The Injustice of Arminianism

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I think the scriptures are clear enough that God desires to save everyone

stop right here!

are you a universalist?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

How is it possible that an omniscient, omnipotent God who is in the eternal realm, outside of time, who sees eternity past, and forward would not know what His creatures are going to do just because He may choose to allow them free will? Or make Him powerless to deal with their choices???

simple,

if God always knew what His creatures would do, and at no time learned this information, the path of man has always been set(by God and not by chance) and cannot be altered. you can't 'declare the end from the beginning' if there are an infinite number of variables.

this means many people are suffering and will spend eternity in hell because of a God who supposedly loves everyone and who wants everyone to be saved(according to you anyway).

let me ask you. did God put out the same amount of effort to save Hitler as he did to save Paul?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

No one is forced to accept Jesus; some people chose to follow him, then deserted him when his teaching was too hard, John 6:66. We are not told that he chased after them to drag them back; he let them go. Similarly with the rich young ruler - no one forced him to walk away.

And no one forced Adam to disobey the command he had heard from God and eat the fruit.

i'm not aware of any 'calvinist' who would make this claim so i'm not sure why this straw man argument is consistently put forth by opponents of the doctrine. james 1:13-15 refutes it head on.

 

[EmSw]

let me ask you. did God put out the same amount of effort to save Hitler as he did to save Paul?

I'm guessing you do know.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

let me ask you. did God put out the same amount of effort to save Hitler as he did to save Paul?

Great question.

 

[Strong in Him]

i'm not aware of any 'calvinist' who would make this claim

I never said they would.

so i'm not sure why this straw man argument is consistently put forth by opponents of the doctrine.

It's not a straw man argument.
The issue is, does God choose to save, and have mercy, on only some people? My position is that salvation is for everyone - since ALL have sinned and Jesus died for sinners. Not everyone will be saved - that was in answer to the question, "are you a universalist?" - but the provision is there.

james 1:13-15 refutes it head on.

James 1:13-15 doesn't have anything to do with the issue of God deciding to have mercy on only a few of those he created; as far as I can see.

 

[-V-]

you didn't.

the question you answered, which I never asked, was "who made the choice of which world to create from the option provided?"

the question I asked, which you have yet to answer, is "who provided the options of worlds to create for God to choose from?".

I await your answer.

Wow, really? Can't see what was made obvious?? No one provided options to God. Is it getting through yet?

if you believe God loves all people, why would he allow suffering and why is there a hell?

Because God allows free will. God wants people to love Him. If we have no free will, then any love or devotion or loyalty or obedience we show is completely meaningless. It only means something if we choose it. That choice only exists if there is another option - the choice to not love, the choice to not be devoted, the choice to be disloyal, the choice to disobey.

if you believe God did not want those people to suffer, why did he create a world(not out of necessity, but purely out of prerogative) where it would happen?

Because there needed to be free will.

so then your position is that Scripture, God's Word, contradicts itself? if these interpretations are 100% accurate summaries of what God has proclaimed then that would be the only logical conclusion.

Once again (seriously, how many times to I have to say it??), WRONG. *YOU* are contradicting *YOURSELF*. I never claimed your interpretations are 100% accurate. YOU are claiming that. That means it is YOUR INTERPRETATIONS, not me, that makes Scripture contradict itself.

it still remains that there's nothing contradictory about God preordaining all actions and events in time and man making decisions based on his own will and desires. you've made the claim that it is. you're welcomed to prove it.

YOU are the one who said man making free will choices makes Him subordinate to man. Post #127. And again in post #202 you said:

the path of man has always been set(by God and not by chance)

Once again, you seem to be flip-flopping & contradicting yourself over whether or not man has free will or not.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Wow, really? Can't see what was made obvious?? No one provided options to God. Is it getting through yet?

so is the answer yes to my actual question?

Because God allows free will.

you do realize you just confirmed the statement I made in my initial post in this thread.

God(who does not desire suffering) had to make a world of suffering and hell in order to allow for autonomous free will creatures.

Because there needed to be free will.

again, "needed" to be free will? this is another example of where God's ability to create is made subject to man's autonomous free will, despite the fact that he had no desire to see man suffer.

do you believe Ezekiel 11:19-20 is a violation of man's autonomous free will?

Once again (seriously, how many times to I have to say it??), WRONG. *YOU* are contradicting *YOURSELF*. I never claimed your interpretations are 100% accurate. YOU are claiming that. That means it is YOUR INTERPRETATIONS, not me, that makes Scripture contradict itself.

ok, then prove these interpretations are inaccurate.

YOU are the one who said man making free will choices makes Him subordinate to man.

in a synergist soteriological system it does, in a monergist system it does not.

Once again, you seem to be flip-flopping & contradicting yourself over whether or not man has free will or not.

it was you who said God knew all events from eternity past without learning what these events would be at any time in that eternity. what you quoted from me here is the logical conclusion of that position.

again, james 1:13-15 shows that man makes the decision to commit sin based on his own will and desires and not on a eternal decree he has no knowledge of.

man does not say in his head "well, God decreed that I would rob this bank so I better do it". instead he says "I've been planning this bank robbery for months and I'm gonna be rich! let's do this!".

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I never said they would.

then why the statements about someone being "forced" to do something since both of us agree no one has ever made that claim?

It's not a straw man argument.

you just admitted no one made this argument yet you have posited it as the position of those who would hold to Calvinist doctrine that God would save those who would be drawn by the Father to the Son to be raised up.

The issue is, does God choose to save, and have mercy, on only some people? My position is that salvation is for everyone - since ALL have sinned and Jesus died for sinners. Not everyone will be saved - that was in answer to the question, "are you a universalist?" - but the provision is there.

the problem with this position is that the angel announced that God WILL save his people from their sins. it does not say he will make us an offer...that we can(and will) easily refuse, but that He will absolutely accomplish salvation for his people.

what you're proposing here is that he just threw us a life line and we might or might not take it. according to scripture, none of us would take it(romans 8:6-8 ephesians 2:1-3). it required an act of God on our heart and mind to even choose to take this offer(Ezekiel 11:19-20).

James 1:13-15 doesn't have anything to do with the issue of God deciding to have mercy on only a few of those he created; as far as I can see.

that would be because I never intended for this citation to address that issue. I cited it to refute the idea that people are forced to do this or that.

 

[-V-]

so is the answer yes to my actual question?

How can the answer be "yes" when you didn't ask a yes/no question? You asked a "who" question.

you do realize you just confirmed the statement I made in my initial post in this thread.

No I didn't, because you seem to claim man having free will makes God subordinate to man. I have never "confirmed" that idea in the slightest.

again, "needed" to be free will? this is another example of where God's ability to create is made subject to man's autonomous free will, despite the fact that he had no desire to see man suffer.

No, you are twisting what I said. God CHOSE to allow free will. Free will is a necessary result of God's CHOICE.

do you believe Ezekiel 11:19-20 is a violation of man's autonomous free will?

No.

ok, then prove these interpretations are inaccurate.

I already did by pointing out that you seem to contradict yourself. If your interpretations were correct, you wouldn't seem to contradict yourself.

in a synergist soteriological system it does, in a monergist system it does not.

Ok. So?

it was you who said God knew all events from eternity past without learning what these events would be at any time in that eternity. what you quoted from me here is the logical conclusion of that position.

No, they aren't logical conclusions.

again, james 1:13-15 shows that man makes the decision to commit sin based on his own will and desires and not on a eternal decree he has no knowledge of.

man does not say in his head "well, God decreed that I would rob this bank so I better do it". instead he says "I've been planning this bank robbery for months and I'm gonna be rich! let's do this!".

You're confusing what man thinks is happening with what is actually happening. If man has no free will, then him *thinking* he has free will doesn't change that fact.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

No I didn't, because you seem to claim man having free will makes God subordinate to man. I have never "confirmed" that idea in the slightest.

I didn't say you conceded the point, you just confirmed it.

No, you are twisting what I said. God CHOSE to allow free will. Free will is a necessary result of God's CHOICE.

choice to do what?

could God have made a world with no suffering and still have autonomous free will creatures? if yes, why didn't he(remember, God does not desire there to be suffering)?

I already did by pointing out that you seem to contradict yourself. If your interpretations were correct, you wouldn't seem to contradict yourself.

you're dodging,

you can't prove the renderings to be inaccurate. if you can't prove their inaccuracy than your claim of contradiction is invalid since God's Word does not contradict itself.

Ok. So?

not my job to work through the problems of someone else's soteriological system. i'm a monergist.

No, they aren't logical conclusions.

ok, so you claim that God had all knowledge and never learned anything at any point in eternity but the path of man has not always been set?

You're confusing what man thinks is happening with what is actually happening. If man has no free will, then him *thinking* he has free will doesn't change that fact.

rather, i'm pointing out that man is making his decision based on what he desires to do in his heart and not on factors he doesn't know exists. god's decretive will was not in this man's consideration when he decided to knock off a bank. that's what james 1:13-15 says.


what is your definition of "free will"?

 

[-V-]

I didn't say you conceded the point, you just confirmed it.



choice to do what?

could God have made a world with no suffering and still have autonomous free will creatures? if yes, why didn't he(remember, God does not desire there to be suffering)?



you're dodging,

you can't prove the renderings to be inaccurate. if you can't prove their inaccuracy than your claim of contradiction is invalid since God's Word does not contradict itself.



not my job to work through the problems of someone else's soteriological system. i'm a monergist.



ok, so you claim that God had all knowledge and never learned anything at any point in eternity but the path of man has not always been set?



rather, i'm pointing out that man is making his decision based on what he desires to do in his heart and not on factors he doesn't know exists. god's decretive will was not in this man's consideration when he decided to knock off a bank. that's what james 1:13-15 says.


what is your definition of "free will"?

It doesn't seem like you've understood a single thing I've said. I'm not going to just keep going back & forth like this.

 

[RisenInJesus]

simple,

if God always knew what His creatures would do, and at no time learned this information, the path of man has always been set(by God and not by chance) and cannot be altered. you can't 'declare the end from the beginning' if there are an infinite number of variables.

this means many people are suffering and will spend eternity in hell because of a God who supposedly loves everyone and who wants everyone to be saved(according to you anyway).

let me ask you. did God put out the same amount of effort to save Hitler as he did to save Paul?

I believe God did put out as much effort to save Hitler as Paul by going to the cross for the sins of each of them. I think a more appropriate question may be "Why was Paul saved and not Hitler?"

It seems to me that the god of Calvinism is a very small god compared to the God of the Bible Who does know the beginning from the end, allowing real freedom and variables while still maintaining sovereign control.


"People can take one of two extremes in regard to this question. Some emphasize the sovereignty of God to the point that human beings are little more than robots simply doing what they have been sovereignly programmed to do. Others emphasize free will to the point of God not having complete control and/or knowledge of all things. Neither of these positions is biblical.'
How does God's sovereignty work together with free will?

'Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation."
Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct?

 

[RisenInJesus]

stop right here!

are you a universalist?

I am not a universalist. The Bible is clear that though Christ paid for the sins of everyone salvation and eternal life is conditional upon trusting Jesus and a gift which must be received.

 

[Strong in Him]

then why the statements about someone being "forced" to do something since both of us agree no one has ever made that claim?

I was responding to Phoebe ann's post.
I was asked, a) am I a universalist, and b) who would God save?
The answer to a) is no - which actually should have been clear from the post. In answer to b) I was pointing out that God HAS provided salvation through Jesus - and all through the Gospels it is clear that people have a choice whether to follow Jesus and accept his teaching, or not. My use of the word "force" was to emphasise this choice; it is not imposed on us, nor was mankind pre-programmed to obey God.

you just admitted no one made this argument yet you have posited it as the position of those who would hold to Calvinist doctrine that God would save those who would be drawn by the Father to the Son to be raised up.

No I haven't.
I was responding to another post from another forummer; I did not say "this is the entire calvinist position".

the problem with this position is that the angel announced that God WILL save his people from their sins. it does not say he will make us an offer...that we can(and will) easily refuse, but that He will absolutely accomplish salvation for his people.

He has; salvation has absolutely, totally been accomplished.
No one can add to it or change it. No one can say, "this is out of date now, we need something else." Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished". Done. Completed. Achieved. No negotiation possible.

BUT - take it or leave it; it is absolutely clear that some will leave it.

what you're proposing here is that he just threw us a life line and we might or might not take it.

No, he showed us the way of salvation.
Jesus is not a lifeline, he IS life. And some people won't receive him - just as some of the Pharisees didn't. They didn't accept he was the Messiah, tried to stone him because they believed he was blaspheming and accused him of doing miracles by the power of Satan.
Crowds of people followed Jesus, listened to him and received his miracles - but some didn't. That's how it's been ever since.

it required an act of God on our heart and mind to even choose to take this offer(Ezekiel 11:19-20).

God has provided this salvation, God stirs people to pray for unbelievers and God send his Spirit to work in the hearts of unbelievers so that they have an opportunity to hear, and accept, the Gospel. But when they are in that church, hall or stadium, listening to the Gospel, God does not compel them to raise their hands in the air or go to kneel at the altar rail. They decide whether or not to do that.
When Moses came down from Mt Sinai and saw the people partying, having made a golden calf, he said, "let everyone who is on the Lord's side come to me."
When Joshua renewed the covenant with Israel, he said, "choose this day who you will serve".
When Jesus called his disciples he said, "follow me"; he didn't drag them along.
When Adam was in the Garden, he was given a command from God; but he wasn't pre-programmed so that he had no choice except to obey.

We are made in God's image. God makes choices - he chose to give birds feathers and not fins, he chose to make elephants the size and shape that they are. HE chooses; why is it impossible that he would allow us to do that also?

 

[Rescued One]

No - which is why I wrote, "that is not to say that everyone will accept that salvation".



God has provided a Saviour and the means of salvation - Jesus.
Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except through him, John 14:6, and that whoever receives him will have eternal life, John 6:40. Also John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:60.
No one is forced to accept Jesus; some people chose to follow him, then deserted him when his teaching was too hard, John 6:66. We are not told that he chased after them to drag them back; he let them go. Similarly with the rich young ruler - no one forced him to walk away.

And no one forced Adam to disobey the command he had heard from God and eat the fruit.

But Adam had free will. God never forced anyone to sin. The natural man enjoys his sins. God never forced anyone to be a Christian. The spiritual man who has been quickened is no longer dead. He loves Christ and loves following Christ. Being quickened doesn't cause a person to kick and scream.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Colossians 2
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

(A spiritually dead person doesn't come to Christ. He can't will himself to be saved.)

John 5
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Titus 3
God's Mercy to Us
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Does the Creator of all, need man's permission to give him a life that is pleasing to God? He is the Potter; we are only clay.

Yes, possibly - in response to others' prayers.

Why possibly instead of certainly?

The teaching of the NT is "seek the Lord while he may be found; while you are able and before it is too late."

Yet the NT says:

Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[Anto9us]

Those are obviously true, so was there some other point of controversy you wished to bring up?

No points of controversy to bring up, jimmyjimmy.

I am just wondering exactly how to talk to the lost, rather than argue A against C, but that is another thread

Peace

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But Adam had free will. God never forced anyone to sin. The natural man enjoys his sins. God never forced anyone to be a Christian. The spiritual man who has been quickened is no longer dead. He loves Christ and loves following Christ. Being quickened doesn't cause a person to kick and scream.

Amen, Sister!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No points of controversy to bring up, jimmyjimmy.

I am just wondering exactly how to talk to the lost, rather than argue A against C, but that is another thread

Peace

I proclaim the gospel to the lost, when I have the opportunity. It's the means God prescribed.

This subject can be discussed among believers, and it is important, but a discussion regarding how a man gets saved is not the same thing as a proclamation of the gospel. We preach the gospel promiscuously because we don't know who God's elect are. We, like the Sower, scatter "seed" everywhere, and it will grow - in the "good soil".

 

[Anto9us]

a discussion regarding how a man gets saved is not the same thing as a proclamation of the gospel. We preach the gospel promiscuously

Indeed, and Amen.

Let us be wild and promiscuous!

In the good sense you proclaim it.

"Go thou, in this might of yours, and deliver all Israel from the hand of Midian"