BobRyan

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Some folks say --
the investigative judgment. This is a purely man-made invention

until you read Daniel 7 and 2 Cor 5:10.

I prefer the Bible.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Yep - that is one of the two texts...


That is a long way from being the IJ and you know it.

"Investigative Judgment" is shorthand used by Adventists to mean
1. We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for deeds done in the body whether they be good OR bad.
2. A judgment event in heaven where books are opened and court sits - and humanity is judged out of the things written in books.
3. A judgment event where judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

4. A judgment that proceeds along the lines defined by Romans 2
5. A judgment that takes place before the second coming during the same time where saints on earth are being persecuted. - while the everlasting gospel is being preached to the whole world.


2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Rom 14: 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Yes that is part of the description just given.

Dan 7 -- the text I gave you and that you did not respond to...
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.



Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

The very things that you apparently claim - cannot possibly be so.

And then there is Romans 2 where we see the details of how decisions are being made in that judgment that Rev 14:7 is going on now while the everlasting gospel is being preached to the whole world.

=======================

Now back to the actual topic of this thread.

Oh, Bob, why do you try to cover-up that little band of Adventists .

I think you are talking about what Christianity Today calls the 5th largest Christian denomination on planet earth (See Feb 2015 article)
 

Monk Brendan

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I think you are talking about what Christianity Today calls the 5th largest Christian denomination on planet earth (See Feb 2015 article)[/QUOTE]
As a member of the largest group of Christians on planet earth, am I supposed to be impressed by this?
 
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BobRyan

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As a member of the largest group of Christians on planet earth, am I supposed to be impressed by this?

Melkite Greek Catholic - that is a faction/group I have not heard of ... do you want a thread on that group?

The Bible texts and the doctrine that is the topic of this thread - holds no interest for you? Then why post here?

"Fallout of the Fourth Ecumenical Council
The first defining moment was the socio-political fallout in the wake of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, the Council of Chalcedon, which took place in AD 451. Fifth-century Middle-Eastern Christian society became sharply divided between those who did and those who did not accept the outcome of the council. Those who accepted the decrees of the council, the Chalcedonians, were mainly Greek-speaking city-dwellers, and were called Melkites (imperials) by the anti-Chalcedonians.[13] These latter were predominantly Armenian or Coptic-speaking provincials.

"Fusion with Arabic Language and Culture
The second defining moment is more correctly a period of change. The Battle of Yarmuk (636) took the Melkite homeland out of Byzantine control and placed it under the occupation of the Arab invaders.[14] Whereas the Greek language and culture remained important, especially for the Melkites of Jerusalem, Antiochene Melkite tradition merged with the Arabic language and culture. Indeed, there was Arabic Christian poetry before the arrival of Islam, but the Antiochene blending with Arabic culture led to a degree of distancing from the Patriarch of Constantinople.

"The third defining moment were the Councils of Reunion in which that part of the Church of Antioch which had elected Cyril VI in 1724 was recognized as the legitimate Patriarch by the Pope in 1729. In 1054, Patriarch Michael I Cerularius and Cardinal Humbert of Silva Candida excommunicated each other thus formalizing a schism that was developing for many years. The Melkite Patriarch Peter III of Antioch rejected the quarrel of the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople meaning that the See of Antioch was in union with both until 1929. In 1965, Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I "consigned these excommunications to oblivion""

Lots of interesting history -- in any case... not the topic of this thread -- as you probably will agree.
 
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Gary K

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Some folks say --


until you read Daniel 7 and 2 Cor 5:10.

I prefer the Bible.



Yep - that is one of the two texts...




"Investigative Judgment" is shorthand used by Adventists to mean
1. We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for deeds done in the body whether they be good OR bad.
2. A judgment event in heaven where books are opened and court sits - and humanity is judged out of the things written in books.
3. A judgment event where judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

4. A judgment that proceeds along the lines defined by Romans 2
5. A judgment that takes place before the second coming during the same time where saints on earth are being persecuted. - while the everlasting gospel is being preached to the whole world.


2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Rom 14: 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Yes that is part of the description just given.

Dan 7 -- the text I gave you and that you did not respond to...
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.



Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

The very things that you apparently claim - cannot possibly be so.

And then there is Romans 2 where we see the details of how decisions are being made in that judgment that Rev 14:7 is going on now while the everlasting gospel is being preached to the whole world.

=======================

Now back to the actual topic of this thread.



I think you are talking about what Christianity Today calls the 5th largest Christian denomination on planet earth (See Feb 2015 article)

I have never understood why so many people are against the doctrine of the investigative judgment. It just doesn't make sense to me. If a person truly believes that Jesus gave His life for us, is involved in our salvation every step of the way, and tells us that He has gone away to prepare mansions for us to live in, why be afraid of being in an investigative judgment in which Jesus is both the judge and the defending attorney?

To fear and fight against something like that says most people do not really trust Jesus to do what's best for us in all things. If I have followed Jesus wherever He has led me, and I truly trust Him I should welcome a judgment that clears me of all guilt and declares me innocent of every charge the devil can bring against me. Instead most people just freak out at the idea that there is going to be a judgment that we will all face together. What appears to me to be a positive event looks to them to be a fearful event.

I just don't get why anyone who truly trusts Jesus should fear Him and the consequences of standing in front of Him.
 
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reddogs

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Some folks say --


until you read Daniel 7 and 2 Cor 5:10.

I prefer the Bible.



Yep - that is one of the two texts...




"Investigative Judgment" is shorthand used by Adventists to mean
1. We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for deeds done in the body whether they be good OR bad.
2. A judgment event in heaven where books are opened and court sits - and humanity is judged out of the things written in books.
3. A judgment event where judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

4. A judgment that proceeds along the lines defined by Romans 2
5. A judgment that takes place before the second coming during the same time where saints on earth are being persecuted. - while the everlasting gospel is being preached to the whole world.


2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Rom 14: 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Yes that is part of the description just given.

Dan 7 -- the text I gave you and that you did not respond to...
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.



Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

The very things that you apparently claim - cannot possibly be so.

And then there is Romans 2 where we see the details of how decisions are being made in that judgment that Rev 14:7 is going on now while the everlasting gospel is being preached to the whole world.

=======================

Now back to the actual topic of this thread.



I think you are talking about what Christianity Today calls the 5th largest Christian denomination on planet earth (See Feb 2015 article)
Very nice..
 
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Dave-W

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"Investigative Judgment" is shorthand used by Adventists to mean
1. We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for deeds done in the body whether they be good OR bad.
2. A judgment event in heaven where books are opened and court sits - and humanity is judged out of the things written in books.
Where does it say it is in heaven?

I thought it was here on earth after the resurrection.
 
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BobRyan

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Where does it say it is in heaven?

I thought it was here on earth after the resurrection.

You are of course correct that the Great White Throne judgment is on earth as we see it in Rev 20 after the 1000 years.

But before the second coming (pre-advent) there is the investigative (based on books opened and records reviewed) judgment in heaven.

Daniel 7
The Ancient of Days Reigns
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
...
The Son of Man Presented
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.


On Earth - the wicked are persecuting the saints right up until the judgment concludes in favor of the saints

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One


25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
 
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BobRyan

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The Daniel passage of course I am quite familiar with; but I see no indication that it is in heaven as opposed to on earth.

Well it does mention heaven and it does say that during that entire time - until the judgment concludes with judgment passed in favor of the saints - the wicked are tormenting and overpowering the saints.

Not at all likely that the wicked are in heaven doing that - so they are on earth and not at all likely that they are granted permission on earth to overpower the saints on earth all during the time God in his courtroom decides the case of each person ...

And it does say that the earth is not handed over to Christ and the saints until after the judgment finishes so it has to be before the 2nd coming since Christ's rule with a rod of iron begins at the 2nd coming.
 
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Dave-W

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The Great White Throne judgement of Rev 20 is different than the Judgment Seat in 2 Cor 5. The latter is ONLY believers and is for rewards given or taken away per our obedience.
 
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BobRyan

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The Great White Throne judgement of Rev 20 is different than the Judgment Seat in 2 Cor 5. The latter is ONLY believers

I agree.. the Rev 20 event after the 1000 years is only for the wicked

and is for rewards given or taken away per our obedience.

It says rewards for rebellion (bad deeds) and for obedience.

2 Cor 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 6:23 mentions the reward for bad deeds.

Romans 2 also speaks about that judgment where some are approved and others condemned.

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

==================

Consider the implications if the above is true.

Then combine that with Rev 15:8 where Christ's High Priestly intercession mentioned in 1 John 2:1 ends - before the Rev 19 second coming.
 
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Crosstian

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Would you mind if we start with scripture and those of our brethren therein?

The saints do not get to escape judgment, though they have an Advocate, Jesus Christ the Righteous:

Psalms 7:11 KJB - God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.

Psalms 37:33 KJB - The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

Ecclesiastes 3:17 KJB - I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJB - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

The investigative judgment is found in type and in prophecy throughout the whole of scripture [KJB]:

In Genesis 2 & 3, we see Eve being deceived into sin, though Adam was warned, and He having warned her, and Adam following in sin, and then "they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day", and God ['Jesus'] investigates, inquiring and asking questions [Genesis 3:9-19; not that God doesn't know, but it is for the benefit of the angels and Adam/Eve and us], having already warned man of the sentence for sin [Genesis 2:17], and then God carries out sentence, but also gives hope [Genesis 3:15].

In Genesis 4, we see Cain and Abel, which both claimed to worship God, yet one was a son of that wicked one, satan. When Abel was killed by Cain, God came down and asked/inquired/investigated of Cain, before sentence was carried out.

In Genesis 6-9, we see that the world was becoming wicked, and while many claimed to follow God, they were already inter-marrying with the children of Cain. God looks upon the world in investigation, before execution of Judgment by the Flood.

In Genesis 10-11, we see that the people again rebelled, and God came down to see and look and investigate, before the execution of Judgment in the separation of the languages.

In Genesis 17-19, we see that God had delivered the people of Lot and Sodom, and yet Sodom did not truly repent, and went further in rebellion, and God came down to see/investigate/judge before execution of Judgment. ...etc...

In Leviticus 16 & 23, we see that Israel, and all that claimed to follow God, was to enter into the time of the typical Day of Atonement, wherein the Priest bore into the Sanctuary, upon the Breast plate of Judgment the people, represented by the stones. Anyone found not to be in harmony with God, in true repentance, was to be cut off at the end of it.

In 1 Kings 3, we see Solomon [type of Christ] having an investigation between two persons [women] over a dead Child [Christ], and a living Child [Christ] to see who really loved the Child. Solomon investigates in a judgment setting upon His throne, and gives a test, and a sentence testing the loyalty of the True mother [true Church, worshippers] and the corruption of heart of the false mother [false church, worshippers].

In Ezra 2, we see an investigative judgment in type:
Ezra 2:61 KJB - And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:

Ezra 2:62 KJB - These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

Ezra 2:63 KJB - And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

All of those priests coming back from the captivity of Babylon, had to be able to shew themselves by lineage, and had to pass through an investigation, to continue in their role as priests of God. Christians are kings and priests, a royal priesthood, and we have come out of the captivity. This is seen throughout the whole of scripture [KJB]:

The Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation reveal in type and in Prophecy this great end-time Investigative Judgment, and in Exodus 28:15,29,30 KJB we see the breastplate upon the Highpriest, is called “the breastplate of judgment”.

In Daniel 7, we see God the Father sitting in judgment, with the books of records being opened, and the angels ministering and searching the records, with Jesus present.

In Daniel 12, we see Michael/Jesus standing up, after the searching of the record books of Heaven, and the book of Lifeof the Lamb have been searched and read

In Zechariah 3, we see an investigative judgment, taking place in the Most Holy Place on the day of atonement, with Joshua the High priest.

In Malachi 3, we see God sitting as a refiner, in judgment over his children.

In the Gospels, Jesus himself came to see/investigate/judge Israel, before the execution of Judgment.

In the Gospels, the disciples themselves were sifted, and we can even see this futher with Peter in the courtyard of the Highpriest, with Jesus in the upper room, and so on.

In Matthew 18, we see God taking account of his servants, who had at one point received forgiveness, but later had it revoked.

In Matthew 22, we see God looking to see who is wearing the wedding garment, and passing judgment on the one who didn't.

In Mark 11, we see Jesus coming to the Tree in "search" of fruit, and finding none, and judgment is passed upon it.

In Romans 2:13-16, we read of the future judgment of all men, including their secrets by Jesus

In 2 Corinthians 5:10, we read of all having to appear before the judgment seat of Christ

In Hebrews 9, we see this judgment was to begin with the dead, in the time of judgment.

In 1 Peter 4, we see that God, at the time of Peter, was “ready” to judge, and would begin at the time specified in Daniel and in Leviticus 16 & 23.

In Jude 1:15, we read of Jesus second advent to render and to “execute judgment” that was determined beforehand in the investigation.

In Revelation 3:10, 17:12, we see a specific testing of the living professing, that comes after the dead professed [Hebrews 9:27]

In Revelation 3, the 7th church is called Laodicea, meaning a judging of the people, who are searched by God.

In Revelation 11, we see that the very Church, the Temple of God, was to be measured, sometime after the 1,260 years of Daniel.

In Revelation 14, we see the very first Angel's message declare that the time of judgment had begun, and was going forward while the Everlasting Gospel was still being preached.

… and so on.

Notice, that when the Ancient of Days [the person of the Father] sat, multiple thrones were also placed, wherein the angels [which 10,000 etc surrounded Him] also sat, and books were opened. This judgment is for the angels to look into, because they cannot read the human heart as God can, and thus they need to see for themselves that God's judgments were right on who is to be let into a place without sin [Heaven]. The timing of the sequence in Daniel 7 [as shown in context and in chiastic structure, etc] reveals that this phase of judgment takes place after the rise of Rome and its divisions, and before the second advent, and the kingdom come. It is unbreakable in its order. The judgment therein is even taking place while the little horn is still blaspheming on earth, before it is destroyed, before the number of the kingdom of Heaven is made up.

In Daniel 7 is in 4 main parts.
Daniel 7:1-14 KJB the vision of Daniel
Daniel 7:15-18 KJB the super summary of the whole vision by Gabriel [even vss 17,18]
Daniel 7:19-22 KJB Daniel asking about it again, and a specific
Daniel 7:23-28 KJB Gabriel, once more going over the whole in more detail

Thus Daniel, Gabriel, Daniel, Gabriel. Each portion intimately tied to the other, so that the timing thereof cannot be broken between each section.
Daniel 7:22 KJB - Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Until [refers to the previous time portion in earlier verse, the leading up to 1844, thus the 1,260 years, 538-1798]

Ancient of Days came, and did sit [refers to 1844 until the close of probation]

judgment was given to the saints of the most High [refers to 1,000 years, see Rev 20:4, "given unto", see also Paul, know ye not that the saints will judge angels [fallen], the world [lost].]

and the time came [end of the 1,000 years, see Rev. 20, Isaiah 24, etc] that the saints posesses the kingdom [being New Heaven and New Earth]

In Ezekiel 1-9, shows the same, wherein a investigative judgment goes forward, and then execution of that judgment takes place after, beginning with the elders of the temple/sanctuary on down to the least.

A very important text to consider:

Proverbs 28:5 KJB - Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.


We pray all of our prayers may be, in the time of our judgment by God, that He may keep out names upon His lips, and not spew us out.

Let out prayer to be, beginning to day, 'investigate me, O God, according to thy mercy and righteousness':

Psalms 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psalms 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

As it is written:

Psalms 44:20 If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god;
Psalms 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Zephaniah 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

Ought we not to search our own selves?

Lamentations 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

Ought we not to search after Him as for hid treasure?

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

The time and events approach that the "test" of all professing men living will come, for the judgment of the professed dead will be over (Hebrews 9:27; Daniel 7:9-10), and for the living the "test" will be finally and forever taken, and there will be no more time to prepare for the "test" which comes to "try" all:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Is it not written?

Proverbs 22:3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.

Proverbs 27:12 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished.
 
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Crosstian

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Perhaps it is the word "Investigative" that is the issue with so many, since they cannot seem to find it in the KJB, but perhaps if they might look in the many other English translations to which they themselves trust in:

For instance, Daniel 9:10 - Daniel 7:10 - Bible Gateway -

[MSG] - “As I was watching all this, “Thrones were set in place and The Old One sat down. His robes were white as snow, his hair was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, its wheels blazing. A river of fire poured out of the throne. Thousands upon thousands served him, tens of thousands attended him. The courtroom was called to order, and the books were opened.

[NOG] - "A river of fire flowed. It came from him. Thousands and thousands served him. Ten thousand times ten thousand were stationed in front of him. The court convened, and the books were opened."

[ISV] - "A river of fire flowed out from before him. Thousands upon thousands were serving him, with millions upon millions waiting before him. The court sat in judgment, and record books were unsealed."

[GNT] - "and a stream of fire was pouring out from it. There were many thousands of people there to serve him, and millions of people stood before him. The court began its session, and the books were opened."

etc ...

God gave us a type of how God operates in Heaven:
Deuteronomy 13:14 KJB - Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

Deuteronomy 13:14 - Deuteronomy 13:14 - Bible Gateway
[AMP] - "then you shall investigate and search out [witnesses] and ask thorough questions. If it is true and the matter is established that this loathsome thing has been done among you,"

[CSB] - "you are to inquire, investigate, and interrogate thoroughly. If the report turns out to be true that this detestable act has been done among you,"

[HCSB] - "you are to inquire, investigate, and interrogate thoroughly. If the report turns out to be true that this detestable thing has happened among you,"

etc., etc. ...

Deuteronomy 19:18 KJB - And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

Deuteronomy 19:18 - Deuteronomy 19:18 - Bible Gateway
[AMP] - "The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness, and he has accused his brother falsely,"

[CSB] - "The judges are to make a careful investigation, and if the witness turns out to be a liar who has falsely accused his brother,"

[CJB] - "The judges are to investigate carefully. If they find that the witness is lying and has given false testimony against his brother,"

[HCSB] - "The judges are to make a careful investigation, and if the witness turns out to be a liar who has falsely accused his brother,"

etc, etc ...

Even, at least one, use the exact word:

[OJB] - "thought it expedient also, having done an iyun (investigative research), accurately and carefully being meayen (engaged in research) in every source and making a medakdeke (pain-stakingly thorough) investigation of every aspect from HaReshit (the Beginning), to write for you and to mesader (arrange, place in succession) an orderly account, most noble Theophilus,"

What will these people say, when God asks them why they did not believe, and why they taught contrary to His word?

Psalms 9:12 KJB - When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.

God is already making inquisition, an investigation, for blood, upon all those of the past who have professed His name, and will He find "blood" on their garments, on their hands, will He find the blood of others upon them? Soon, God will turn from those who have died in profession to those living ...
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan

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Perhaps it is the word "Investigative" that is the issue with so many, since they cannot seem to find it in the KJB, but perhaps if they might look in the many other English translations to which they themselves trust in:

For instance, Daniel 9:10 - Daniel 7:10 - Bible Gateway -

[MSG] - “As I was watching all this, “Thrones were set in place and The Old One sat down. His robes were white as snow, his hair was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, its wheels blazing. A river of fire poured out of the throne. Thousands upon thousands served him, tens of thousands attended him. The courtroom was called to order, and the books were opened.

[NOG] - "A river of fire flowed. It came from him. Thousands and thousands served him. Ten thousand times ten thousand were stationed in front of him. The court convened, and the books were opened."

[ISV] - "A river of fire flowed out from before him. Thousands upon thousands were serving him, with millions upon millions waiting before him. The court sat in judgment, and record books were unsealed."

[GNT] - "and a stream of fire was pouring out from it. There were many thousands of people there to serve him, and millions of people stood before him. The court began its session, and the books were opened."

yep... good point
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Some folks say --


until you read Daniel 7 and 2 Cor 5:10.

I prefer the Bible.



Yep - that is one of the two texts...




"Investigative Judgment" is shorthand used by Adventists to mean
1. We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for deeds done in the body whether they be good OR bad.
2. A judgment event in heaven where books are opened and court sits - and humanity is judged out of the things written in books.
3. A judgment event where judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

4. A judgment that proceeds along the lines defined by Romans 2
5. A judgment that takes place before the second coming during the same time where saints on earth are being persecuted. - while the everlasting gospel is being preached to the whole world.


2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Rom 14: 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Yes that is part of the description just given.

Dan 7 -- the text I gave you and that you did not respond to...
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.



Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

The very things that you apparently claim - cannot possibly be so.

And then there is Romans 2 where we see the details of how decisions are being made in that judgment that Rev 14:7 is going on now while the everlasting gospel is being preached to the whole world.

=======================

Now back to the actual topic of this thread.



I think you are talking about what Christianity Today calls the 5th largest Christian denomination on planet earth (See Feb 2015 article)


That's just your interpretation. Reading Daniel 7 in context one sees that the Temple is on earth, not in heaven.
 
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BobRyan

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That's just your interpretation. Reading Daniel 7 in context one sees that the Temple is on earth, not in heaven.

No in Dan 7 the judgment scene is in heaven - before the 2nd coming and while saints on earth are being persecuted.

“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads
were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.



The Son of Man Presented
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

The Vision Interpreted
15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. 16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

Only after the judgment is closed - and passed in favor of the saints does the persecution of the saints end.
 
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