Dartman]

I think you need to read those verses again. Jesus clearly states He shared the same glory with God that is God's glory alone, which God will not share with anyone other than Himself, and certainly not with a mere mortal.

I colored the portion of your statement that is pure fiction. YOU need to read those verses again. There is NOTHING in the text that supports the fiction you have posted here;
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.
Where in this quote is "God's glory alone" mentioned? Where is ANYTHING supporting your contradiction with Isa 42:8???

 

[Dartman]

I am beyond grieved that you would "preach" "another Gospel" by denying that Jesus is God, but it is your choice.

I am equally grieved that you would preach another "Jesus" than the "Jesus" actually preached in the Scriptures.
You, I, and all objective readers know, you have utterly failed Paul's test;
2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached ...

 

[amariselle]

How about these verses?

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. - Matthew 3:13-17

Here's what John says about that:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. - John 1:1-18

At Jesus' baptism Who He is (Who He always was and always will be) was revealed. He was not made anything in that moment, He has always been God)

I quoted the King James, but I am not KJV only. However, those verses clearly say that not only was the "logos" (the Word) with God in the beginning, but that He was God from the beginning.

If you have a problem with what is written in those verses, your problem is with Scripture, not with me.

Again, if you don't believe Jesus is actually God, your problem is with Scripture, not with me.

(Also odd that you would even suggest I am "apostate" for believing that Jesus is God)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. - John 1:1-18

The "logos" (Word) that was with God from the beginning and is God, became flesh and dwelt among us. This is of course referring to the incarnation of Jesus Christ, and unequivocally and beyond any shadow of a doubt confirms that Jesus is God.

So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” - Matthew 1:22-23

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” - John 8:57-58

Everyone who has read Scripture understands what Jesus saying "I AM" means. (Which is why they tried to stone Him when He said those words)

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” - Exodus 3:14

Right, because He is God, always has been and always will be. God has no beginning and no end.

The "Jesus" preached by Paul and every single disciple was God, not a mere man, as they all well knew.

What I "trotted out" is well known Scripture that unequivocally confirms this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So you may want to ask yourself who it is who is believing in "another Jesus."

When Jesus had spoken these words, He went out with His disciples over the Brook Kidron, where there was a garden, which He and His disciples entered. And Judas, who betrayed Him, also knew the place; for Jesus often met there with His disciples. Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops, and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”

They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus said to them, "I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”

And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.” - John 18:1-8

You seem to be a very angry and defensive person. (Calling me and others "brainwashed", for example.) Regardless, contrary to the Scriptures that plainly state otherwise, you reject that Jesus is God. (Even though Jesus Himself stated He is God several times. You must believe He lied in that case.)

Oh well, your choice.

I'll stick with believing in the Jesus of the Bible, the incarnate God, who came in "the form of sinful flesh," who was able to save us by the sacrifice of Himself on the cross. (Fulfilling many OT prophecies in His earthly life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension to Heaven.)

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh..."- Romans 8:3

Jesus is God, always has been and always will be. You can believe otherwise if you like, contrary to Scripture, and therefore call God a liar. Your choice.

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. - John 17:1-5

I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. - Isaiah 42:8

So, if God, as He says, will not give His glory to "another", and Jesus says that He had glory with the Father before the world began, either God lied in Isaiah 42:8, or Jesus is in fact God.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. - 1 John 4:1-3

Jesus has come "in the flesh", He is not merely flesh alone, or merely a mortal man, He is God incarnate.

Believe the Bible or don't. Up to you.

Have a great day.

 

[amariselle]

I am equally grieved that you would preach another "Jesus" than the "Jesus" actually preached in the Scriptures.
You, I, and all objective readers know, you have utterly failed Paul's test;
2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached ...

Exactly. The Jesus Paul preached is God.

Anyway, I'm out. Continued discussion would be pointless.

 

[cloudyday2]

Jesus is my Lord, my king, my brother, my mediator, my advocate, my Savior, the Christ/anointed, my shepherd, my priest. I do not pray TO him, I pray THROUGH him to his God and my God.

FWIW, I think the scholars associated with the Enoch Seminar have some interesting ideas that give insight into the earliest Christian beliefs.
Welcome to Enoch Seminar Online | International Scholarship on Second Temple Judaism.- Christian, Rabbinic and Islamic Origins
Enoch seminar - Wikipedia

I've read two non-academic books that give overviews, and they made a lot of sense to me.
Enoch and Qumran Origins
The Jewish Gospels

 

[ViaCrucis]

Paul's tearful warning of the Elders from Ephesus puts your observations in context;
Acts 20:28-31 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

The apostasy (2 Thess 2:1-12) was beginning in Paul's time, and would last until the 2nd coming of Christ. Church history proves beyond doubt, poorly converted disciples of Greek philosophy began distorting "Jesus" immediately following the death of the apostles. This heresy developed over the next 3 centuries, resulting in a GROSS "falling away" from Christ's teaching .. including NO hierarchy, NO violence, and Jehovah is his God.

Which, of course, addresses absolutely nothing in my post.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes, IT did! God's words (logos) were fulfilled as a flesh and blood baby descendant of Eve, Abraham, Judah and David through Mary.

The plural of logos is logoi. And, no, the text is pretty explicitly clear the Logos became flesh and dwelt (ἐσκήνωσεν tented, tabernacled, made tent) among us and we beheld this one's (the Logos') glory, the glory as the only begotten Son of the Father.

Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας

The Son and the Logos are one and the same.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dartman]

Believe the Bible or don't. Up to you.

Have a great day.

Why would you bother repeating your errors? Did you expect a different result this time?
The FACT is, you have accepted a "Jesus" that is ONLY explained by apostate theologians .... rather than accepting the "Jesus" actually PREACHED in the Scriptures.

 

[Dartman]

Exactly. The Jesus Paul preached is God.

Never. Instead the "Jesus" Paul preaches worships Jehovah/YHVH God, as his God!

 

[Dartman]

Paul's tearful warning of the Elders from Ephesus puts your observations in context;
Acts 20:28-31 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

The apostasy (2 Thess 2:1-12) was beginning in Paul's time, and would last until the 2nd coming of Christ. Church history proves beyond doubt, poorly converted disciples of Greek philosophy began distorting "Jesus" immediately following the death of the apostles. This heresy developed over the next 3 centuries, resulting in a GROSS "falling away" from Christ's teaching .. including NO hierarchy, NO violence, and Jehovah is his God.

Which, of course, addresses absolutely nothing in my post.

-CryptoLutheran

Of course it does.
Your post began with this statement about historical Christian operation;

Most Christians aren't "Bible only" Christians; because that simply isn't how Christianity historically has operated. And, further, "Bible only" is itself something that can't be found in the Bible. No where does the Bible itself say this, and further, the Canon of Scripture is never spelled out in the Bible either.

The Bible exists as the result of historic Christian teaching and tradition, yes, the Bible is part of Christian tradition.

My post explained the context of Church History, in the light of Paul's prophecy ABOUT the coming "falling away" within the Church, that would in fact DOMINATE Church history until Jesus returns.
The traditions of the mainstream Church are HIGHLY suspect, and should NEVER be trusted ..... UNLESS .... there is CLEAR Scriptural support for doing so .... and we know the doctrine of the 'trinity' is utterly devoid of ANY "CLEAR Scriptural support".

 

[Dartman]

The plural of logos is logoi. And, no, the text is pretty explicitly clear the Logos became flesh and dwelt (ἐσκήνωσεν tented, tabernacled, made tent) among us and we beheld this one's (the Logos') glory, the glory as the only begotten Son of the Father.

Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας

The Son and the Logos are one and the same.

-CryptoLutheran

Not at all.
The consistent use of "logos" in John utterly refutes your assertion.
The FACT that Jesus is the "flesh and blood" fulfillment of Jehovah's word/logos, utterly refutes your assertion.
The desperation with which you cling to this "wrested" eisegesis is a testimony to how little "support" your doctrine has in the Scriptures.
The text means EXACTLY what it says, with logos meaning EXACTLY what it ALWAYS means.
The transparent effort to circumvent this, by artificially capitalizing the English word, "Word", is a sad display of bias. ALMOST as bad as 1 John 5:7, in the KJV!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Of course it does.
Your post began with this statement about historical Christian operation;
My post explained the context of Church History, in the light of Paul's prophecy ABOUT the coming "falling away" within the Church, that would in fact DOMINATE Church history until Jesus returns.
The traditions of the mainstream Church are HIGHLY suspect, and should NEVER be trusted ..... UNLESS .... there is CLEAR Scriptural support for doing so .... and we know the doctrine of the 'trinity' is utterly devoid of ANY "CLEAR Scriptural support".

What you completely missed, apparently, is that the Bible is part of the Church's tradition and teaching, without which there would be no Bible. If, therefore, the Church was dominated by apostates and it itself fell into great apostasy making the Church's historic teaching unreliable that also includes the Bible itself.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not at all.
The consistent use of "logos" in John utterly refutes your assertion.
The FACT that Jesus is the "flesh and blood" fulfillment of Jehovah's word/logos, utterly refutes your assertion.
The desperation with which you cling to this "wrested" eisegesis is a testimony to how little "support" your doctrine has in the Scriptures.
The text means EXACTLY what it says, with logos meaning EXACTLY what it ALWAYS means.
The transparent effort to circumvent this, by artificially capitalizing the English word, "Word", is a sad display of bias. ALMOST as bad as 1 John 5:7, in the KJV!

And yet the text, explicitly and plainly, identifies logos with the only-begotten Son.

Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας

Kai ho logos sarx egeneto kai eskenosen en emin kai etheasametha ten doxan autou doxan hos monogenous para patras pleres charitos kai aletheias

And the word flesh became and tented with ourselves and we-beholding the glory this-one glory as only-begotten from father full-of grace and truth

And the word became flesh and tented among us and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.

What was beheld? Autou, the pronoun, refers back to logos, "we beheld this one's glory", whose glory? The glory of the word, which is then connected with the monogenous para patros, the only-begotten of the Father. The logos is the only-begotten.

You can, of course, continue to make accusations all you like; but you haven't offered anything resembling a substantive rebuttal as of yet.

-CryptoLutheran