• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

The inconsistencies of the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Dr. Jack, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,238
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Oh, this is rich!!

    If that were true, then the WCF should have just said so; plain and simple. But their choice of words ARE contradictory, even though Calvinists simply deny reality.

    The truth is that the WCF statement is contradictory.

    The lie is that the WCF statement is not contradictory.
     
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,238
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Wow! No different at all from the political far left who keep trying to shut down free speech. For them, there is no tolerance for others of a differing view point.

    Nothing has been misrepresented. That statement is untrue, a misrepresentation, a lie. Take your pick.
     
  3. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    799
    +105
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    The WCF also says the following ...

    "II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, he orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

    III. God, in his ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at his pleasure.

    IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in his providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to his own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.

    - Westminster Confession: Chapter 5, Section 2-4"

    In post #163 you state ...
    So, essentially here is what I see, You are now telling me, "I can't answer your argument. So stop it, admit you're the bad person, or I'll go away."

    I have discussed Reformed Theology with many Calvinists, and when the rubber meets the road, they all do the same thing. They say if you disagree with their beliefs (which are written clearly in the WCF) you're simply wrong.

    I gave you the Scriptural use of both "decree", and "ordain". You gave me the option to change the words "decree" and "ordain" to a different word; but doing that changes the meaning of the statement.

    The writers of the WCF chose the words they chose, (not me). The Confession must stand according to the words written therein.

    Just so you are aware, just because thousands of people subscribe to the WCF doesn't make it true. There have been millions of people who have subscribed to creeds and or confessions that have been around longer that the WCF.

    The final authority is Scripture ... period.
     
  4. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    773
    +392
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The difference is in correctly saying that the event itself was decreed to come to pass including all of the choices involved in the event and yet the choices that make up the event were authored by the persons involved (as per the gift of free will) --- and saying that the choices themselves were authored by God and forced upon those involved in the event.

    One is the obvious intent of the statement in the WCF, whether you like the wording of the statement or not. The other is the purposeful misrepresentation of the statement which you have propagated here in the forum.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  5. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    799
    +105
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    Please explain how God decreed what our free will would be.
     
  6. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    773
    +392
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Again with your selective and deceptive wording. I can't believe that isn't being done by you on purpose.:(

    Omniscience allowed Him to know what the choices would be under certain parameters. (We've been through all that before.)

    Wisdom and purpose were employed in His bringing to pass the parameters in which He knew those choices would be made rather than His bringing to pass other parameters too numerous to discuss.
     
  7. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    799
    +105
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    Do you understand the difference between foreknowledge and a decree?
     
  8. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    773
    +392
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Yes.

    Foreknowledge has to do with what God knows, and has always known, will happen under certain circumstances. (We've been through these things before.)

    Decree has to do with what circumstances will be brought to pass by God according to His most wise and perfect will - culminating in certain happenings that He has always known will occur under said circumstances.

    All the while doing "no violence" to the will of the creature but rather establishing that free wlil through their choices.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,066
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Does anything happen randomly?
     
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,238
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Of course. What's the point?

    Of course, for every random act, God already KNEW (not decreed) that act would occur, and when it would occur. And all the effects of that act out into the future.

    In all these discussions, when Calvinists are cornered by the WCF, they default to God's omniscience. But the WCF is very clear. A decree by God means there can be no choices involved, other than His own choice of what He decrees.

    So, Calvinists speak out of both sides of their mouth. It's called double speak.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,066
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Then you don’t believe God is sovereign over all.

    That’s the point.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,238
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Your conclusion is extremely faulty. There is nothing in my post that should lead anyone to such a wrong conclusion.

    Being sovereign over all doesn't mean that He alone makes all the choices. That is the error of Calvinism.

    Which Dr Jack has so eloguently expressed.

    You don't have one.
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,066
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    You can choose to believe that things happen outside of God’s control. I choose to believe He’s sovereign over all, as scripture teaches.

    Soli deo gloria
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  14. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    799
    +105
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    Yes.

    9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. Ecclesiastes

    Let me explain this briefly; God being sovereign doesn't mean that He must 'micromanage' the universe. (Makining certain that every leaf that falls from every tree, falls at the exact place God decreed it to land.)

    9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. Ecclesiastes

    God can be in control, without micromanaging anything. Because God is omniscient, He is NEVER taken by surprise; rather, He is already prepared for what happens.

    Allow me to give you an example from Scripture:

    1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. Jonah

    God told Jonah to go to Nineveh to preach against it, but Jonah decided by his own will to go in the opposite direction.

    1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. Jonah

    God neither decreed Jonah to disobey, nor was God unprepared for Jonah's disobedience.
    1) In Jonah's free will, Jonah chose to disobey God.
    2) In God's foreknowledge, God knew the decision Jonah would make, as well as the decisions of those on the ship, including Jonah being cast overboard.
    3) In God being sovereign, He also was prepared to deal with Jonah by preparing a fish to swallow Jonah.

    1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Jonah

    Notice the words, "Now the LORD had prepared". The words "had prepared" showed that this was done by God because He had foreknowledge of the event (whatsoever comes to pass) but he did not decree the disobedience of Jonah.

    4) In God's omniscience God knew exactly what was necessary to cause Jonah to repent, and willingly desire to obey God.

    After spending three days and nights in the whale, Jonah prayed to God in repentance.

    God never decrees sin, but He allows it. (Huge difference)

    God was never out of control in the Book of Jonah. God allows "chance" to happen, and He allows man to exercise their will, without decreeing the end result of their decisions. He can do this because "foreknowledge" is part of omniscience.
     
  15. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    773
    +392
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Absolutely not.
     
  16. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    799
    +105
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy

    Is the following text Scripture?

    9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. Ecclesiastes

    Are the following words truth?

    "but time and chance happeneth to them all"
     
  17. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    799
    +105
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    In post # 179 I specifically pointed out how foreknowledge, omniscience, sovereignty, and omniscience worked together in the narrative of Jonah.

    Now, if you disagree, please exegete the text according to your understanding, and present your case, point by point.

    That is how it is done properly. We can't just say, "Because", we must support our position with Scriptures that show our position.

    Please, make your case.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,066
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. - Proverbs 16:33

    The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (Proverbs 21:1, NASB)
     
  19. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,238
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    But I never said that. Not even suggested that.

    For everything that occurs, must have God's permission. Not His decree. Not His order.

    [QTUOE] I choose to believe He’s sovereign over all, as scripture teaches.[/QUOTE]
    Absolutely true. I also believe that.

    But I don't believe that God decrees or orders everthing that happens.

    He sure permits a lot of stuff, though.

    Amen!
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,238
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Both Strong's Concordance and the NAS Exhaustive Concordance translate the Hebrew word as "judgment". That can easily be understood as God judging the outcome of the lot being cast. It doesn't say clearly and plainly that God causes every act in human history.

    Consider Pro 16:2 - All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD.

    God certainly does judge every act in human history. That's very clear from Scripture.

    What is never said is that God causes every act.

    Notice the second verse: A person may think their own ways are right, but the LORD weighs the heart.

    Do you see any connection between Prov 16 and 21?

    By "weighing the heart/motives" means that God judges them.

    Now, back to the "king's heart". The statement about the king's heart doesn't preclude His permitting the king's heart to go its own way. In fact, the Bible specifically says that God has let man go his own way, long before Fleetwood Mac sung the song.

    How do you understand these verses?

    Ezek 33:20 - Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

    mark 7:9 - And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

    Acts 14:16 - In the past, he let all nations go their own way.

    Certainly it's clear that God allows people to make their own choices.

    iow, He doesn't decree people's choices.

    If you simply substitute the word "decree" for "always known", then what we have isn't God causing/ordering/decreeing "all things, but that He knows all things.

    But Calvinists seem, by their own words, convinced that God's omniscience is determined by what He decides will happen. That is unbiblical.
     
Loading...