The Injustice of Arminianism

[EmSw]

I think what you think what they are saying is that salvation is by works.
I also think that anyone would think exactly that if they ignored the context of God's sovereignity and how & why it is greater than the limited freedom of man's will.
Thanks for asking and expecting an answer without bothering to address any of what I said directly because it actually really helps in my character development, as discouraging of my hopes for good conversation it may be.

Rick, if you stood before God and He told you that you will surely die. But if you turn from your sin and practice righteousness and justice, walk by His statutes, and then none of those sins will be remembered against you, and you shall surely live, do you not think this is salvation?

It seems so many get caught up in 'context', they completely miss what each passages says. Let me give it to you again, and let it sink in, instead of trying to make it say something else.

Ezekiel 33
14 But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness,
15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.

These are God's words, not mine. If you say God is teaching us salvation by works, then why question it? If God's sovereignty teaches us salvation by works, why do so many people despise it?

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE="EmSw, post: 71551242, member: 351959"]Rick, if you stood before God and He told you that you will surely die. But if you turn from your sin and practice righteousness and justice, walk by His statutes, and then none of those sins will be remembered against you, and you shall surely live, do you not think this is salvation?

No. I think that is God telling me what unbelief is like.

It seems so many get caught up in 'context', they completely miss what each passages says. Let me give it to you again, and let it sink in, instead of trying to make it say something else.

I beg your pardon? My point is that you are doing exactly that.

These are God's words, not mine. If you say God is teaching us salvation by works, then why question it? If God's sovereignty teaches us salvation by works, why do so many people despise it?

Thanks for admitting it.

 

[-V-]

doesn't answer my question. who gave God the options of worlds he had to choose from to create?

Of course I answered it. If it was no one's choice but God's, that kinda narrows it down a bit, doesn't it.

If God always had knowledge of events that happened, and did nothing to stop them from happening, when he knew these things would occur and had no decretive desire for them to occur, how does this not make him powerless?

How many times does this have to be pointed out to you? He doesn't stop them because He CHOOSES to not stop them. It's still His decision, still leaving Him with His power & sovereignty.

again, I simply accurately interpreted what God's Word said. unless you want to argue these interpretations to be inaccurate(you have to prove it), my point stands.

As your interpretations apparently contradict each other, I don't need to argue against them or disprove them - they do that all on their own.

 

[Wordkeeper]

his full power and glory was temporarily restrained for the purpose of the incarnation.

I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand.

Ah.

The purpose required a relinquishment.

What relinquishment is required to have a spontaneous response of love?

 

[RisenInJesus]

it would seem that this omni-benevolent god does not have the power to create a world where his desire to save everyone can be fulfilled. it also seems like this omnipotent god is subject to the will of his creation.

I think the scriptures are clear enough that God desires to save everyone and Jesus has demonstrated His love for all humanity by going to the cross to pay for the sins of the world, making a way for reconciliation between God and man. Have you considered the possibility that although God desires all to be saved, as the scriptures indicate, He has a greater desire? The fact that all are not saved, rather than diminish His omnipotence or making Him subject to the will of His creation, I believe shows that God's priority in His offer of salvation is for a real relationship with each person who responds to His love and it is His will that such a relationship is based in His love which His creatures are free to receive or reject.

Calvinism, seems to present the idea of God choosing and collecting certain individuals as His trophies, for His glory, by determining they will be saved by His "irresistible grace (oxymoron)" power with no volition on their part to first respond to His love, while the remainder of humanity are left with no hope of salvation or way to be delivered from eternal damnation and suffering... also for His glory.

Any God who must control down to the detail as the God of Calvinism is portrayed, seems a very limited God, while the God of the Bible is presented as One who is more than able to allow by His will, genuine freedom for His creatures to respond to His love, all the while without His Sovereignty being threatened in the least. God is Love and love must be freely given or it is not real love at all.

 

[RisenInJesus]

this would also take away from God's omniscience as well as his omnipotence as God cannot know what autonomous free will creatures are going to do and is powerless to stop them from doing evil.

How is it possible that an omniscient, omnipotent God who is in the eternal realm, outside of time, who sees eternity past, and forward would not know what His creatures are going to do just because He may choose to allow them free will? Or make Him powerless to deal with their choices???

this 'apparent' contradiction comes from the assumption that those holding to the doctrines of grace believe that man doesn't have the ability to make choices. man in his fallen state absolutely can make choices. however, the one choice he is not able to make is the one to come to Christ in true repentance and faith. this is something that must be done by God to the creature(Ezekiel 11:19-20 john 6:43-44).

Why would God give man the ability to make to make all kinds of other choices, except the only choice that really matters for eternity?

I believe the scripture you used above from Ezekiel is in reference to the people of Israel after the return of Christ and is inapplicable as a proof-text for Calvinist soteriology. The verse in John also is pulled out of its context and used inappropriately to support Calvinism.

 

[TaiKamiya720]

Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God shows mercy to some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that? (according to the Arminian view)

Do you hold to a view of salvation which makes God out to be unjust? How do you defend your position?

The God of Calvinism would be like a fireman intentionally starting a fire and then putting it out. Or it would be like a lifeguard on a pool on a busy summer day being negligent about her duties. Furthermore, those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ. About those who have never hear the word of God and don't know him because of no access to Godly churches or teachers, like a Polynesian religion believing Polynesian who lives on a remote island, if he dies never hearing the word of God, he goes to hell. Free will believers and Calvinists agree on that. However, according to Calvinism, the Polynesian guy, in my example, would be pre-destined to go to hell before he was even born! How could that make the Calvinist God a just God?

 

[MDC]

The God of Calvinism would be like a fireman intentionally starting a fire and then putting it out. Or it would be like a lifeguard on a pool on a busy summer day being negligent about her duties. Furthermore, those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ. About those who have never hear the word of God and don't know him because of no access to Godly churches or teachers, like a Polynesian religion believing Polynesian who lives on a remote island, if he dies never hearing the word of God, he goes to hell. Free will believers and Calvinists agree on that. However, according to Calvinism, the Polynesian guy, in my example, would be pre-destined to go to hell before he was even born! How could that make the Calvinist God a just God?

What is called "Calvinism" on this thread, and the many other threads that have been started to explain the truth behind Calvinism, or in the case of pelagians to trample on it, is the gospel in its purest form. To deny "Calvinism" as it pertains to soteriology and the condition of man is to deny the gospel altogether. That's the truth! Those who promote free willism to elevate mans autonomy apart from Gods Sovereignty regurgitate the rhetorical question Paul states in Romans 9:19; "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?".. So in doing this, they find God to be unjust, by judging what is righteous and what's fair according to their wicked and deceptive hearts. This is the heart of fallen man. Full of pride and arrogance. The beauty of the grace and loving mercy of God in the gospel is made manifest in "Calvinism". Arminians are pelagians. Arminianism always leads back to pelagianism. Which is deification of man. These threads just hardens further those who deny the gospel of grace and also who trample under foot Gods Sovereignty in all of creation, including the salvation and condemnation of sinners. "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cash ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.." Mathew 7:6. The swine gravitate to these threads to show their hatred towards the God of scriptures and His gospel. And definitely not to learn about gospel truths

 

[Anto9us]

jimmyjimmy,
you CHOSE to start a thread on "The Injustice of Arminianism"

You CHOSE to, of your own Free Will

And posters responded to it of their own free wills.

Blessed be the name of the Lord.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

jimmyjimmy,
you CHOSE to start a thread on "The Injustice of Arminianism"

You CHOSE to, of your own Free Will

And posters responded to it of their own free wills.

Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Amen.

Those are obviously true, so was there some other point of controversy you wished to bring up?

 

[Rescued One]

God knew all that, and yet the majority will be damned (wide road). Therefore, He created people who He knew, prior to creating them, that they would be condemned. That is my only point.

The God of "free will" created people who He knew would not "have a chance" at reconciliation.

Exactly.

Sinners are not only will participants in this on their own account, they help others rebel against God. Your analogy isn't a good one because men aren't simply victims of Satan. They willfully cooperate with him.

I agree. The ones I've talked to who claim to be agnostics or atheists don't want to read the Bible or obey the ten commandments or become Christians.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The God of Calvinism would be like a fireman intentionally starting a fire and then putting it out. Or it would be like a lifeguard on a pool on a busy summer day being negligent about her duties. Furthermore, those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ. About those who have never hear the word of God and don't know him because of no access to Godly churches or teachers, like a Polynesian religion believing Polynesian who lives on a remote island, if he dies never hearing the word of God, he goes to hell. Free will believers and Calvinists agree on that. However, according to Calvinism, the Polynesian guy, in my example, would be pre-destined to go to hell before he was even born! How could that make the Calvinist God a just God?

You obviously do not understand Reformed theology, but that's very common among those who protest against it the most.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God saves some sinners = merciful

God condemns sinners = just

God makes a way for people to be saved that is never know by millions, and impossible to believe by millions more = Unjust and Unmerciful.

The god of Arminius is an inept, impotent, monster.

 

[Strong in Him]

God saves some sinners = merciful

God condemns sinners = just

God makes a way for people to be saved that is never know by millions, and impossible to believe by millions more = Unjust and Unmerciful.

The god of Arminius is an inept, impotent, monster.

What makes you think that a person will be condemned for never having heard the Gospel?
That would be unmerciful and unjust - and God is neither, so I don't believe it will happen.

 

[Rescued One]

What makes you think that a person will be condemned for never having heard the Gospel?
That would be unmerciful and unjust - and God is neither, so I don't believe it will happen.

God is omniscient. Why does He have to save everyone when that wasn't His plan? They aren't condemned for not having heard the Gospel. They are condemned because they don't want to follow Christ and wouldn't follow Him if they heard the Gospel.

 

[Strong in Him]

God is omniscient. Why does He have to save everyone when that wasn't His plan?

God is love, and a perfect heavenly Father. Why wouldn't he provide for the salvation of all those who he created in his image, and to whom he gave life, Genesis 2:7?
That's not to say that everyone will accept that salvation; but it's provided.

Would an earthly father who said to his wife, "I'll love and provide for this child, but reject and disinherit that one", be nominated for Father of the year? If sinful humans wouldn't behave like that, or acknowledge such behaviour as being cruel - how can we say that God would?

 

[Rescued One]

God is love, and a perfect heavenly Father. Why wouldn't he provide for the salvation of all those who he created in his image, and to whom he gave life, Genesis 2:7?
That's not to say that everyone will accept that salvation; but it's provided.

Are you a universalist? If not, what is the argument?

If all men are going to make decisions based on their sinful natures, who would God save? He'd still be waiting for the correct decision.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 7
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This is why the Bible tells us:

Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Would an earthly father who said to his wife, "I'll love and provide for this child, but reject and disinherit that one", be nominated for Father of the year? If sinful humans wouldn't behave like that, or acknowledge such behaviour as being cruel - how can we say that God would?

Sinful humans lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, don't have faith in God. Sometimes God intervenes and against their will prevents certain evil acts from happening. He allows one person to die and another to live. Are you calling Him cruel or do you claim that He is powerless?

 

[Strong in Him]

Are you a universalist?

No - which is why I wrote, "that is not to say that everyone will accept that salvation".

If all men are going to make decisions based on their sinful natures, who would God save? He'd still be waiting for the correct decision.

God has provided a Saviour and the means of salvation - Jesus.
Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except through him, John 14:6, and that whoever receives him will have eternal life, John 6:40. Also John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:60.
No one is forced to accept Jesus; some people chose to follow him, then deserted him when his teaching was too hard, John 6:66. We are not told that he chased after them to drag them back; he let them go. Similarly with the rich young ruler - no one forced him to walk away.

And no one forced Adam to disobey the command he had heard from God and eat the fruit.

Sinful humans lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, don't have faith in God. Sometimes God intervenes and against their will prevents certain evil acts from happening.

Yes, possibly - in response to others' prayers.

He allows one person to die and another to live.

In this fallen world, some people die from sickness and some die due to the sinful actions of others. Sometimes God may intervene to save them; sometimes not.
This is a different issue from providing salvation only for some. The Gospel is for all.
If people genuinely do not hear the Gospel; I believe they will be judged according to what they do know/believe and the things they have done. If someone has opportunities to hear the Gospel - attend a Gospel service, hear a street preacher, have a conversation with Christians, read the Bible they were given as a baby - but fails to take them; they may find that it's too late. No one knows when they will die. In the parable, the rich man said, "now I have built bigger barns I'll eat, drink and be merry" - and God said, "you fool; this night your soul will be taken". In Luke 13, when some people died when a tower suddenly collapsed, Jesus said, "unless you repent, you will die in your sins as they did."

The teaching of the NT is "seek the Lord while he may be found; while you are able and before it is too late."

Are you calling Him cruel or do you claim that He is powerless?

Neither.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If all men are going to make decisions based on their sinful natures, who would God save? He'd still be waiting for the correct decision.

This is the inescapable problem.

Like Newton's First Law, sinners are in a state of sin. If not acted upon, they will continue in that state. If God did not intervene, none would be saved. They simple could not be.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Of course I answered it. If it was no one's choice but God's, that kinda narrows it down a bit, doesn't it.

you didn't.

the question you answered, which I never asked, was "who made the choice of which world to create from the option provided?"

the question I asked, which you have yet to answer, is "who provided the options of worlds to create for God to choose from?".

I await your answer.

He doesn't stop them because He CHOOSES to not stop them. It's still His decision, still leaving Him with His power & sovereignty.

if you believe God loves all people, why would he allow suffering and why is there a hell?

if you believe God did not want those people to suffer, why did he create a world(not out of necessity, but purely out of prerogative) where it would happen?

this is assuming your answer to 'who provided the options of worlds to create for God to choose from' is God Himself.

As your interpretations apparently contradict each other, I don't need to argue against them or disprove them - they do that all on their own.

so then your position is that Scripture, God's Word, contradicts itself? if these interpretations are 100% accurate summaries of what God has proclaimed then that would be the only logical conclusion.

it still remains that there's nothing contradictory about God preordaining all actions and events in time and man making decisions based on his own will and desires. you've made the claim that it is. you're welcomed to prove it.