• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

The inconsistencies of the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Dr. Jack, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,225
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    There you go. So then, God ordered sin to happen.

    So, God ordered Adam to rebel and then held him accountable for what God ordered him to do.

    Why wasn't God consistent in His treatment of King David in the murder of Uriah?

    David ordered Joab to have Uriah killed in battle by violating rules of miliary combat.

    But since God "ordered all things", it was God who ordered David to order Joab to have Uriah murdered.

    So, Hammster, please explain WHY God held David personally responsible for Uriah's murder.

    [Staff edit].
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2019
  2. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    799
    +105
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    Patience, you must wait.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2019
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +15,709
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    1. neatly or conveniently arranged; well-organized: an ordered office.
    2. done according to specific principles or procedures: an ordered method of assembling the parts.
    3. conducted according to certain precepts or rules: an ordered way of life.
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,225
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    You said "everything that happens is ordered by God"

    So I said:
    "So then, God ordered sin to happen."
    <sigh> I see you punted, once again.

    So you're comparing "everything that happens" to a "well organized ordered office"? Seriously?

    #1 above doesn't apply to your previous comment.

    #2 and 3 are actions taken by the one who is doing the ordering. So, whether wittingly, or unwittingly, you have admitted that God orders (causes) sin.

    Finally.

    Thanks.
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +15,709
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    No I didn’t.
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,225
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    What you did was finally admit your position; that God orders sin. As in "makes it happen".

    Thanks.
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +15,709
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Makes it happen (to use simplistic terms) is different than making someone sin.
     
  8. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    799
    +105
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    When the WCF stated ...

    “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Ps 33:11†; Eph 1:11; Rom 11:33; Heb 6:17; Rom 9:15, 18):"

    ... doesn't that include Adam's transgression in the Garden of Eden, since that did in fact "come to pass"?
     
  9. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

    +3,186
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    I've read several, and cannot help but commend you for the excellent posts brother!

    For those interested:

    History of the Westminster Divines (HTML)

    History of the Westminster Divines (epub & Mobi)

    For a much shorter background history behind the WCF

    I remember when I began searching into the Calvinist understanding of free will, I had to learn about the meaning of the concept of "compatibilism". Further I had to learn what Calvinists meant by "total depravity" without reading my previous understanding into the meaning. The more I learned the more I learned how numerous and how often Calvinists are misrepresented and worse, even before embracing Calvinism myself, I came to a point where I just wanted to know the truth about what they believed, this only happened after I had railed against Calvinism for a short time myself, after I embraced the idea of becoming more "Calvinist friendly", open and willing to listen. It's interesting to think about all that led to my breaking point, and odd as it may sound, it began with doing the task of Christian apologetics online. Weird huh?
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +15,709
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Yes.
     
  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,225
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Nope. But then, I'm familiar with double speak.

    The one who "makes it happen" is the one who is the CAUSE of the action.

    But, I'd be interested in your explanation of how making something happen is different than making someone sin.

    Keep in mind the focus here. To "make IT happen" refers to SIN.

    So, basically, you admit that God makes SIN happen, but He doesn't make the sinner SIN.

    I eagerly await your explanation.
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +15,709
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. - Genesis 50:20

    this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:23
     
  13. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    698
    +364
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Interesting that you should stipulate "without considering anything else" since the statement so obviously contains a great deal more than that.

    Do you cherry pick the scriptures and purposefully take them out of context without bringing others to bear on them as well when establish your doctrine?

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves."

    "Now without considering anything else; what does the above statement mean?"
    I can hardly wait to ask him about it. I’m pretty sure He’ll explain His purpose to all to us.

    “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12
     
  14. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    698
    +364
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Caesar indeed did not decree the sun going down.

    Nor would he have been able to make it do so any more than he could calm a storm on the Sea of Galilee.

    Our God - not so much.

    Of course, unlike God, Caesar was not omnipresent in the sun and the sun was not created by his decree and the sun did not have it's existence in his decree.

    Knowing Caesar, it might be that he wished it could be so for him. Satan without doubt wishes it could be so for him. But it just ain't gonna happen.

    You're comparing Caesar with God? Really?:scratch:
     
  15. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    698
    +364
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Exactly. Caesar’s decree was what the WCF would call, when referring to God, the “1st cause“ of any movements of people (if your example can rightly be stretched to apply to the creator and sustainer of the universe - and it really is quite a stretch).

    The 2nd causes of any movements, or lack of movements for that matter, were the choices made by men to either comply with what they knew Caesar wanted or not to comply.

    They chose to move or not. It was their choice to make. Caesar made it clear what he wanted. But Caesar did not make them get up and move. They could have rebelled.

    What God does is decree that there be choices made under the parameters He has created or allowed to come to exist at any point in time and then leaves it up to the people involved as to what those choices will be.

    For instance – He could have decreed that His miracles be done in Tyre and Sidon rather than in Chorazin and Bethsaida and that the people of Tyre and Sidon would make their own choices to repent or not to repent. It would be their choice to make.

    According to what you say the WCF teaches – God authored the sin of a lack of repentance and then assign that sin to the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida and then held them responsible.

    That is not the teaching of the WCF by any stretch of interpretation.

    To make your own analogy fit our discussion – you would have to say that Caesar decreed that a particular person (say like Barabbas) would refuse to do his will to pay taxes and that Caesar would then hold him responsible when all he did was obey that decree by not paying his taxes.

    That’s the kind of thing you say about the WCF’s statement and it’s a clear misrepresentation.

    The main difference between your example and what God does according to the WCF is that God decrees only that choices be made by individuals at certain points in time within the parameters God Himself has chosen to provide and involve Himself in in His almost innumerable ways. He has not decreed (as in authored or assigned) the particular choices individuals make. They have been given free will.

    I know you subscribe to that idea and I know that the WCF does as well. They say so regardless of your cherry picked portions of their statement.

    God does not decree, author, or assign the particular choices men will make. As the WCF clearly puts it - the liberty to choose is not taken away from them by the decree that they make a choice of their own choosing at a certain point in time within the Parameters God provides for them.

    Again for the last time - the WCF is crystal clear about that.

    Of course - judging by the question from you that I addressed in a post a bit earlier – you are basing your entire attack on the statement in the WCF on just one half of the statement. When people won’t play into your out of context game because they see right through it – you just keep throwing out your straw men and hope there will be some new and gullible wanna be theologians here who will buy into what you are representing about the beliefs and teachings of the WCF and end up sharing your disdain for the Reformed position.

    By the way - just where do you think God is and what do you think He’s doing while men make their choices - out getting popcorn with what's his name?

    I've often said that those who would argue against these statements by the WCF must almost have to worship a different God than the one I see described in the scriptures.

    I'll add to that now what seems appropriate – a God more like Caesar.
     
  16. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    698
    +364
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Since I’m about to the point where I’m pulling the plug on this thread - I’ll respond to this one question of yours even though I decided long ago not to give you the time of day here.

    It’s existence is not dependent. God’s nature is the sum total of all of His attributes.

    When those attributes are exercised in something He does - without doubt one defines the other. They are indivisible.

    E.g. – God’s wisdom defines His omnipotence. He cannot and would not create a rock so big that He cannot lift it. OR God is truth. Therefore He cannot lie.

    Regarding your charge that God’s omniscience is “dependent” on His sovereignty in Calvinism – same answer.

    God knows everything He does because He is the One Who has chosen to do it. God does everything He has always known He will do.

    And again.

    You honestly want me to believe that that's the only way you can think of to word that and you didn't word it that way to misrepresent what I believe?

    That will probably be the last time I read one of your purposeful misrepresentations of what the WCF teaches.

    God’s Spirit will not always strive with sinful man and mine will not much longer strive with those who tell falsehoods about what I believe.

    I will leave off striving with you if you repeat even one more time your misrepresentation of what I and the WCF teach.

    You have free will. Make your choice. One more failure to address this issue in a proper and substantive way and it will be the last post I will read or address on this thread. I have given you the benefit of the doubt and you seem to me to have shown yourself purposefully duplicitous in the way you represent your brothers in Christ..

    You and what’s his name can just stroke and massage one another with your shallow theology and I’ll just pray that no new believer is taken in by your misrepresentation of the teaching of the WCF.

    OR

    You can resolve to discuss these issues in a fair manner. If you do that – I have a great deal more to say and IMO you’d be well advised to take advantage of it.

    I'll check back sometime later to see what your decision is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,225
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I said:
    "So, basically, you admit that God makes SIN happen, but He doesn't make the sinner SIN.

    I eagerly await your explanation."
    You are missing the point. God didn't cause or "order" the evil against Joseph, but from His omniscience, He used that evil for good. iow, His own purposes.

    So this verse isn't even relevant to the discussion of God ordering actions. It addresses certain actions that God USES for His own good.

    Again, this verse doesn't help you at all, and still misses the point of discussion.

    God used the evil actions of men, that He always knew would occur, for good.

    What it doesn't say is that God ordered anyone to crucify His Son.

    But you've already admitted what non Calvinists have always believed about Calvinism: in your view, God orders evil.

    To which I say, nonsense. He never orders evil. He knows in infinite detail when and where it will occur, and permits that which occurs.

    Calvinism could have avoided a whole lot of grief if instead of using such words as "orders", "decrees", "ordains" in regard to "whatsoever comes to pass", Calvinism should have simply acknowledged that God always knew "whatsoever comes to pass".

    But, you sure clarified the Calvinist position. God orders sin. Quite unbiblical.
     
  18. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,225
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Not an answer at all. Your claim that God's attributes "define the other" is an opinion, not fact. But you are free to believe whatever you want to.

    And...you just made my point. You have clearly stated that God's omniscience (knows everything) because He has CHOSEN to do it."

    Bingo! Thanks for the affirmation of my point. You have just subserved God's omniscience to His sovereignty. What God chooses to do comes from His sovereignty.
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +15,709
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    That’s not what it says.

    I gave you scripture that explained my view. You make same scripture say something it doesn’t. If that’s how you plan on handling scripture, then there’s nothing to discuss.
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,225
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Right. I showed what it doesn't say, but which it seems you are wanting it to say.

    And I gave my explanation of why neither verse supports your view.

    No, that'd be on you.

    OK, no problem. You've been caught, and you know it, so there's nothing left to discuss.

    That's what I get every time a poster gets cornered. They cease to discuss. Which is your freedom.

    But just remember: you claimed that God orders "whatsoever comes to pass". Sin sin has come to pass, that's a statement that God orders sin.

    You can't get around it. So the only avenue left for you is to exit.

    :wave:

    I understand.
     
Loading...