The Israeli Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinian Christians that nobody is talking about

[mindlight]

Oh, right, someone who has no connection or understanding of the situation, from Germany nonetheless... Too much. I guess the Christians (including clergy) in all the videos throughout this thread are lying since you simply choose to believe they are.

I'd prefer more serious discussion than just a form of burying your head in the sand and not wanting to believe it.

So no bodies then?

 

[dzheremi]

God gave the land to the Jews, there has never been an independent Palestinian state.

This is specious reasoning. There never was an independent 'Israeli' state, either -- until there was.

This place was prosperous under the Christian Byzantines, suffered slow decline thereafter under Muslim rule as its Christian majority was steadily eroded and was a backwater under the Muslim Ottomans but never an independent state.

Again, the Jews never had an independent state, either. What's your point?

The suffering of the Palestinian people is partly caused by the fact that Egypt and Jordan refused to recognise them as their own citizens caging them into the lands they now occupy.

So it's other states' fault that the Palestinians have been made refugees by the creation of Israel in 1948? How do you figure? What role did Egypt or Jordan have in the creation of the state of Israel (the thing that made Palestinians refugees in the first place)?

The Jews are not going anywhere and the non Jews in Israel would better prosper if they cooperated with the Jewish state rather than rebelled against it.

Nobody said the Jews would be 'going anywhere'. In reality, it is the Palestinians who were forced from their land to create Israel, not the other way around.

 

[mindlight]

This is specious reasoning. There never was an independent 'Israeli' state, either -- until there was.

Did you miss the account of the David and Solomon and then the kingdoms of Israel and Judah that followed them. Did you miss the Maccabees, the brief illfated rebellion against Roman rule 66-70AD and a brief period of Jewish autonomy under the Sasins in which the Jews tried to rebuild the temple.

Again, the Jews never had an independent state, either. What's your point?

See above, they have an historic claim to the land and yes there has been both a Hebrew and a Jewish state in the area.

So it's other states' fault that the Palestinians have been made refugees by the creation of Israel in 1948? How do you figure? What role did Egypt or Jordan have in the creation of the state of Israel (the thing that made Palestinians refugees in the first place)?

These were Egyptian citizens in Gaza and Jordanian on the West bank. But they have refused integration and indeed mobility to these countries. It is a horrible situation created by the surrounding Arab powers that refuse to accept defeat in the various wars they initiated to destroy Israel in 48, 67 and 73. Those Palestinians that left their homes in Palestine did so in hatred and fear of Jews and with deep anti- semitic prejudices engrained in their lives. They should be compensated for the loss of property but the state of Israel will not be viable if they are allowed to return.

Nobody said the Jews would be 'going anywhere'. In reality, it is the Palestinians who were forced from their land to create Israel, not the other way around.

They left expecting the Arab armies to destroy the new Jewish state and so they backed the losing side. Why should Jews fresh from the holocaust allow the return of people dedicated to throwing them out of their new safe haven and into the sea.

 

[dzheremi]

Did you miss the account of the David and Solomon and then the kingdoms of Israel and Judah that followed them.

Oh, excuse me; I was unaware that using the same name made them the same state. I'm sure the Zionists will be very happy to know that their political project ought to encompass not just the territory of the modern state of Israel, but also contiguous parts of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt (nevermind that Egypt and Syria were already existing states . Maybe all of the people in those countries ought to "cooperate with the Jews" in leaving their own homelands, too? Nevermind that Egypt was unified in 3100 BC, and that the ruins of Ebla in northern Syria indicate that its earliest city-states were established 3000 BC, both of which greatly predate the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel in 1047 BC. I'm sure the Egyptians and Syrians won't mind leaving forever so that the Zionists can pretend that they've been magically transported back to 1047 BC.

(And, for the benefit of everyone who may read this: I think going back to any date with "BC" after it as a reason for why a certain group of people or state have an inalienable right to be in location X is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, but when you're dealing with a person who feels the need to invoke the OT as establishing modern political realities, probably the only way you can get them to see how ridiculous that is is to do it even harder, so if the 10th century BC is good, then surely 2,000+ years earlier must be even better, right?)

Did you miss the Maccabees, the brief illfated rebellion against Roman rule 66-70AD and a brief period of Jewish autonomy under the Sasins in which the Jews tried to rebuild the temple.

Did you miss that a rebellion doesn't automatically create or legitimize the creation of a state? I mean, if it did, you'd kind of be obligated to support Palestinian statehood, rather than arguing that Palestinians shouldn't rebel against Israel, as you actually did.

That is, if you wanted to be consistent.

See above, they have an historic claim to the land and yes there has been both a Hebrew and a Jewish state in the area.

When did I say that there had never been Jews in the area? Of course there have always been Jews in the area, so far back anyone should care (for the purposes of arguing about who should be where). The same is true of Assyrians, however, so why do the Jews get a state and they don't? After all, if we're going to manufacture land claims out of the Bible, it was the Assyrians who were the used as the rod of God's anger. Yet they are an even older civilization than the Jews, and they still don't have an independent state of their own. The British handed Mesopotamia over to the Arabs, and the world sat its hands as the Turks and Kurds did as they wished to them over and over in the genocides in the 1800s and early 1900s, all long before the European holocaust that is actually behind the recognition of the Jewish state.

These were Egyptian citizens in Gaza and Jordanian on the West bank. But they have refused integration and indeed mobility to these countries. It is a horrible situation created by the surrounding Arab powers that refuse to accept defeat in the various wars they initiated to destroy Israel in 48, 67 and 73. Those Palestinians that left their homes in Palestine did so in hatred and fear of Jews and with deep anti- semitic prejudices engrained in their lives. They should be compensated for the loss of property but the state of Israel will not be viable if they are allowed to return.

So I take from this that you didn't watch the video of Abp. Elias Chacour? That's a shame, as he was actually there when Israel was being created, and he explains in the talk I shared how it was understood by Palestinians at the time, and how their leaving their homes was actually a humanitarian gesture on their part towards the Jews. Of course I don't know if every village got the same explanation or just Christian ones like the one he is from, but the point is that all of this stuff about "Palestinians that left their homes hatred and fear and with deep anti-semitic prejudices" is not true according to the people who actually left their homes.

They left expecting the Arab armies to destroy the new Jewish state and so they backed the losing side.

No. This may be true of some of the specific groups started later to fight against Israel, but this is not the story as told by people who were there at the state's founding. Again, please watch the video of HG for a Christian Palestinian perspective.

Why should Jews fresh from the holocaust allow the return of people dedicated to throwing them out of their new safe haven and into the sea.

Because that's a false narrative, and everyone (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Arab, Armenian, Syriac, etc.) who is connected to the land should be allowed to live there as equal citizens of a multi-religious, multi-ethnic country that all have an equal stake and equal pride in.

 

[mindlight]

Oh, excuse me; I was unaware that using the same name made them the same state. I'm sure the Zionists will be very happy to know that their political project ought to encompass not just the territory of the modern state of Israel, but also contiguous parts of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt (nevermind that Egypt and Syria were already existing states .

The borders of the various Israeli states varied but the main point here is that the land has known a Hebrew/Jewish state many times in its history but never an independent Palestinian one. Also this gift of land to people is a unique bible promise to the Hebrews.

Maybe all of the people in those countries ought to "cooperate with the Jews" in leaving their own homelands, too? Nevermind that Egypt was unified in 3100 BC, and that the ruins of Ebla in northern Syria indicate that its earliest city-states were established 3000 BC, both of which greatly predate the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel in 1047 BC. I'm sure the Egyptians and Syrians won't mind leaving forever so that the Zionists can pretend that they've been magically transported back to 1047 BC.

The Jewish claim rests in God who was there before Egypt. Land was taken from the one and given to the other according to Gods will. The land was lost for 2000 years due to the sin of the Jews.

(And, for the benefit of everyone who may read this: I think going back to any date with "BC" after it as a reason for why a certain group of people or state have an inalienable right to be in location X is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, but when you're dealing with a person who feels the need to invoke the OT as establishing modern political realities, probably the only way you can get them to see how ridiculous that is is to do it even harder, so if the 10th century BC is good, then surely 2,000+ years earlier must be even better, right?)

When a claim rests in eternity then AD or BC do not really matter do they.

Did you miss that a rebellion doesn't automatically create or legitimize the creation of a state? I mean, if it did, you'd kind of be obligated to support Palestinian statehood, rather than arguing that Palestinians shouldn't rebel against Israel, as you actually did.

That is, if you wanted to be consistent.

Authority and order are what God ordains not what man decides. Rebellion without rhyme or reason can be objected to while still affirming the Jews own right to their land. But must admit Jewish terrorism during the British mandate almost sabotaged their legitimate claim to the land. The Palestinians have no scriptures to call on for this land. They came from all over originally with the various empires that occupied the land but they have no intrinsic right to it. They have multiplied in the context of the Jewish state.

When did I say that there had never been Jews in the area? Of course there have always been Jews in the area, so far back anyone should care (for the purposes of arguing about who should be where). The same is true of Assyrians, however, so why do the Jews get a state and they don't? After all, if we're going to manufacture land claims out of the Bible, it was the Assyrians who were the used as the rod of God's anger. Yet they are an even older civilization than the Jews, and they still don't have an independent state of their own. The British handed Mesopotamia over to the Arabs, and the world sat its hands as the Turks and Kurds did as they wished to them over and over in the genocides in the 1800s and early 1900s, all long before the European holocaust that is actually behind the recognition of the Jewish state.

Do I need to legitimate the actions of Ottoman imperialists massacring Christians throughout their empire. The Assyrians were no less cruel in their day. But the land was not given to them though control of it was overthrown due to their sins.

So I take from this that you didn't watch the video of Abp. Elias Chacour? That's a shame, as he was actually there when Israel was being created, and he explains in the talk I shared how it was understood by Palestinians at the time, and how their leaving their homes was actually a humanitarian gesture on their part towards the Jews. Of course I don't know if every village got the same explanation or just Christian ones like the one he is from, but the point is that all of this stuff about "Palestinians that left their homes hatred and fear and with deep anti-semitic prejudices" is not true according to the people who actually left their homes.

We rewrite our memories according to the agenda of the present and that is what these testimonies sound like this to me. But I agree that the greatest tragedy in Palestine is the displacement of Christians. When I was in Israel I shared the gospel with an Arab boy. The boy told me he was a Christian and I asked why then he had been making the comments he made about the Jews. He laughed and said, "Muslims and Christians both throw stones at the soldiers". It seemed to me that there was no place in Christian or Muslim Palestinians minds for the Jews. They just do not fit and have disturbed the millennia old reality of their displacement and low status in the region. Christian Arabs that join the IDF or who worship with Jewish Christians have a better grasp on Gods will in the area.

No. This may be true of some of the specific groups started later to fight against Israel, but this is not the story as told by people who were there at the state's founding. Again, please watch the video of HG for a Christian Palestinian perspective.

I will give the video a go.

Because that's a false narrative, and everyone (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Arab, Armenian, Syriac, etc.) who is connected to the land should be allowed to live there as equal citizens of a multi-religious, multi-ethnic country that all have an equal stake and equal pride in.

Come on that is not a realistic proposition, the hatreds run too deep, the wounds are too severe and deep and only the true Messiah can resolve them and bring healing to the region.

 

[mindlight]

As one of those vaguely-sourced 'African proverbs' puts it, when elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.



I posted the Kairos Palestine video a little while ago that gives a good overview across most of the communities. For a more in depth and decidedly more personal explanation from that might be of particular interest to you as a Catholic from someone who predates the establishment of Israel itself, here's the aforementioned Abp. Chacour speaking before the Presbyterian Global Leadership Conference in the USA several years ago. I think HG makes some good points.

It is an interesting and compelling video. Christian Palestinians in their own villages may well have been sympathetic to Jews that had survived the Satanic plots of Hitler in the land of darkness in Europe. Also in the context of war some Jewish commanders may have failed to distinguish Arab friend from Arab foe and penalised the two together. Israel today seems more sympathetic to Christians who could have been natural allies to them in the creation and defence of their new safe haven. There were considerable differences between different Jewish militias in 48 also and the approach of some was too heavily brutalised by the experience of European pogroms, Holocaust and the struggle for independence to think clearly. But as the man said both Jew and Arab are children of Abraham and Christians and Jews ought to be able to find more common ground now that Israel is strong and established and can revisit the errors made in its establishment with more wisdom and honesty.

 

[dzheremi]

The borders of the various Israeli states varied but the main point here is that the land has known a Hebrew/Jewish state many times in its history but never an independent Palestinian one. Also this gift of land to people is a unique bible promise to the Hebrews.

If you watched the Kairos Palestine video I linked earlier, you'd know that this is not some kind of default Christian reading of the relevant scripture. That's the Christian Zionist reading of scripture common to western Evangelicals, which Palestinians (even the Evangelical ones) cannot be assumed to agree with because "that's what scripture says". No.

Plus, y'know...the majority of Palestinians are Muslims, and there are also Jews in various parts of the world who are anti-Zionist. This simplistic "The Bible says" blanket statement doesn't actually work out for either side on the ground.

The Jewish claim rests in God who was there before Egypt. Land was taken from the one and given to the other according to Gods will. The land was lost for 2000 years due to the sin of the Jews.

And then suddenly, in 1946, God changed His mind about terrorism because Jews were doing it!

I love it how for Zionists God's morality is apparently subservient to what Jews are doing, but only when it serves the Zionist narrative to be so. First He takes the land away for 2,000 years because the Jews aren't acting right, then when they decide to go on terrorism campaigns, he gives them the land back, and when they bulldoze Palestinian homes and build settlements there, he's totally fine with it. What a great God these Jews have! He seems to be on their side in absolutely everything ever since 'he' gave them their state back (nevermind things like the Balfour Declaration...or did God write that himself?), no matter what it is!

It's very convenient, but very against the actual God of the Old Testament, who (for instance) did not allow Moses to enter the promised land...and I don't think anyone can claim Moses was somehow not a Jew, since he did very pivotal things for the Israel of the Old Testament.

When a claim rests in eternity then AD or BC do not really matter do they.

They seem to matter to the people who want to claim the pre-1948 existence of a Jewish state. "Look how far back it goes!", as though there is a direct line between the two. Sorry, the modern, secular state of Israel is not akin to Egypt or Ethiopia.

Authority and order are what God ordains not what man decides.

Uh huh...Орденоносный господь победоносного мира...

Rebellion without rhyme or reason can be objected to while still affirming the Jews own right to their land. But must admit Jewish terrorism during the British mandate almost sabotaged their legitimate claim to the land.

Ohhh, only ALMOST! Silly me for invoking it earlier, then. I guess terrorism is really a matter of degree, and 91 people dead just doesn't cut it. Okay, then.

Say, how many Israelis were killed by Palestinians in 2019? Do you know?

From what I could find the answer is 10.

How many Palestinians were killed by Israelis in 2019?

149.

That must've been a slow year, though, because if 91 lives lost in a hotel bombing isn't terrorism, then it doesn't seem very hard to argue that 149 isn't, either. If nearly 100 lives is not enough, then we must need a lot more lives for it to count, right?

So let's look at a really bad year, when Palestinians were being especially naughty.

As per the same link, the largest number of Israeli deaths at the hands of Palestinians since 2000 (the beginning of the chart) happened in 2002, when Palestinians killed 420 Israelis. That's a lot. Maybe someone could even make the argument from such a large number that the Israelis were somehow justified in killing the 1,033 Palestinians they killed that year. Maybe Israeli lives are just worth more than double that of Palestinians.

But if we are to excuse such disparities because there was a large amount of killing of Israelis by Palestinians that year, then what are we to make of a year like 2014, when 84 Israelis were killed by Palestinians, but 2,285 Palestinians were killed by Israelis?

I guess some years Israeli lives are 27 times more valuable than Palestinian ones.

The Palestinians have no scriptures to call on for this land.

So if they had 'scriptures' that gave them a reason to claim the land, you'd believe them?

Why do I find that hard to believe...

They came from all over originally with the various empires that occupied the land but they have no intrinsic right to it.

So did the Jews! How many Yemenite Jews came to Israel? How many Iraqi Jews? How many European Jews? Etc., etc. That's most of Israel's population. Jews were not a majority in Palestine until after the founding of Israel.

They have multiplied in the context of the Jewish state.

They already 'multiplied' before the Jewish state.

Do I need to legitimate the actions of Ottoman imperialists massacring Christians throughout their empire.

You would.

The Assyrians were no less cruel in their day. But the land was not given to them though control of it was overthrown due to their sins.

Again, but the Jews get to sin all they want, because "God gave them the land."

What a terrible God the Zionist's God is.

We rewrite our memories according to the agenda of the present and that is what these testimonies sound like this to me.

Why are you opining about this apparently before watching the video?

But I agree that the greatest tragedy in Palestine is the displacement of Christians. When I was in Israel I shared the gospel with an Arab boy. The boy told me he was a Christian and I asked why then he had been making the comments he made about the Jews. He laughed and said, "Muslims and Christians both throw stones at the soldiers". It seemed to me that there was no place in Christian or Muslim Palestinians minds for the Jews. They just do not fit and have disturbed the millennia old reality of their displacement and low status in the region. Christian Arabs that join the IDF or who worship with Jewish Christians have a better grasp on Gods will in the area.

Yeah...if your God recruits for the IDF!

I will give the video a go.

Uh huh...but first you'll comment on how false and biased it is, like you did above!

What a crock. You have no consistency at all, except maybe "the Jews can do no wrong since they've gotten 'their land' back".

Come on that is not a realistic proposition, the hatreds run too deep, the wounds are too severe and deep and only the true Messiah can resolve them and bring healing to the region.

How is it that we're constantly told that Israel is the one shining beacon of democracy and freedom and western values in the region, but when we actually expect them to behave like a free, democratic country that embraces western values, we suddenly get responses like this? "Come on that is not realistic"...well, maybe not, but you can't have it both ways! Why can't Israel be as free as the West? Because the Palestinians are there, or because it is an inherently unjust ethnoreligiously-based, religiously-exclusionary state, ultimately no different in that regard than the worst of the Muslim-majority, Arab (or Persian) supremacist states it is surrounded by?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Can I lend my voice here? Just a bit..

I am formerly Muslim who was saved and came to Christ.

The whole boycott Israel thing has a long history, for instance I've never had a Starbucks coffee, and hatred of the Jewish state has a long history too..

but, you know, then I was saved. And what I saw after I was saved was something oddly different. No more hate. (that was weird for me, difficult to explain as I never even realized I did hate them so much was it a part of my mind and heart)

But everything I ever thought or felt or believed suddenly and completely changed in the space of a heartbeat. And I saw a different picture of the Jewish and Palestinian conflict.

The issue isn't any longer who was right or who was wrong or who did what to whom, when why or how. The issue is perpetual victimhood (on both sides) at this point, and scars that are deep on both sides..

They are both lost, both the Jews and the Muslims, and need something far deeper. They are lost, broken people groping around in the dark... the blind leading the blind fighting over dirt that God abandoned long ago, and people who want to join the fight for dirt are just as lost.

The conflict won't end without God I fear, because only God can change hearts and minds... I'd love to see it change, love to see a peace but so long as they are concerned with dirt and not God it won't happen.

They are both wrong, both have sins, and both sides need God - the God I found, or who, more accurately, found me.

We as Christians shouldn't be blind to that, we should work only for a workable solution for both sides if we are to work for anything, and more than anything share Christ with the lost in love.

I love them both, the Jews and the Muslims and my heart breaks for them all.. and God loves them more than all that..

Running around playing blame games and such does nothing but feed a beast we shouldn't feed. There are two sides, and two stories, and neither is more important than the other.. both are equally lost, both equally in need.

Anyway, I'll leave now. Just wanted to mention... I think we need to be the balance, if we are to be anything at all in this war.

 

[dzheremi]

Ugh. We need the buttons back! I just went to give Hazelelponi's post a "Winner" rating, but nope!

 

[Hazelelponi]

Ugh. We need the buttons back! I just went to give Hazelelponi's post a "Winner" rating, but nope!

Yeah that we do.. I keep going to rate posts to no avail as well, it's becoming frustrating.. haha.

well here is my rating for your post:

 

[dzheremi]