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Featured The Israel of God in Gal.6:16

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am a WWII vet, in my 94th year. I received the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, in August of 1937, when I was in High School.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  2. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, as Jesus said in John 15, He is the vine, and we are the branches. The branches consist of both Jews and Gentiles alike, as each of us is baptized by the Holy Spirit, grafted into the body of Christ, the vine - not into Israel - as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13.


    Quasar92
     
  3. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And the above is meaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support. When you are able to field a Scriptural based argument refuting what I posted, I'll consider responding to it.


    Quasar92
     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Look in the mirror for the judgment you dish out to others you are more guilty of than anyone here.


    Quasar92
     
  5. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The teachings of the Church being spiritual Israel is a non-Biblical heresy, as the OP reveals. You alluded to the Wonderous sign of Rev.12:1-2: Which is the sign of the Son of Man, as Jesus mentioned in Mt.24:30. It is also reference to His exact date of birth, as documented in the following:

    he great and wonderous sign in heaven - The Birth of Jesus: Scripturally connected by Mt.24:30 and Rev.12:1-2

    The essential factor in interpreting the symbol of Revelation 12:1–5 is the identification of the woman. What is John signifying by mentioning her? This much is certain: the woman in the first three verses is featured as being in heaven and both the Sun and the Moon are in association with her. After the dragon casts down a third of the stars of heaven (Revelation 12:4), the woman is then found on earth (verses 6 and 14). But the important factor is the birth of the man-child and the Woman’s relationship with the heavenly signs while she is symbolically in heaven. (The first three verses of Revelation 12 shows the Sun clothing her, the Moon under her feet and the Twelve Stars on her head).

    The “birth” of the Messiah is associated with this heavenly spectacle. Since some noted heavenly bodies are a part of the picture, it could well be that John intended the woman to represent a constellation that the two primary luminaries transverse, and that she was a part of the zodiacal system which gives headship to the signs (the Twelve Stars were a “crown” upon her head). Recall that interpreting astronomical signs dominated the thinking of most people in the 1st century, whether the people were Jews or Gentiles. Indeed, the word “sign” used by the author of the Book of Revelation to describe this celestial display was the same one used by the ancients to denote the zodiacal constellations. 17

    This is made clearer when one looks closely at the text. Since the Sun and Moon are amidst or in line with the body of this woman, she could be, in a symbolic way, a constellation located within the normal paths of the Sun and Moon. The only sign of a woman which exists along the ecliptic (the track of the Sun in its journey through the stars) is that of Virgo the Virgin. She occupies, in body form, a space of about 50 degrees along the ecliptic. The head of the woman actually bridges some 10 degrees into the previous sign of Leo and her feet overlap about 10 degrees into the following sign of Libra, the Scales. In the period of Jesus’ birth, the Sun entered in its annual course through the heavens into the head position of the woman about August 13, and exited from her feet about October 2. But the apostle John saw the scene when the Sun was “clothing” or “adorning” the woman. This surely indicates that the position of the Sun in the vision was located somewhere mid-bodied to the woman, between the neck and the knees. The Sun could hardly be said to clothe her if it were situated in her face or near her feet.

    The Sun Clothed the Woman

    The only time in the year that the Sun could be in a position to “clothe” the celestial woman called Virgo (that is, to be mid-bodied to her, in the region where a pregnant woman carries a child) is when the Sun is located between about 150 and 170 degrees along the ecliptic. This “clothing” of the woman by the Sun occurs for a 20-day period each year. This 20 degree spread could indicate the general time when Jesus was born. In 3 B.C.E., the Sun would have entered this celestial region about August 27 and exited from it about September 15. If John in the Book of Revelation is associating the birth of Jesus with the period when the Sun was mid-bodied to this woman called Virgo (and this is no doubt what he means), then Jesus would have to be born within that 20-day period. From the point of view of the Magi who were astrologers, this would have been the only logical sign under which the Jewish Messiah might be born, especially if He was to be born of a virgin. Even today, astrologers recognize that the sign of Virgo is the one which has reference to a messianic world ruler to be born from a virgin. 18

    This heavenly woman called Virgo is normally depicted as a virgin holding in her right hand a green branch and in her left hand a sprig of grain. In the Hebrew Zodiac, she at first (in the time of David) denoted Ruth who was gleaning in the fields of Boaz. She then later became the Virgin when the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was given in the time of King Hezekiah and the prophet Isaiah. This Virgin held in her left hand a sprig of grain. This was precisely where the bright star called Spica is found. Indeed, the chief star of the constellation Virgo is Spica.

    Bullinger, in his book The Witness of the Stars (pp. 29–34), said that the word “Spica” has, through the Arabic, the meaning “the branch” and that it symbolically refers to Jesus who was prophetically called “the Branch” in Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12. And Bullinger (and Seiss in his book The Gospel in the Stars) maintains that this sign of Virgo designates the heavenly witness for the birth of the Messiah (Jesus). They say that Virgo should actually begin the zodiacal signs which give the story of the Messiah. This may be. The apostle John may have given the same indication as far as the first full sign of the zodiac is concerned. He depicted the woman of Revelation as having a crown of Twelve Stars on her head.

    This could well show that the woman (Virgo) is the constellation of headship for all the twelve signs. The “head” position of Virgo is located within the last ten degrees of Leo. It was in this very region where the story of the career of the Messiah would begin that Bullinger and Seiss referred to. Thus, the story of Jesus and his mission on earth, as related by these heavenly symbols, should logically begin with his birth from a virgin and conclude with him being crowned king in the final sign of Leo the Lion (with its chief star being Regulus ― the King star). This is no doubt what the apostle John was trying to show through the symbols found in Revelation 12.

    The birth of this child in Revelation 12 (whom John identified with Jesus) should have occurred while the Sun was “clothing” the woman, when the Sun was mid-bodied to Virgo. This period of time in 3 B.C.E. covered 20 days (August 27 to September 15). If Jesus were born within that 20-day period, it would fit most remarkably with the testimony of Luke (relative to the birth of John the Baptist and the eighth course of Abijah). Indeed, the chronological indications associated with the priestly course of Abijah place Jesus’ birth exactly within this period. But there is a way to arrive at a much closer time for Jesus’ birth than a simple 20-day period. The position of the Moon in John’s vision actually pinpoints the nativity to within a day ― even to within a period of an hour and a half (within 90 minutes) on that day. This may appear an absurd assessment on the surface, but it is quite possible.

    The key is the Moon. The apostle said it was located “under her feet.” What does the word “under” signify in this case? Does it mean the woman of the vision was standing on the Moon when John observed it or does it mean her feet were positioned slightly above the Moon? John does not tell us. This, however, is not of major consequence in using the location of the Moon to answer our question because it would only involve the difference of a degree or two. The Moon travels about 12 degrees a day in its course through the heavens. This motion of one or two degrees by the Moon represents on earth a period of only two to four hours. This difference is no problem in determining the time of Jesus’ birth. What is vital, however, is that this shows the Moon as a New Moon.

    The Precise Position of the Moon is Important

    Now note this point. Since the feet of Virgo the Virgin represent the last 7 degrees of the constellation (in the time of Jesus this would have been between about 180 and 187 degrees along the ecliptic), the Moon has to be positioned somewhere under that 7 degree arc to satisfy the description of Revelation 12. But the Moon also has to be in that exact location when the Sun is mid-bodied to Virgo. In the year 3 B.C.E., these two factors came to precise agreement for about an hour and a half, as observed from Palestine or Patmos, in the twilight period of September 11th The relationship began about 6:15 p.m. (sunset), and lasted until around 7:45 p.m. (moonset). This is the only day in the whole year that the astronomical phenomenon described in the twelfth chapter of Revelation could take place.
    This also shows one other important point. The Moon was in crescent phase. It was a New Moon day, the start of a new lunar month. (See plates one and two below which show early depictions of the celestial scene of Revelation 12:1–3 and how the Moon is shown to be in its crescent phase.)

    Modern Man and Astronomical Motions

    While ordinary people in modern times who are not professional astronomers have little knowledge of the solar, lunar, planetary and stellar motions, the people from the 1st century up to the Industrial Revolution were well accustomed to them. Even people of little education were generally knowledgeable of the main motions of the astronomical bodies — even more than most college-educated people today. When anyone of early times read Revelation 12:1–3, an astronomical relationship was realized at once. There was no doubt that a New Moon display was being shown to them. And when the woman of the sign was interpreted as Virgo the Virgin, and with the Sun mid-bodied to the Virgin, they clearly saw a New Moon day occurring sometime in late summer.

    The apostle John said this heavenly relationship occurred at the time of Jesus’ birth. And in 3 B.C.E. this exact combination of celestial factors happened just after sunset only on one day of the year. It was on September 11th. It could not have occurred at any other time of the year. Indeed, even one day before ― on September 10 ― the Moon would have been located above the Virgin’s feet with the crescent not visible, while one day farther ― on September 12 ― the Moon had moved too far beyond the feet of the Virgin, at least 25 diameters of the Moon east of her feet. Thus, only one day applies. That day was just after sunset on September 11th, 3 B.C.E.

    The Exact Day of Jesus’ Birth

    The apostle John is presenting to his readers something of profound significance in a symbolic way. Revelation 12:1–3 shows a New Moon day that could only be observed from earth just after sunset, and the day was September 11th. This fits well with Luke’s description of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. Recall that,
    “there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over the flock by night ... and the angel said ... unto you is born this day [which began at sundown] in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.”

    Luke 2:8–11

    Jesus was born in early evening, and Revelation 12 shows it was a New Moon day.

    What New Moon could this have been? The answer is most amazing. It is almost too amazing! September 11, 3 B.C.E. was Tishri One on the Jewish calendar. To Jewish people this would have been a very profound occasion indeed. Tishri One is none other than the Jewish New Year’s day (Rosh ha-Shanah, or as the Bible calls it, The Day of Trumpets ― Leviticus 23:23–26). It was an important annual holy day of the Jews (but not one of the three annual festivals that required all Palestinian Jews to be in Jerusalem).

    What a significant day for the appearance of the Messiah to arrive on earth from the Jewish point of view! And remarkably, no other day of the year could astronomically fit Revelation 12:1–3. The apostle John is certainly showing forth an astronomical sign which answers precisely with the Jewish New Year Day. John would have realized the significance of this astronomical scene that he was describing.

    In the next chapter I will show the symbolic and religious meaning of this New Year’s day as interpreted by the Jews (and consequently by the apostles and early Christians) as it relates to the Messiah and his kingship. The information may provide a better understanding why the early apostles of the 1st century, and many Jews and Gentiles, so quickly came to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

    Whatever the case, the historical evidence supports the nativity of Jesus in 3 B.C.E., at the beginning of a Roman census, and (if we use the astronomical indications of the Book of Revelation) his birth would have occurred just after sundown on September 11th, on Rosh ha-Shanah, the Day of Trumpets — the Jewish New Year Day for governmental affairs. There could hardly have been a better day in the ecclesiastical calendar of the Jews to introduce the Messiah to the world from a Jewish point of view; and no doubt this is what the apostle John clearly intended to show by the sign he recorded in Revelation 12.

    By Ernest L. Martin, PhD.

    Edit: IMO, the twelve star crown the woman is wearing represents the twelve tribes of Israel, not the zodiacal signs.
    The Constellations she is in tell us exactly who she is: 80% in Virgo, the virgin, as Mary, who is pregnant andin pain, ready to give birth to Jesus. with her head 10% into the Constellation of Leo, the Lion of Judah, revealing which tribe Jesus came from, and 10% into the Constellation of Lybra, the scales of righteousness and justice, a clear representation of Jesus.

    Which is what Jesus was referring to in Mt.24:30, when He referred to the sign of the Son of Man appearing, at His second coming, in Setember of the year, at the time of the Autumnal Equinox. "Time, time and the dividing of time." Dan.7:25 KJV.


    Quasar92
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
     

    Act 2:37  Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 

    Act 2:38  Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 
    Act 2:39  For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 
    Act 2:40  And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 
    Act 2:41  Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


     
    Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 

    Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 
    Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 

    Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 
    Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
    Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
    Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 
    Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 


    Notice the word "Israel" in the two passages above, which are about the New Covenant Church.

    Cutting the word "Israel" out of the two passages above is a "heresy".

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    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  7. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Clearly, as a recidivist rapturist, we aren't going to change your fixed belief in a rapture. You seem to be on a kind of crusade to promote a rapture to heaven, before anything nasty happens down here.
    However your OP here and other so called proofs of this theory are sadly lacking in any Bible verse that actually says: God intends to do that for His people.
    What the Bible does plainly teach is that everyone will be tested, Luke 21:34-35, 1 Peter 4:12 and that God will protect His people thru what must come. Isaiah 41:13, Jeremiah 17:7-8, 1 Corinthians 1:13, +

    Re the truth of every faithful Christian being the Israelites of God, this is true because the Jews, in their current apostasy, atheism, false religions and LGBT condition, are surely not God's people now and they haven't been since Jesus said the Kingdom was taken from them. Matthew 21:43. The Bible prophets do not say the Jewish nation will be forgiven, but that they will be destroyed. Isaiah 22:14, Jer 10:18, Luke 19:27
    Also the fact of the Hebrew word 'Israel', literally means an Overcomer for God. Which is what we Christians are. 1 John 5:1-5
     
  8. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    The vine is Christ some of the branches that have been removed are Israel; the Israel that has turned its heart away from its King. The wild branches that have been grafted into the vine now take their place.
    While it is true that those of the original branches that remain in the vine are heir to the promise, it is also true of those who have been grafted in and adopted as sons of God. In this sense the we, the former Gentiles are indeed Israel and heirs to the promise.
    But I would suggest that this does nothing to supplant the remnant of Israel from the things that remain unique to them.
    And this is the bit I like: For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
    It would seem that a branch cut off can be re-attached by the Gardner! How wonderful for Israel and for all of us who are also the seed of Abraham.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  9. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    IS THE CHURCH (spiritual) ISRAEL?

    We now come to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is, we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath. In the Scripture we find the Church is not Israel the nation, but a separate entity under an entirely new covenant. Israel is called the wife of Jehovah in the Old Testament, while the Church is called the bride of Christ in the New Testament. This shows distinctions in how God relates to each, and how each group is related to God. The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It was Jacob whose name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons that became the nation of Israel. It is the physical posterity of Jacob that is Israel, this is what makes one Jewish.

    Many transfer the promises and the covenants of Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look up this phrase; you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported when they are read in their full context.

    There was no Church in the Old Testament because there was no incarnation, no revelation of the Son, nor his sacrifice that broke down the middle wall of partition that separated the Jews from the Gentiles (Eph.2:14). For the Church is made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles, not so for Israel.

    Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob, who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob. God had specially promised to Israel salvation and the believing Jews received it through the gospel. But Paul explains that not all the natural descendants of Jacob were embraced in this “Israel;” for that “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Rom. 9:6). As Paul already declared in an earlier chapter: “He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly” (Rom. 2:28, 29). The seed which is Israel is from Jacob and the apostle and other writers make a clear distinction between this and Abraham’s seed.

    “But they have not all obeyed the gospel” ( Rom. 10:16). They have not all responded to God’s call to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. This is foretold by Isaiah, who is quoted by Paul in Rom. 9:27; that only a remnant of the natural descendants of Jacob would obtain the salvation of God. “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the remnant hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded” (Rom. 11:7).

    Gal. 3:7 “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham." Being a son of Abraham does not make one a Jew, being a son of Jacob does, so a gentile can be a son of Abraham. But Jew’s are a son of Abraham and of Jacob.

    As Paul stated in Rom. 4:11-16, the children of Abraham, are those who have the faith of Abraham, whether by their natural birth they were Jews or Gentiles. This is detailed in Galatians 3 and 4; Gal. 3:26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” both Jews and Gentiles are spiritual brethren in the body of Christ.” The apostle says, to Gentile believers: “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:29). So those who accept the Gospel both Jews and Gentiles are of Abraham's seed, but only those who are physically Israel are from Jacobs seed.

    The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church “As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon “the Israel of God.” This can be made clear by the preceding verses v.12-13 where Paul is tackling the topic of circumcision and the Jews influence to have the gentiles circumcised. He then tells us the mandatory rite of the Abrahamic covenant is not applicable to the believer but it is the cross that is necessary to make a new creation. In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizer's were teaching that the law was needed also. Those (Jews) who obey this are the Israel of God (the remnant). Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, “ for they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Rom.9:6). There is also “Israel” after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph. 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God making a new entity. The church is neither Jew or Gentile but consists of both. The two put together make one “new man,” a third entity that is not Israel nor gentile. The word Israel is used 73 times in the New Testament, not once is it used for the Church.

    Romans 2:28-29, “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” Notice that the whole chapter is addressing the Jews. Within Paul’s theme of the book of Romans he addresses mankind that can be outlined in 3 portions. The whole world is under condemnation of sin1:18-3:30; then he addresses the Gentiles 1:18-2:16; He addresses the Jews 2:17-3:20.

    According to Paul’s specific aim in this portion of the letter, not all the descendants from Jacob are Israel; as he states on 9:6 “They are not all Israel who are Israel.” Not all who are named Jews are truly Jews, the true Israel of God (the Jews) are those who believe in the Messiah. Rom.2:17- 20 starts with the greater responsibility the Jews have. He points to the law that was not given to the Gentiles but the nation of Israel, and they have the responsibility of knowing God.

    It never says anything about a gentile being a spiritual Jew but is explaining that one is really Jewish not by the keeping of the law, but having a born again experience and following the Messiah. Paul is directing the teaching of the promised new covenant specifically to the Jews who believe, although the Gentiles are included. Paul is not teaching Gentiles become spiritual Jews but not all Jews are true Jews. There are Jews who believe and the Jews who are in unbelief. Just as it is put in other areas of a remnant among Israel, the true believers and a non-remnant, believing Israel as the Israel of God.

    A believing Gentile becomes a spiritual son of Abraham which is an inheritor of the spiritual blessings God promised to the Jews, they are grafted into the covenant he made with Israel.

    As for Israel, the Jews, Jer.30:18, 31:8 “Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth.”

    Isa.43:5 “I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...”

    It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation in their original homeland Israel, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church (made up of both Jews and Gentiles) and is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God obviously has a different plan for both

    Source: Let Us Reason.

    YOU REMAIN REFUTED!


    Quasar92
     
  10. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I appreciate the clarification Devin. Good job bro!
     
  11. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    FYI, the New Covenant of Grace was prophecied to Israel in the OT, by Jeremiah. The fulfillment of the covenant came with the shed blood and death of Jesus on a cross, who is the key of the entire issue, not the covenant!

    Many Israelis believed in Him, but the vast majority of Israel rejected Him, as history clearly attests. By the same token a vast majority of Gentiles believed in Him. As such, from Pentecost on, everyone who believes in Jesus as their Lord, formulated the Church of Jesus Christ, His body, whether Jews or Gentiles, and has nothing whatever to do with Israel.

    Israel to this day reject Jesus as their Messiah, but at His second coming, they will finally come to ralize He is their Messiah, as recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.

    Review my post #52.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Do you think the information that you copied and pasted from "Let Us Reason" erases the word "Israel" in Acts 2:36 and Hebrews 8:6-13?



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  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The many times over I have provided you Scriptural supported verification refuting your false belief that the Church is spiritual Israel, ruffles your feathers when I bring in the endorsement of my views from other sources.

    The views you hold to is an insult to Jesus, who is the founder, and head of the Church. Which began at Pentecost, with every person who believes in Him. Not before! That many Israelis belied in Jesus does not equate into the Church being spiritual Israel.

    Explain to me why the Scriptures verify the rapture of the Church while Israel goes through the tribulation.


    Quasar92
     
  14. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    May I suggest you have a good look in the mirror for your recidivistic view that believers in the one body of Christ are Israelites/Jews. See what Jesus had to say about it:

    Rev 2:9: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.”

    Rev 3:9: “Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie–indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.”

    The OP refutes you.


    Quasar92


    A
     
  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Indeed, there were many Israelis/Jews who believed in Jesus, but the vast majority rejected Him. Meanwhile, the number of Gentiles from Pentecost on, have outnumbered the Jews in the belief in Jesus as Lord, but by no means have mthey, or will they ever replace Israel as one of God's elect.

    Non-believing Israel who will go through the tribulation, as recorded in Jer.30:7, Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15, 21. When Jesus returns from the marriage in heaven to His Church, according to Rev.19:7-8, WITH HIS CHURCH, in verse 14, Israel will finally recognize Him as their Messiah, according to Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.


    Quasar92
     
  16. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    As with many things like this, and from both camps, the truth lies in what is affirmed but what is denied is wrong.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Let us see what Paul had to say about it, which must agree with what Jesus said.

    Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 
    Rom 2:29  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. 


    Rom 11:1
      I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 


    Php 3:1  Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe. 
    Php 3:2  Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 
    Php 3:3  For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 
    Php 3:4  though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 
    Php 3:5  circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 
    Php 3:6  concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 
    Php 3:7  But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 
    Php 3:8  Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 
    Php 3:9  and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 


    Nobody can honestly deny that almost all of the first members of the Church were Israelites.
    This is confirmed by Acts 2:36 and Hebrews 8:6-13.


    However, some of us have cut the word "Israel" out of those two passages.

    .
     
  18. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nowhere in the Bible did Paul ever refer to the Church as Israel. But rather, grieved over his not being able to save some, and later stating that all Israel will be saved, AFTER the times of the Gentiles has come in, according to Rom.11:14, 25 and 26. Review the following teachings of Jesus:


    Rev 2:9: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.”

    Rev 3:9: “Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie–indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.”

    The OP refutes you.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  19. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The all of Israel that will be saved, is the grafted in people, which include those Jews who have become Christian. All faithful Christians, from every nation, race and language.
    Romans 11:23 Provided the Jews do not continue being faithless,.... it is in God's power to graft them back in again.
    The first point is that the Olive Tree of Jesus, is only those who are His faithful followers. Secondly; Jews can be regrafted back, BUT only if they change their ways and believe in Jesus. Paralleled in Jeremiah 12:14-16
    So your idea that all the Jews will be saved, is wrong and is refuted by the many prophesies saying how Judah will be judged and only a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 4:3, Romans 9:27
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The statement above is one of the reasons that many today have rejected modern Dispensational Theology.
    What its proponents claim can easily be refuted by what is plainly written in scripture.


    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    Paul made reference to the Church as being the Israel of God in multiple other passages.

    Romans 9:6-8

    There are two groups of Israelites in Romans chapter 11, one faithful and one not.
    Paul used the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches grafted together into one tree.


    Galatians 6:15-16.

    In many of your previous posts you have expended a great deal of time and energy attempting to convince members of this forum that these passages do not mean what they plainly say.

    Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ, the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War, falls apart.

    In the video below former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson refutes what you are claiming about the Church and Israel.


     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
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