The Israeli Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinian Christians that nobody is talking about

[Phronema]

Palestine allowing Hamas to come in and fire missiles into Israel on a regular basis is not the answer either.

I agree, but the creation of a Palestinian state would alleviate much of the violence in that area in my opinion.

 

[Charlie24]

How did Christ treat those who killed Him? That should be our model. And it's not like non-Muslims are only mistreated in Palestine. Look at Egypt, look at Iran, look at Turkey, look at Pakistan...lots of Muslim-majority nations mistreat their Christian minorities, to varying degrees depending on certain factors (e.g., I bet it is easier to be an Armenian Apostolic Christian in Iran than it is to be a former Muslim who has joined one of the house churches there).

Yet for some reason only in the case of Israel does this reality get trotted out as an excuse for the state to be a festering pile of garbage. Nobody says of Pakistan "It's justifiable that they treat Christians like crap because PM Modi of India introduced that law recently that angered Muslims by privileging non-Muslim minorities from Muslim-majority countries in applications for citizenship!"



Reasoned like a Young Turk on the eve of the genocides.



For someone who recognizes it as a complicated situation, you sure are proposing an easy -- some might say intellectually lazy -- answer to it.

If Palestine wanted peace they could have it in 24hrs. They don't want it, they are hellbent on destruction so Israel is giving it to them. All I have to say!!!

 

[dzheremi]

If Palestine wanted peace they could have it in 24hrs. They don't want it, they are hellbent on destruction so Israel is giving it to them. All I have to say!!!

Okay...so it's...good that Christians are mistreated by Israel, because that's what Palestinians want?

What?

Have you ever met a Palestinian Christian in your life? I don't know any that are "hellbent on destruction". Many are involved on some level in the peace process, some quite famously so (e.g., HG Elias Chacour, archbishop of Galilee of the Greek Catholics, who has written several books on the situation).

 

[Charlie24]

Okay...so it's...good that Christians are mistreated by Israel, because that's what Palestinians want?

What?

Have you ever met a Palestinian Christian in your life? I don't know any that are "hellbent on destruction". Many are involved on some level in the peace process, some quite famously so (e.g., HG Elias Chacour, archbishop of Galilee of the Greek Catholics, who has written several books on the situation).

That's not what I said and that's not what I meant.

You are being unreasonable now.

 

[dzheremi]

That's not what I said and that's not what I meant.

You are being unreasonable now.

I know that's not what you said. It is nevertheless what the thread is about: Palestinian Christians and their mistreatment by Israel, not Palestinian Muslims.

Nobody was talking about how bad Muslim Palestinians supposedly are until you posted.

 

[thecolorsblend]

There's a type of Christian who would rather swallow glass than criticize Israel.

Sad, really.

You lost all credibility with that one. Sad really.

What did I say that is factually incorrect?

 

[Charlie24]

I know that's not what you said. It is nevertheless what the thread is about: Palestinian Christians and their mistreatment by Israel, not Palestinian Muslims.

Nobody was talking about how bad Muslim Palestinians supposedly are until you posted.

I was making the point that this article in the OP is only half the story.

Let's tell the whole story. It's not all about the Palestinians.

 

[creslaw]

I was making the point that this article in the OP is only half the story.

Let's tell the whole story. It's not all about the Palestinians.

Any story that tells only one side is biased ... and therefore not really factual.

 

[Mathetes66]

The writer of the OP website is a Muslim & champions Muslims around the world. His article is bias in my opinioin & does not accurately represent all that is going on with Christians there.

Unfounded claims that Palestinian Christians are leaving because of religious tensions between them and their Muslim brethren are, therefore, irrelevant.

It IS relevant according to Palestinian Christian testimony.

A study conducted by Dar al-Kalima University in the West Bank town of Beit Jala and published in December 2017, interviewed nearly 1,000 Palestinians, half of them Christian & the other half Muslim.

These come from the posted OP article & wants to shift the blame 100% on Israel. The second is a study by Muslims, not Christians. Though Israel shoulders blame on some things, one needs ACCURATE INFORMATION concerning what is actually happening there & the historical record concerning persecution from the PA, from Israel, from established Orthodox & Catholic churches..

Bethlehem

Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus, has been under Palestinian Authority since 1995 & under Islamic terrorist rule under Hamas. Israel built a fence around Bethlehem & kept it outside Israeli control & under Palestinian Authority control.

Although both websites show that in general the western Christian world seems not to care about the plight of Christians there, there reporting of facts is different & the reasons for why numbers are dwindling.

• Bethlehem was 90% Christian, 10% Muslim, in the 19th century.
• Bethlehem was 85% Christian in 1948.
• Bethlehem was 54% Christian in 1967.
• Bethlehem was handed over to Palestinian Authority rule in 1995.
• Bethlehem was 40 percent Christian in 1998.
• Bethlehem was 15 percent Christian in 2009.
• Bethlehem was 12 percent Christian in 2016.

Report in 1868 that Bethlehem is 98% Christian.
From p.116 of The Olive Leaf: A Pilgrimage to Rome, Jerusalem, and Constantinople by William Wyndham Malet (1868).

Report in 1871 that Bethlehem is 90 to 93% Christian.
From p.148 of Eastern Sketches by Ellen Clare Miller (1871)

ZLM Video: “The Palestinian Zionist”

He's been shot at four times, one of the bullets hitting him in the shoulder. His Bethlehem church has been bombed 14 times. The Palestinian Authority (PA) told Dr. Khoury that his church is not officially recognized by the government or licensed to issue marriage documents. This hasn’t stopped Pastor Khoury from preaching God’s Word to his growing congregation. 65% of them are unemployed. But still he persists. Who is this courageous Christian in the midst of his Muslim & Orthodox & Jewish neighbors? Pastor Naim Khoury (N'IME KOO-ree). He says, 'What Christian people go through here is not a joke.'

Unlike traditional churches like the Greek Orthodox & Catholics, Evangelical churches in the Palestinian Territories are not officially recognized & therefore things like marriage documents are not considered legitimate by government authorities.

They have the freedom to worship, but are not “official.” This goes back all the way to the Ottoman Empire days & then the British mandate & only the thirteen churches that were recognized back then continue to have recognition in Palestine, Jordan & Israel. This is not limited to the Palestinian Authority; evangelical churches are also not recognized & are not fairing any better by the State of Israel.

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The Katanacho Family

 

[Mathetes66]

What did I say that is factually incorrect?

I quoted exactly what you said. You are a smart man. You can figure it out.

 

[Hank77]

I quoted exactly what you said. You are a smart man. You can figure it out.

I'm not that smart and I'd like to know too, I've been waiting for him to respond and you to reply.
So what did he say that is not factual?

 

[crossnote]

Name one Jew in a Muslim country that is an office holder yet many Arabs hold office in the Israeli Knesset. Jews have been pretty much cleansed from Muslim countries.

 

[dzheremi]

The writer of the OP website is a Muslim & champions Muslims around the world. His article is bias in my opinioin & does not accurately represent all that is going on with Christians there.



It IS relevant according to Palestinian Christian testimony.



These come from the posted OP article & wants to shift the blame 100% on Israel. The second is a study by Muslims, not Christians. Though Israel shoulders blame on some things, one needs ACCURATE INFORMATION concerning what is actually happening there & the historical record concerning persecution from the PA, from Israel, from established Orthodox & Catholic churches..

Alright, let's go over a few things so far.

For one thing, Palestinian Christian testimony can't be limited to only the types of Christians we like best. You've made a bit of a deal out of how Evangelical churches aren't treated the same as Catholic or Orthodox churches (though that's not true, that's apparently quite a recent change for most of them), which even if we take that as a given does nothing to silence or dampen the testimony given by the preexisting Catholic and Orthodox communities, who have their own stories to tell, are likewise Palestinians, and who sometimes do report that unfair treatment by Israel is what is making them contemplate leaving. (See Walid El Shatleh's story here.)

Even more to the point, and against the supposed division between the established communities and the more recent Protestant sects, grassroots multi-confessional Palestinian Christian organizations like Kairos have for several years now worked to present a Christian voice concerning the Palestinian situation, not demonizing anyone but asking us as Christians to reconsider what we think we know about it:

That you apparently show such reverence for the truth and accurate information is commendable, but is somewhat tarnished by the story you have chosen to present as being accurate information via the CBN video. If I wanted to respond the way you have, I would say "But CBN is a conservative Evangelical Christian broadcaster based in the USA, so obviously champion that viewpoint, so it is biased." Much more worrying than that along these lines, however, is the way that the CBN story (while simultaneously making use of footage from what appears to be local Eastern Orthodox or Catholic churches...) relies so heavily on the commentary of one Justus Weiner from the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. The JCPA is an Israeli think tank which Wiki describes in the following manner:

The JCPA has been described as neo-conservative.[7] It has been headed since 2000 by "Netanyahu confidante" Dore Gold.[15] In 2015 Haaretz identified Sheldon Adelson as "one of the main financers of JCPA in recent years";[15] Adelson is an American billionaire casino magnate, staunch supporter of Jewish settlement of the West Bank and biggest contributor to US Republicans in the 2018 US midterm elections during President Donald Trump's mandate.[8]​

Hmmm...a neo-conservative think tank run by a confidante of Netanyahu and financed by an American billionaire who is in favor of Israeli settlements and Donald Trump. You don't think any of those positions could color the way that the center analyzes the situation in Palestine, do you? Is it only Muslims who can show bias?

Bethlehem

Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus, has been under Palestinian Authority since 1995 & under Islamic terrorist rule under Hamas. Israel built a fence around Bethlehem & kept it outside Israeli control & under Palestinian Authority control.

Although both websites show that in general the western Christian world seems not to care about the plight of Christians there, there reporting of facts is different & the reasons for why numbers are dwindling.

• Bethlehem was 90% Christian, 10% Muslim, in the 19th century.
• Bethlehem was 85% Christian in 1948.
• Bethlehem was 54% Christian in 1967.

Why would numbers not decrease when an entirely new state is built on top of where you're already living (1948), leading to the liquidation of many villages (including entirely Christian villages), the occupation of many others, the forced land seizure, etc.? And then on top of that, there's another war (1967). Wars are not great for stability, of course, but to look at things like this as though they are somehow evidence that it is Muslims' fault is sort of like claiming that Lebanese Muslims turned especially evil in starting in 1975 (why only then?) with the outbreak of war, and that's what's to blame for Lebanon not having a Christian majority anymore, and not the fact that...y'know...there was a war. And Christians are generally better connected outside of the Middle East for a variety of reasons, and more economically mobile, so they tend to leave in larger numbers. (They also tend to have smaller families overall, what with the stricter divorce law, no polygamy, long fasting periods in some churches, etc.)

• Bethlehem was handed over to Palestinian Authority rule in 1995.
• Bethlehem was 40 percent Christian in 1998.
• Bethlehem was 15 percent Christian in 2009.
• Bethlehem was 12 percent Christian in 2016.

Didn't Israel start building its security wall in late 1994? Hmmm...

Anyway, looking at things in this way does nothing but obscure the multitude of factors that have helped to cause this situation.

For more information on why immigration has affected Christians in Palestine more than others, everyone should look at this report by the Holy Land Christian Ecumenical Foundation (via the Wayback Machine).

Report in 1868 that Bethlehem is 98% Christian.
From p.116 of The Olive Leaf: A Pilgrimage to Rome, Jerusalem, and Constantinople by William Wyndham Malet (1868).

Report in 1871 that Bethlehem is 90 to 93% Christian.
From p.148 of Eastern Sketches by Ellen Clare Miller (1871)

And all of Palestine was also 0% Israel at both of those times, too. What's your point?

ZLM Video: “The Palestinian Zionist”

He's been shot at four times, one of the bullets hitting him in the shoulder. His Bethlehem church has been bombed 14 times.

Yikes. That's no good.

The Palestinian Authority (PA) told Dr. Khoury that his church is not officially recognized by the government or licensed to issue marriage documents. This hasn’t stopped Pastor Khoury from preaching God’s Word to his growing congregation.

Good.

65% of them are unemployed.

Do you think this could have something to do with why Palestinian Christians leave? If you have a higher than average education than most people in your society but still can't find work, you're probably more willing to leave to find a way to live.

Pastor Naim Khoury (N'IME KOO-ree).

Hehehe. No.

He says, 'What Christian people go through here is not a joke.'

Unlike traditional churches like the Greek Orthodox & Catholics, Evangelical churches in the Palestinian Territories are not officially recognized & therefore things like marriage documents are not considered legitimate by government authorities.

They have the freedom to worship, but are not “official.” This goes back all the way to the Ottoman Empire days & then the British mandate & only the thirteen churches that were recognized back then continue to have recognition in Palestine, Jordan & Israel. This is not limited to the Palestinian Authority; evangelical churches are also not recognized & are not fairing any better by the State of Israel.

Okay then. Given that last line, I don't see what this has to do with anything, seeing as how it's apparently the same in Israel.

concerning persecution from the PA, from Israel, from established Orthodox & Catholic churches..

I highly doubt that the established Orthodox and Catholic churches are in the position to persecute fellow Christians in Palestine, even if they wanted to. It is much more common that Israelis get involved in and mess with local churches and clergy, as has happened in both the Greek Orthodox Church (Israeli land developers buying land that wasn't for sale via backdoor deals with some Greek clergy) and in my own (Israeli police have been caught on camera several times assaulting Coptic clergy, sometimes in connection to peaceful protests over the situation with Deir El Sultan monastery and sometimes not for reasons that are not clear; one happened about 6 years ago to one Abouna Arsanios who was trying to go to the church to pray at Easter and that resulted in official an official apology from Israel after the video got out and Egyptian politicians and even the sheikh of El Azhar complained).

None of this is to say that Palestinian Evangelicals shouldn't have the right to preach or anything like that. The point is that official or non-official, the Israeli state doesn't favor Christians by any stretch of the imagination. Just consider how they don't accept aliyah from Messianic Jews. Those are the most deliberately Jewish of all, but nope...Israel will tell you if you're Jewish enough to live on somebody else's land, and if the answer is no, then you have to go.

 

[dzheremi]

Name one Jew in a Muslim country that is an office holder yet many Arabs hold office in the Israeli Knesset. Jews have been pretty much cleansed from Muslim countries.

The Jewish community of Iran has a representative in the country's parliament. It is currently a man named Siamak Moreh Sedgh. Andre Azoulay is a native Morrocan Jew and a senior adviser to King Mohammed VI, though I don't know if that's an office or not, since I have no idea how Morocco's monarchy works.

 

[Oldmantook]

I certainly do feel sorry for the Christians.

But Palestine is also inhabited by Muslims that have sworn the annihilation of the Jews. They work toward that promise everyday.

The case for Israel is just as compelling as this article you presented.

This is heartbreaking indeed. But this article is one of the results of a much larger picture.

Israel receives all the blame in the view of many, and this ought not be.

There is a difference between Israel and Zionism. It is Zionism that deserves all the blame.

 

[ChicanaRose]

It's a wonderful news that more Palestinians are coming to Christ!
Yet they are not immune from persecutions that Christians face. May God deliver and protect them!

 

[ChicanaRose]

The Israeli Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinian Christians that nobody is talking about

So do we Christians care about this or are we content to let politics override the well-being of our Christian brethren?

Thank you for this. Yes, we should care since they are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Aussie Pete]

There's a type of Christian who would rather swallow glass than criticize Israel.

Sad, really.

The Israeli Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinian Christians that nobody is talking about

So do we Christians care about this or are we content to let politics override the well-being of our Christian brethren?

Palestinians treat Palestinian Christians far worse than the Israelis do. That does not excuse mistreatment of any kind, but let's keep it real.

 

[dzheremi]

There is a difference between Israel and Zionism. It is Zionism that deserves all the blame.

What exactly is that difference? Zionism is the political movement to establish and defend a sovereign state for the Jewish people in what was thought of by its proponents as the traditional land of the Jewish people.

That state is the modern state of Israel, established in Palestine in 1948.

 

[DamianWarS]

The Israeli Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinian Christians that nobody is talking about

So do we Christians care about this or are we content to let politics override the well-being of our Christian brethren?

the entire NT deconstructs this idea that Israel is a specific ethnic group in a specific geographical area, until we read revelation then all of a sudden all our blind support goes to them.