The Israel in Romans 9:6-8 and Galatians 6:15-16 and Ephesians 2:12

[Jim1]

Ephesians 2:12 is not a reference to ancient Israel. The referent of “you” is the Ephesians, many of whom had not yet been born until after the cross. What had previously (“once ... at that time”) resulted in them being “without Christ” and “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel” and “strangers of the covenants of the promise” (the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant is received in the New Covenant through belief in Christ), all of this occurring after the cross, was that they were not yet “in Christ,” because they had not yet believed in Him. Once they believed in Him, then they were “in Christ,” and consequently they were “made near by/in the Blood of the Christ,” and consequently they were no longer “without Christ” (they were now “in Christ”) and no longer “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel” (they were now “the saints’ fellow citizens”) and no longer “strangers from the covenants of the promise” (they were now “no longer strangers” and they were now “fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the Gospel”), as Paul explains in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6.

This “Israel” from whose citizenship the Ephesians USED TO BE excluded (when they were unbelievers) is the “Israel” from whose citizenship Jewish unbelievers were NOW excluded in Romans 9:6-8. This is the “Israel” whose citizens are the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, and whose Cornerstone is Christ. In Romans 9:6-8, Paul identifies the citizens of this “Israel” as “the children of the promise / the children of God,” whom he had previously (4:13-16 / 8:14-18) identified as “us/we,” the saints, both Gentile and Jew, and whom he afterward (9:22-24) identifies as “us,” the “vessels of mercy,” both Gentile and Jew.

This is the part of the tree / Israel in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27 that believes in Christ, from which the part of the tree / Israel that does not believe in Him is excluded by its unbelief toward Christ UNTIL the Gentiles who believe in Him have entered into the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Him, as Paul explains in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27. These two parts of the tree / Israel in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27 are the two Israels in 9:6-8 (believing [New Covenant] Israel [the saints, both Gentile and Jew]) and 9:31-32 and 11:7-11 (unbelieving [Old Covenant] Israel [the Jews (non-saints)]).

These two Israels in Romans 9:6-8 and in Romans 9:31-32 and 11:7-11 are the two Israels in Galatians 4:21-31 (compare Hebrews 12:18-24). The citizens of the New Covenant Israel are the saints, both Gentile and Jew, who are the heirs of the promise, and whose city is heavenly Jerusalem, whereas the citizens of the Old Covenant Israel are the Jews (non-saints), who are not the heirs, and whose city is earthly Jerusalem. The New Covenant Israel in Galatians 4:21-31 is the Israel of God in Galatians 6:15-16.

 

[dvd_holc]

Hmm...Does saint ever occur in the Psalms? yeah, my verison it does...Next, Jerusalem which is the Temple (House) of God is a mirror image of what is in Heaven. Why then do you say that the new covenant go to heaven but the old stay on earth? God created humans and placed them in the garden, but why do put humans in a far off heaven?

 

[Jim1]

Hmm...Does saint ever occur in the Psalms? yeah, my verison it does...Next, Jerusalem which is the Temple (House) of God is a mirror image of what is in Heaven. Why then do you say that the new covenant go to heaven but the old stay on earth? God created humans and placed them in the garden, but why do put humans in a far off heaven?

The saints (the holy ones) in the New Testament are defined as the ones who believe in Christ. The ones who do not believe in Him are not saints (holy ones). The epistles deal only with the status of things as a result of the cross. Everything changed at the cross. You resort to the Old Testament description of the status of things before the cross to ignore what the New Testament writers say regarding the status of things after the cross. You're right; the Old Testament does not say that one, whether Gentile or Jew, must believe in the crucified and risen Christ in order to be saved, in order to be a saint (a holy one). But this pre-cross fact does not change the post-cross fact that ever since the cross, one, whether Gentile or Jew, must believe in the crucified and risen Christ in order to be saved, in order to be a saint (a holy one). Your argument is the argument that Judaism makes against Christianity. It's the unbeliever's argument against belief in Christ.

I never said anything about believers going to heaven, although Paul indicates that they do when they die. And I never said anything about unbelievers staying on earth, although the implication is that unbelievers do not go to heaven when they die. I simply stated what Paul himself wrote.

Jim

 

[k2svpete]

The saints (the holy ones) in the I never said anything about believers going to heaven, although Paul indicates that they do when they die. And I never said anything about unbelievers staying on earth, although the implication is that unbelievers do not go to heaven when they die. I simply stated what Paul himself wrote.

Jim

Reference for that one please?

 

[dvd_holc]

Reference for that one please?

Yes, I agree...reference please.

 

[Jim1]

Hi dvd_holc,


dvd_holc (message #2):

Hmm...Does saint ever occur in the Psalms? yeah, my version it does...Next, Jerusalem which is the Temple (House) of God is a mirror image of what is in Heaven. Why then do you say that the new covenant go to heaven but the old stay on earth? God created humans and placed them in the garden, but why do put humans in a far off heaven?


Jim (message #3):

The saints (the holy ones) in the New Testament are defined as the ones who believe in Christ. The ones who do not believe in Him are not saints (holy ones). The epistles deal only with the status of things as a result of the cross. Everything changed at the cross. You resort to the Old Testament description of the status of things before the cross to ignore what the New Testament writers say regarding the status of things after the cross. You're right; the Old Testament does not say that one, whether Gentile or Jew, must believe in the crucified and risen Christ in order to be saved, in order to be a saint (a holy one). But this pre-cross fact does not change the post-cross fact that ever since the cross, one, whether Gentile or Jew, must believe in the crucified and risen Christ in order to be saved, in order to be a saint (a holy one). Your argument is the argument that Judaism makes against Christianity. It's the unbeliever's argument against belief in Christ. I never said anything about believers going to heaven, although Paul indicates that they do when they die. And I never said anything about unbelievers staying on earth, although the implication is that unbelievers do not go to heaven when they die. I simply stated what Paul himself wrote.


k2svpete (message #4):

Reference for that one please?


Jim:

Which one? Are you referring to the fact that the New Testament teaches that believers in Christ go to be with the Lord in heaven when they die? There’s this:

(ASV) Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

(ASV) 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. 2 For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven ... 4 ... that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. ... 6 ... whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord ... 8 ... and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. ....

(ASV) Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if to live in the flesh, this shall bring fruit from my work, then what I shall choose I know not. 23 But I am in a strait betwixt the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ; for it is very far better. 24 Yet to abide in the flesh is more needful for your sake. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide, yea, and abide with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 that your glorying may abound in Christ Jesus in me through my presence with you again.

(ASV) Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.


Or are you referring to the fact that the New Testament teaches that ever since the cross, a saint is someone who believes in Christ? There’s this:

(ASV) Acts 26:10 And this I also did in Jerusalem: and I both shut up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, and when they were put to death I gave my vote against them.

(ASV) Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my manner of life in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and made havoc of it.

(ASV) Romans 1:7 To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called ... saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 1:2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, ... them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called ... saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, theirs ... and ours.

(ASV) Ephesians 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ.


Jim

 

[dvd_holc]

Yes, Christ has gone to heaven, but why you believe that those who follow Jesus go to heaven and not the ones who were before Christ?

 

[Jim1]

Hi dvd_holc,


dvd_holc:

Yes, Christ has gone to heaven, but why you believe that those who follow Jesus go to heaven and not the ones who were before Christ?


Jim:

How did you infer from what I said that I was talking about the status of people BEFORE the cross?

I don’t recall saying anything one way or other about the status of people BEFORE the cross.

Everything I said concerned the status of people EVER SINCE the cross.

The New Testament barely says anything about the status of people BEFORE the cross, the reason being that the status of people BEFORE the cross is IRRELEVANT to the New Testament message.

EVER SINCE the cross, the ones who have believed in Christ have been the saints, and the ones who have not believed in Him have not been the saints.

EVER SINCE the cross, the ones who have believed in Christ have gone to heaven to be with Christ when they died, and the ones who have not believed in Him have not gone to heaven to be with Him when they died.

The analogy in Romans 11:16-24 describes the status of people EVER SINCE the cross. The Jews who have not believed in Christ have been “broken off” because of their unbelief toward Him, whereas the Jews who have believed in Him have NOT been “broken off,” and the Gentiles who have believed in Him have joined with the Jews who have believed in Him as fellow believing branches and fellow partakers of the holy Root (Christ), who (Christ, the holy One, the holy Root) makes holy (sanctifies) the holy ones (the saints, the ones who believe in Him).

The status of things BEFORE the cross is NOT in view in Romans 11:16-24.

So where did you get the idea that I was ever talking about the status of people BEFORE the cross?

Since the New Testament says so little about the current status of the people who lived on earth BEFORE the cross, we can only guess their status.

But I’m not interested in guessing. My only interest is what the New Testament actually says about this or that, which does NOT include anything, or at least much of anything, regarding the status of people BEFORE the cross.

I don’t know how people who lived BEFORE the cross are saved. I presume that God knows their hearts and that He consequently knows which ones of the ones living BEFORE the cross would have believed in Christ if given the opportunity to do so. I presume that God saves them on that basis. But I don’t know, and neither do you. And since there’s no way to know, a discussion regarding such a thing is pointless, because all we can do is guess.

In contrast, the New Testament has a lot to say about the status of people EVER SINCE the cross, and a discussion regarding this is meaningful, because there’s no guesswork involved, because the writers of the New Testament come right out and say what’s on their minds regarding this topic.


Jim

 

[heymikey80]

To the OP:
Mostly I'd agree with you completely. This is the NT Israel.

Actually, to me this is also the true OT Israel. Israel was defined, named, and built by God. So how God defines Israel in any period of time is who really deserves the name of "Israel".

What Israel isn't, is what the state of Judea had become by the First Century. Essentially Israel had become a melange of different religious, ethnic, familial, and political groups gathered together over Israel's Temple, Law, and Land. Paul had concluded that these weren't the things Israel rightly founded under. God, King/Messiah, and the People of God (children of Abraham) were her foundations instead.

The first few verses of Romans 11 tended to clinch that idea for me, when Paul said God hadn't forsaken His earlier people -- and then Paul set himself forth as an example.

 

[Azeke]

Ephesians 2:12 is not a reference to ancient Israel. The referent of “you” is the Ephesians, many of whom had not yet been born until after the cross. What had previously (“once ... at that time”) resulted in them being “without Christ” and “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel” and “strangers of the covenants of the promise” (the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant is received in the New Covenant through belief in Christ), all of this occurring after the cross, was that they were not yet “in Christ,” because they had not yet believed in Him. Once they believed in Him, then they were “in Christ,” and consequently they were “made near by/in the Blood of the Christ,” and consequently they were no longer “without Christ” (they were now “in Christ”) and no longer “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel” (they were now “the saints’ fellow citizens”) and no longer “strangers from the covenants of the promise” (they were now “no longer strangers” and they were now “fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the Gospel”), as Paul explains in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6.

This “Israel” from whose citizenship the Ephesians USED TO BE excluded (when they were unbelievers) is the “Israel” from whose citizenship Jewish unbelievers were NOW excluded in Romans 9:6-8. This is the “Israel” whose citizens are the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, and whose Cornerstone is Christ. In Romans 9:6-8, Paul identifies the citizens of this “Israel” as “the children of the promise / the children of God,” whom he had previously (4:13-16 / 8:14-18) identified as “us/we,” the saints, both Gentile and Jew, and whom he afterward (9:22-24) identifies as “us,” the “vessels of mercy,” both Gentile and Jew.

This is the part of the tree / Israel in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27 that believes in Christ, from which the part of the tree / Israel that does not believe in Him is excluded by its unbelief toward Christ UNTIL the Gentiles who believe in Him have entered into the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Him, as Paul explains in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27. These two parts of the tree / Israel in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27 are the two Israels in 9:6-8 (believing [New Covenant] Israel [the saints, both Gentile and Jew]) and 9:31-32 and 11:7-11 (unbelieving [Old Covenant] Israel [the Jews (non-saints)]).

These two Israels in Romans 9:6-8 and in Romans 9:31-32 and 11:7-11 are the two Israels in Galatians 4:21-31 (compare Hebrews 12:18-24). The citizens of the New Covenant Israel are the saints, both Gentile and Jew, who are the heirs of the promise, and whose city is heavenly Jerusalem, whereas the citizens of the Old Covenant Israel are the Jews (non-saints), who are not the heirs, and whose city is earthly Jerusalem. The New Covenant Israel in Galatians 4:21-31 is the Israel of God in Galatians 6:15-16.

The remnant of Israel was from the lost sheep, and apostate Judah. Peter by making reference to Hosea shows the connection to the people that sat in darkness among the gentiles were not my people, the house of Israel spoke of in Hosea would be the same people Peter refers to as now receiving mercy, a royal nation called out from the house of Israel and Judah, with only the first fruits of that covenant being gathered.

The main harvest spoiled and was led captive, and the gentiles didn't replace them spiritualy or literaly.

The remnant isn't a new revelation it has always been part of Israels history.


Azeke.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Israel consists of twelve tribes to this very day, though not a contiguous nation. The Abrahamic promises were twofold: race and grace, and were given to the whole of Israel. When God divided Israel into the House of Israel, and, the House of Judah in the days of Reheboam and Jereboam he followed it by dividing the birthright as well. The 'screptre' promise of grace was given to Judah, and the birthright went to Joseph (the house of Israel). As grace is not and cannot be a 'birthright' that has to refer to the promises of wealth and national greatness included in the overall covenant given to Abraham and restated by God to his descendants. Jacob (Israel), and Moses, each revealed to the individual tribes what would become of them in the far future.

The new testament is concerned with the tribes of the 'house of Judah' only as it is all about the 'grace' part of the covenant. This leads many to believe that the tribes of the house of Israel have disappeared from history. Not so. They are just not important to the new covenant message which is concerned with grace alone.

owg

 

[beloved57]

Jesus Christ is Gods True Israel Isa 49:


1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.


And the election of grace in Him are the True Israel of God..gal 6:


14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The new creature is from the seed of christ , the true israel of God..

hos 11:


Hosea 11

1When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. cp

matt 2 15

15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

All the promises to Israel are to christ and his seed..