The Japanese Christians forced to trample on Christ

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
In China, the Ekklesia meet together in small groups to talk about God and to serve and to worship Him.

If they are caught, they are subject to losing their house, whoever allows them in loses their house,
and they may be and frequently are beaten, arrested, imprisoned, and executed.

They are KNOWN FOR NOT CAVING IN - they REFUSE TO DENY JESUS.

Those who do , are lost.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Kate30

Active Member
Mar 20, 2019
328
230
Oz
✟55,851.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
In China, the Ekklesia meet together in small groups to talk about God and to serve and to worship Him.

If they are caught, they are subject to losing their house, whoever allows them in loses their house,
and they may be and frequently are beaten, arrested, imprisoned, and executed.

They are KNOWN FOR NOT CAVING IN - they REFUSE TO DENY JESUS.

Those who do , are lost.
Well that does beg the question as to why they need to meet in private especially if what you say is true ( that they are known for not caving in ) Yes why not openly proclaim the good news in China if it is a Martyrs cause that you and the Ekklesia so diligently require for not denying the God. Even if bibles are sent and also produced in China as well. Perhaps the tank man could show you all how it’s done.
 
Upvote 0

Kate30

Active Member
Mar 20, 2019
328
230
Oz
✟55,851.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
775101F9-9EAF-4F79-A216-4FE2DBBF936F.jpeg
 
Upvote 0

Kate30

Active Member
Mar 20, 2019
328
230
Oz
✟55,851.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Ask them.
Seek the truth.
Seek the answer.
(it is available in Foxes Book of Martyrs, btw, I think FREE, online, no spam, etc )
The Foxes book of martyrs I have read it’s a rather famous book. No need for online for I do prefer mine in paperback just like the bible especially when seeking out truth.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
The Yahweh I do not know we do call him Jehovah, or often Lord or Father due to reverence and respect
If you know Him, and I positively expect you do, then honor His Word. Do not deny Him.
Daniel did not deny Him.
Shadrack , Meshack, and Abednego did not deny Him.
Corrie ten Boom, and millions of Christians and Jews SLAUGHTERED did not deny Him.

Those who deny Him are showing lack of faith in Him.
Without faith it is impossible to please Him.
 
Upvote 0

Kate30

Active Member
Mar 20, 2019
328
230
Oz
✟55,851.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
p.s. did the tank man DENY JESUS ?
Did the tank man deny Jesus. Jeff I really don’t know. He not live long after to really deny anything being shot to death maybe the very same day. But he does live forever within our hearts to all who have loved and lost. I’m sure he was dear to God as well. Now I must sleep it is late.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
i.e. good. More 'evidence' and testimony to by martyred (even worldlings do this, though they perish forever) willingly instead of ever denying Jesus.
Never deny Jesus, no , not ever, for the eternal consequences may be and frequently are apparently if not obviously severe.
 
Upvote 0

faroukfarouk

Fading curmudgeon
Apr 29, 2009
35,902
17,177
Canada
✟279,058.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you. Our hope is the resurrection: With our Lord raising us unto eternal life into his perfect love for evermore .
@Kate30 Good to remember that true Christians are a pilgrim people (as per the examples of Hebrews 11); it seems that a lot of professing Christians in the West have forgotten this...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Kate30
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
It would be sinful to deny Christ, as some large number in China did when offered to spare their own life if they denied Christ.
God is merciful and understands the strains of being under duress. If someone apostatized under duress, then affirmed it later, that's different.
Millions of people were involved.
Thankfully, MANY did NOT deny Christ, and they were put to death at once.
The sorrow is that MANY did deny Christ (apparently), and their fate is far worse.
THe pastors that had taught them not to worry - they would be raptured not having to suffer on this world, wept for a long time because they had not told their congregations the truth, and many denied Jesus because the believed the pastors that they would not have to suffer....
Corrie ten Boom often related this testimony, and others, about the congregations in Africa also, being slaughtered for their faith (not given a choice either)..
The early Christians in one place brought all their books of pharmakeia / witchcraft/ sorcery/ , THOUSANDS of dollars worth, and burned them publicly all together, renouncing the witchcraft and idolatry involved,
so they likely would have burned all the crucifixes also, if they had any,
in repentance for idolatry and for having graven images.
All this never at all denying Christ, but in obedience to Him.
Wearing a symbol of our Christianity, whether a crucifix or a cross, is not idolatry.
When you say 'early' Christians...what era are you speaking of? And also burning crucifixes would be pure conjecture on your part.
We call those who are murdered for their faith to be martyrs. Paul tells us that we all have certain gifts, or strengths. Not all are called to be martyrs.
Regarding not renouncing your faith at the demand of authority, you're funny. You claim that the early Christians apostatized, corrupted the Church. Which is it?
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Kate30
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟148,100.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I appreciate your response. The question that the book raises (spoiler alert) is not "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of ourselves?" But rather, "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of someone else." It's a very different question and one worth my consideration as a Christian.

What makes the question of Silence more difficult is the consequences of preventing someone's physical death. Is it worth it to save someone's physical life if the result is that they lose their faith?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The argument of Rodrigues in Silence is less about maintaining physical life than maintaining Faith. It is suffering with Christ when denying Him, essentially taking up the Cross. In that way saving lives and 'writing the Gospel on the heart'. It is a strange idea. Jesus tells Rodrigues to trample on the fumie, for it was to save and end suffering that He came, after all.

Anyway, we have different ideas nowadays. I am always reminded of Bors in Arthurian legend, that refuses to sleep with a lady - even though she and her handmaidens threaten to kill themselves if he doesn't. Bors' personal chastity was valued higher than multiple people's lives, in the estimation of these legends.
 
Upvote 0

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,117
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,045.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But no more.
Japanese have came a long way.
M
Some Japanese Christians claim to derive from Christ himself in the 1st century AD, in northern Japan, as well as additional reports (consistent with the above, which claim he did travel around Japan studying) of him in central Japan

If so, perhaps the Kamikaze divine winds, which saved Japan from the Mongols (physical manifestation of "Gog & Magog" ?), were evoked by God in heaven in earth's atmosphere, to protect those surviving Japanese Christians -- "the family of Sajiro Sawaguchi" -- who traced descent from Him ???
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I appreciate your response. The question that the book raises (spoiler alert) is not "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of ourselves?" But rather, "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of someone else." It's a very different question and one worth my consideration as a Christian.
this can easily be made more personal too, "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of our own child" The more intimate you get the harder the question becomes. Parents would die for their kids if it was between them or their child, but would they deny Christ to spare their child? The point is about breaking a person because no matter what they choose it leads to torture.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,050
East Coast
✟830,354.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
this can easily be made more personal too, "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of our own child" The more intimate you get the harder the question becomes. Parents would die for their kids if it was between them or their child, but would they deny Christ to spare their child? The point is about breaking a person because no matter what they choose it leads to torture.

I forgot about this thread.

I don't see the issue. Would I step on the fumi-e to stop the persecution of another? Absolutely, I would. In the book, Christ says to Rodrigues:

“Trample! Trample! I more than anyone know of the pain in your foot. Trample! It was to be trampled by men that I was born into this world. It was to share men’s pain that I carried my cross.”

Here's the dilemma, as I see it. What matters most: 1) my self-righteousness or 2) my concern for the well-being of others? If I don't step, then I am placing my self-righteousness above them. If I step, then I sacrifice what only God can give me (righteousness) and they are saved from torture and death.

It is one thing for me to be willing to die for my faith. I am not in love with this world, nor with my life in it. But, I have no right to make that decision for others. It strikes me as the height of selfishness to presume that I can somehow secure or maintain righteousness through the sacrifice of the lives of others by refusing to deny Christ for their sake. What is more affirming of Christ: 1) refusing to deny Christ (verbally or by an act like stepping on the fumi-e) and others being tortured and killed as a result, or 2) denying Christ (verbally or by an act like stepping) and saving others from being tortured and killed as a result? I would rather face my Lord having done the latter than the former.

I know others will disagree, but I know exactly what I would do.

The point is about breaking a person because no matter what they choose it leads to torture.

To the best of my recollection that was not the point in the book, nor in the movie. The torture stopped having stepped. If it had been clear that stepping would not stop the torture, then there is no longer a dilemma. The dilemma only exists if the torture stops. So, again, for me the point was: Which matters most, their lives or my righteousness?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0