The Issue of Infallibility

ArmyMatt

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Who determines consensus or "the way it was from the beginning?"

the Holy Spirit does through the Church. so while this can take time, we can trust that what the Church affirms is true because it comes from the Spirit of Truth. this is how the Church operates in Acts, and this is how we operate. all of our beliefs can be directly traced back to the first centuries, and have been consistent over the centuries. language develops and clarifies, but the belief remains the same.

Isn't this fallible?

nope, because it is how the Spirit works.

Are there 7, 8 or 9 ecumenical councils? Are the synods in the 17th and 18th centuries binding?

7 officially, but a lot have ecumenical status even though they are not given that title. what is ecumenical is what was given to the Church at Pentecost, everything else falls in line with that experience.

Which Canon is correct (Russians include 3 Maccabees, Georgians include 4 Maccabees)? The only thing that there is consensus over are the 7 ecumenical council and most of the books of the Bible.

3 Maccabees because that is universally accepted. even though 4 Maccabees might very well be true. the consensus is Who Christ is as revealed in His Church. whatever is of the Church is therefore apart of that consensus, no matter how universally it is used.

so as another example, the Slava is a uniquely Serbian service, and generally not done outside of Slavic parishes, but it is just as Orthodox and part of the pulse of the Church as anything we do.
 
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buzuxi02

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WHy wouldn't that be the interpolation? You seem to be ignoring the literal things I cited in chaps 5 and 6 of 2.22.
Two reasons (primarily):
1. In paragraph 3 of that chapter Irenaeus is clear that the gospels count 3 passovers from the start to the end of his ministry. The first one taking place after His first miracle at the wedding at Cana, the third being the one he was crucified on.

The second reason is Irenaeus argues that his teaching can be verified by elders in Asia who were conversant with John. From John's gospel itself, and also by those who knew other apostles besides John. We know Irenaeus heard Polycarp preach as a child and also is the first to specifically mention Polycarp's epistle to the Phillipians, and urges everyone to read it. This epistle of Polycarp makes clear Ignatius letters are in his possession and will transmit them to the Phillipians to read. Well Ignatius (a disciple of John himself) in his epistle to Smyrna which Polycarp says he possessed makes clear that Christ died during Herod the Tetrarch's reign(d 39ad). Justin Martyr also agrees, although Justin wrote somewhat later we know Justin spent time in Ephesus learning the Johanine traditions, and he too makes clear Jesus died under Tiberius Caesar. So the two best sources we have which Irenaeus himself endorses disagree with the 50 year old crucifixion theory. The only thing left is the gospel of John in the 50 year old comment, but he also makes clear that the same gospel counts 3 passovers as evidence that Jesus didn't die in the 12th month of his 30th year of life. It assumes a 3 year ministry.

Sorry for derailing this thread, i went off on a tangent. I actually like discussing the obscure quirky traditions mentioned in 2-3rd century christianity, they are fascinating to uncover.
 
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abacabb3

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3 Maccabees because that is universally accepted. even though 4 Maccabees might very well be true. the consensus is Who Christ is as revealed in His Church. whatever is of the Church is therefore apart of that consensus, no matter how universally it is used.
so, which was taught from the beginning, is 4 maccabees in or out? One side is wrong and apart from the early consensus. How do you determine that?
 
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ArmyMatt

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so, which was taught from the beginning, is 4 maccabees in or out? One side is wrong and apart from the early consensus. How do you determine that?

earliest ones I have seen include only 3 Maccabees. that does not mean 4 is out. back in the day, the Epistle of Clement was included in the NT, but now is not. again, that does not mean 4 Maccabees is in error any more than Clement is in error, nor does it mean the Georgians are wrong for having it. if it is Orthodox in belief, it's fine
 
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buzuxi02

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so, which was taught from the beginning, is 4 maccabees in or out? One side is wrong and apart from the early consensus. How do you determine that?

You can actually have different books within your scriptural table of contents or in your index. For example the Orthodox church has ratified at Trullo a number of early lists of books. This includes the lists of canons 59& 60 of Laodicea, The list of Athanasius, that of Gregory Nazianzen, the African canon and i believe one in the Apostolic canons. Thus 1&2 Clement along with Hermas, the Didache are all deuterocanonical books in Orthodoxy. Deuterocanonical simply means they are not read publicly in Liturgy (which includes Revelation) but are sanctioned to be read privately. In other words these books are always read but never listened in church.
Another example the Ethiopian canon has more books than the other non-chalcedon miaphysite churches and its not a problem for them, and some of the Ethiopian canon are indeed cringeworthy.

Sorry for my obsession with the Irenaeus thing but I did a quick search of all the apostolic Fathers who had direct ties in the Asia Minor community with a lineage that can be traced back to Polycarp and beyond to the Apostle John. I wanted to see if any of them conveyed a 20 year ministry of the Lord (as Irenaeus even instructs us to do for verification). Besides the already mentioned Ignatius, Justin Martyr and Polycarp, i looked into Polycrates (bishop of Ephesus whose ties go back to John) and Melito of Sardis. Only a fragment of Polycrates exists on the quartodeciman controversy, no historical information or length of ministry. But in the fragments of Melito of Sardis i found a fragment against the docetist views of the Marcionites; the gnostic sect (along with the valentinians) Irenaeus is arguing against in chapter 2.22. Melito writes:

For there is no need, to persons of intelligence, to attempt to prove, from the deeds of Christ subsequent to His baptism, that His soul and His body, His human nature like ours, were real, and no phantom of the imagination. For the deeds done by Christ after His baptism, and especially His miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the Deity hidden in His flesh. For, being at once both God and perfect man likewise, He gave us sure indications of His two natures: of His Deity, by His miracles during the three years that elapsed after His baptism; of His humanity, during the thirty similar periods which preceded His baptism, in which, by reason of His low estate as regards the flesh, He concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God existing before all ages.
ANF08. The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, The Clementia, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Anyhow we demonstrated how the consensus works. That is there is no consensus of a 20 year ministry and if there was such a teaching those Churches (both bishops and laity) did not feel a need to defend it.
 
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abacabb3

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earliest ones I have seen include only 3 Maccabees. that does not mean 4 is out. back in the day, the Epistle of Clement was included in the NT, but now is not. again, that does not mean 4 Maccabees is in error any more than Clement is in error, nor does it mean the Georgians are wrong for having it. if it is Orthodox in belief, it's fine
That still does not address my question--which was the original teaching of the Apostles? How do we know which is the consensus?
 
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ArmyMatt

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That still does not address my question--which was the original teaching of the Apostles? How do we know which is the consensus?

what has been preserved by the Church from the beginning, in whatever form that takes
 
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buzuxi02

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That still does not address my question--which was the original teaching of the Apostles? How do we know which is the consensus?

Give us a hypothetical teaching that may not line up with the doctrine of the apostles and we will tell you why its not apostolic.
 
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abacabb3

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I am grateful for your replies, bear with me.

Aerial Toll Houses. Some reject, most accept, no one has been excommunicated over it. We have 4 maccabees, is it "equal" to third maccabees, is not non-canonical or deuterocanonical? I hear differences of opinion over these matters (great :) ) but no discernable way to say with absolute surety which side is continuing the apostolic traditions.

None of this is a deal breaker for me by the way, there are no deal breakers--I will submit to what is taught. But you can see how many times I asked this question, and the replies I have received appear to be deliberately not addressing the point. For Protestants impatient to work these things out intellectually or simply accept them, you will speak right past them--which inhibits the dissemination of Orthodox.
 
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ArmyMatt

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it's because the Orthodox have a differing approach. you begin with the experience of God, and then these things fall into place. for much of the academic and speculative West (which was not their perspective early on, they were inline with us in the beginning), you don't intellectually try to make sense of what is legit and what is not, and where certain things rank on the infallibility totem pole. the Holy Spirit will do that through you within the Church.
 
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buzuxi02

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Toll houses would depend on what intrrpretation is given to them. Yes one can find references to them in a few prayers and in some of the Fathers. Toll houses were never a big thing to ponder, they have become popular because Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote a book on them about 40 years ago. Obviously the book raised some eyebrows as to how they were presented. In the prayers they are more vague and subtle, their mention always taken for granted. They are understood as generic prayers to protect from the snares of the devil and his minions. No different than how we end the Lord's Prayer, "deliver us from the evil one".
 
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All4Christ

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I am grateful for your replies, bear with me.

Aerial Toll Houses. Some reject, most accept, no one has been excommunicated over it. We have 4 maccabees, is it "equal" to third maccabees, is not non-canonical or deuterocanonical? I hear differences of opinion over these matters (great :) ) but no discernable way to say with absolute surety which side is continuing the apostolic traditions.

None of this is a deal breaker for me by the way, there are no deal breakers--I will submit to what is taught. But you can see how many times I asked this question, and the replies I have received appear to be deliberately not addressing the point. For Protestants impatient to work these things out intellectually or simply accept them, you will speak right past them--which inhibits the dissemination of Orthodox.
Personally I see tollhouses as a representation of a spiritual reality, not literal tollhouses. Father Thomas Hopkins held to this interpretation, I think. Since it is in liturgical texts, it is difficult to disregard, but I don't see any dogmatic belief to require belief in a literal tollhouses...especially not to the level of Fr Seraphim Rose's interpretation.
 
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abacabb3

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I see Toll houses as what the Scripture says, we have to give an account for every idle word. The prayers of others and righteousness of Christ avail us in this judgement, while those without Christ can never give an account and are damned eternally.

That's why I was wondering whether the Orthodox view of the particular judgement corresponded with prayers for the dead/liberating souls from Hades, but the answer seemed to be that ATH and hades are two different things.
 
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abacabb3

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it's because the Orthodox have a differing approach. you begin with the experience of God, and then these things fall into place. for much of the academic and speculative West (which was not their perspective early on, they were inline with us in the beginning), you don't intellectually try to make sense of what is legit and what is not, and where certain things rank on the infallibility totem pole. the Holy Spirit will do that through you within the Church.
So, the truth is often just understood and not able to be defined. That means there are issues which may be infallible, but because they cannot be defined, they cannot be categorized authoritatively.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So, the truth is often just understood and not able to be defined. That means there are issues which may be infallible, but because they cannot be defined, they cannot be categorized authoritatively.

I would not say that per say. you are right in it being difficult to define because Truth is a Person and not an idea. so whatever points us to the Truth of Christ, Who is Truth, can be categorized because it points to Him. but you gotta know Him first, and then comes the categories.

the West nowadays often starts with the idea of God and moves from there. for us we start with God, and then all that other stuff falls into place.
 
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If you are truly interested in the Tollhouses as an issue, I can look for several special series of podcasts I listened to last year. I listened to them several times, tried to integrate that with everything I'd heard, then came here and asked lots of questions, and it all fell into place for me.

That's why I think I said earlier in this thread that it depends on WHAT you believe about them as to whether or not the Church agrees.

The Church does teach tollhouses, but a great deal of what you may find said about them is not what we actually believe in a literal sense.

I know now why my priest asked me to avoid reading about them too early on (he long since released me, but I was an inquirer at the time).

There is no widespread acceptance of the "Theodora" account in a literal sense. Even some of the things that account implies, as principles, are really quite problematic, according to several priests. I haven't read Seraphim Rose on the topic. If someone WANTS to believe in them in a literal sense, as far as I can tell, it would be allowed - as in you won't be excommunicated over it. But if you started teaching others it was completely literal, well ... I might guess your priest or bishop might have a word with you.

The most conservative and probably "consensus" approach I have distilled is this: Demons attempt to tempt, destroy, mislead, lie to us, etc. all our lives. We are always vulnerable to possible attacks by them, in whatever form the demons may attempt (by God's allowance of course). At the moment of death, the demons are seeing their last opportunity, and since it is an unknown experience for us, we are at risk to be greatly vulnerable to suggestions or experiences at that time. So it is very reasonable to expect a heightened "last ditch" attempt by the demons - to convince us God isn't real, or we've always been wrong, or God won't really forgive us nor we are too sinful, or to tempt us with those passions we won't be able to indulge anymore because we are losing our bodies, or, or, or ... So that whatever form it takes, we might expect it to be a most difficult moment. (I would say this is both a reason we pray for the dead, and also one reason we don't lightly assume anyone's salvation without proof from God after their repose - but those are my personal assumptions.)

I would say THAT is consensus about tollhouses, and meant to be believed. After all, the Church desires that we exoect this onslaught, so that we can be prepared for it.

The further you go from this, the more literal your understanding, the more - questionable? - it all becomes?

There are of course the numbered toll houses mentioned that deal with various passions/temptations/sins. But IMO that is simply a device that reminds us, when we contemplate these things to consider EVERY possible thing the demons may find in us, so that we can deal with it. I am reminded of the Ladder of Divine Ascent, which also includes numbered and named rungs of virtues. That doesn't mean there is a literal ladder, but it is a way of helping us to think of how these virtues build on one another, how we might typically progress through them, and to be reminded to think of them all.

In this way, the non-literal aspects can be "true" but not literal in the sense of actual physical buildings in the sky manned by demons that we must pass through in peril.

It was something I struggled a bit with, so lmk if you want links to those podcasts and I'll look for them. They weren't all about tollhouses, but about the afterlife, the eschaton, death, etc. but tollhouses did get referenced and explained there. It is overall quite a few hours of listening though. But gives a very good overview of these kinds of topics as a whole.

I do remember when I mentioned it at first to my priest (just one of them) his response was something like "how did they teach for seven hours on the afterlife - we don't know THAT much?" But it really is an interweaving of many related topics.
 
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abacabb3

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I would not say that per say. you are right in it being difficult to define because Truth is a Person and not an idea. so whatever points us to the Truth of Christ, Who is Truth, can be categorized because it points to Him. but you gotta know Him first, and then comes the categories.

the West nowadays often starts with the idea of God and moves from there. for us we start with God, and then all that other stuff falls into place.
Well, this is getting tough, I thought what I said was re-stating your meaning. I gave two doctrines (canon, ath) and i trust your experience, so tell me as you understand it the proper categories?
 
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I wonder if it's in the tendency of the west to make rules, define, categorize, number, etc. where in Orthodoxy it's more a "big picture" thing?

That was my experience. I don't have words to explain it, but Orthodoxy is like an "aha!" moment where it all FITS and makes sense. Understanding creation fits into understanding death, and understanding tollhouses fits into understanding prayer, and the web just keeps making more and more connections, but it all makes sense.

My experience with Protestantism was fragmented by comparison. I think that's why some doctrines can seem to contradict, and they try to start with blocks and build something up and make logical inferences, but the result is ... inelegant, chopped up, sometimes contradictory.

But this seems to be how Truth is recognized. It is, and has been, part of the whole. I don't say that something new could be introduced and sound good and fit, so it becomes accepted as true. The novelty would prevent that, I think. But as I begin to understand more and more things, I am better able to recognize consensus, then when I check up on it (because I still do), I learn my instincts are right, and they have been informed by what I have managed to take on of the mind of the Church.

Not sure if this makes sense to an inquirer or a long-time Orthodox either one, since I am between those two. But this is my best attempt to explain a kind of phenomena I've found.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Well, this is getting tough, I thought what I said was re-stating your meaning. I gave two doctrines (canon, ath) and i trust your experience, so tell me as you understand it the proper categories?

as an example, if I wanted to know you, I would do just that. seek communion and experience of you as a person. usually then you would show me hardline, factual, "infallible" stuff like where you graduated, what jobs you have had, who you married, etc. but I start with coming to know you. if I started only with documents, and did not know you and therefore did not know how to piece them together, I could get off track.

so, say, you had a picture taking a drink of beer, and it was in mid-swig. I could wrongly infer that you have a drinking issue, even though that one snapshot was taken one of the occasional casual times you drink. however, if I come to know you first, and then you show me the picture, I would know that this was just something casual.

the problem with the West is since they have left the Church, most only struggle with the photo and its meaning, and don't come to know the person
 
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