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The inconsistencies of the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Dr. Jack, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Flame?? I don't play with matches.

    Is there any part or sect of Calvinism that isn't Covenant theology?
     
  2. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Calvinistic Baptists of the dispensational variety. To this day I do not have a systematic or taken any hard eschatological position. On the topic of eschatology, I can only affirm I am not a dispensationalist. Initially when I came to embrace the Doctrines of Grace, for quite some time I remained undecided in trying to figure out whether I had more in common with Calvinistic Baptists, Presbyterians, or Calvinistic Anglicans. I also struggled with holding certain Charismatic beliefs I had maintained concerning spiritual gifts after embracing the Doctrines of Grace. For a time it comforted me to know I was far from the only Charismatic Calvinist, but eventually I came to embrace cessationist beliefs. None of this just happened overnight, and not without reason and struggle, at least not in my case.
     
  3. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    No - that isn't the subject of this thread.

    I have my own differences with so called 5-point Calvinists. But the sending forth of His Word to bring to pass what He has predestined to occur isn't one of them.

    You have not adequately addressed the idea that nothing even exists without the omnipresent and providentially controlling Word of God (the "decree" of God as the Reformers called Him - and which we have been talking about here) - He having been sent forth to accomplish exactly what God wants accomplished in this age).

    You have attempted to pivot the discussion to altogether different doctrines also taught by Calvinists. I simply don't intend to play along. There have been and are plenty of threads where you can do that to your heart's content.
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Thanks for the info. I didn't know.

    Could you summarize what, exactly, are the doctrine of Grace? I'm not Calvinistic at all, but I certainly recognize that everything from God is by His grace alone.

    Wow. More info I wasn't aware of. By "cessationist", are you referring to annhiliationism?
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    The problematic word in your paragraph is "controlling". Again, you are putting the cause of sin directly in God's hand. That is NOT found in Scripture, no matter how much you deny or spin it.

    While God was certainly aware of the issue of sin being the result of free will, He didn't "decree" it to happen, as in "controlling" creatures as your paragraph indicates.

    What you have not adequately proven is that God decrees sin.
     
  6. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    It's not problematic at all.

    If you don't think all manner of sin is being controlled by God for His purposes you need to read the book of Job - not to mention the gospel accounts of the murder of Jesus Christ.

    If you think that sin is out of control and you turn out to be right - we're all in trouble.
    I have address the "causation" of sin many times now and who is responsible for it's authorship. No Reformed believer would ever say, as you charge that we do, that sin is "directly in God's hand". In fact you have been corrected on that misrepresentation of our beliefs several times now.

    There's no "spin" involved in reporting what the scriptures tell us.

    Again - if you don't realize that God is the "1st cause" of sin as the WCF puts it - you need to take another look at the book of Job.

    Nothing happens without God's OK - His "providential control" as we say.
    I clearly said "providentially controlling".

    As the Webster's dictionary tells us - that has to do with divine guidance and care. It has to do with the idea that there is an all wise higher power sustaining and guiding human destiny.

    It has nothing to do with authoring the sins of men or angels themselves. Please don't go there again. That's been addressed.
    As I have corrected you on many times now - God decreed that sin be allowed in His creation through the free choices made by men and angels. He did not author it.

    The Calvinist source, the WCF, has made that abundantly clear. You are simply misrepresenting their position - just as you have done to mine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
  7. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Once again we need to look at what particular words mean, and how they differ.

    1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians

    Here we see the word "consist". It has the meaning of holding things together. God, by his 'decree' holds all things together.
    A molecule of water has two hydrogen atoms, and one oxygen atom. God designed covalent bonds to hold them together. God, by his decree bonds everything in the universe together. This is the meaning of "and by him all things consist".

    10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. Acts

    I was ordained into the ministry in 1992, after graduating Bible college, and serving under a Senior Pastor for two years. Ordination is an anointing, and and appointing of an individual for a specific service for God. Ordination is directly in relation to service. Jesus Christ was specifically appointed to the service of being the Judge mankind.


    22:28 Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways. Job

    A decree in Scripture is a law, ordinance, statute or any command that is binding upon those whose are under the jurisdiction of the one issuing the decree. I was never a suggestion, or something other than an order of authority. Hence, any event that God "decreed" was not optional, but rather, an absolute.


    1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Peter

    Foreknowledge is knowing what is going to occur, prior to it occurring. It must be understood that "foreknowledge" is not necessarily connected to being a cause of the event. I can see an airplane doing a "nose dive" in such a way that I know it is going to crash, and have no cause in the event whatsoever.


    2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Acts

    The word "determinate" speaks of not only having a future knowledge of an event, but to cause a particular outcome of that event. In the above text, God delivered His Son Jesus Christ into the hands of sinful men for the express purpose of having Him be crucified as the Lamb of God.

    This needs to be stated in conjunction with the above information:

    50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Genesis

    God had foreknowledge of the events of Joseph's life. His brothers meant to do harm to Joseph. However, God, by His determinate counsel, also had a plan for Joseph. God did not decree, nor determine the evil that Joseph's brothers did to Joseph, but God used Joseph in that seemingly condemned state to prepare Joseph to be placed as the deliverer for his brethren. God did not determine the evil against Christ; but He did determine that Christ would be the Lamb of God.

    (As a side note: It is interesting how every sacrifice of the OT typifies Christ; and yet, none of the Jewish leaders could make this connection. In crucifying Christ, they unknowingly, yet willingly (even with evil hearts), fulfilled the one event that God actually did determine.)

    God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of every event, but He only determines particular events such as Christ being the Redeemer of mankind. Having knowledge of every event is part of omniscience; yet, that in no way requires God to have determined those events.
     
  8. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    1) The WCF isn't Scripture any more than the Talmud is Scripture. One is Reformed, the other is Jewish.
    2) Let's look at Job:

    1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job

    A) Satan told God he was going around trying to get people to sin.
    B) God asked Satan a rhetorical question: "Hast thou considered my servant Job ... "
    C) Satan is fully aware of the protection God has provided Job. Then issues God a challenge (STUPID MOVE)
    D) God does NOT issue a decree to attack Job, rather, He simply lifted some of His protections from Job.
    E) Satan attacks Job to the very fullest that he may with these new parameters. Satan acted within his own will, no decree was given to actually attack.

    Notice: "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand."

    This is saying that the restraining order has been lifted, there is no actual decree to attack.

    Nowhere in the Book of Job does God issue a decree for Satan to attack Job, God only lifts the restraining order from Satan, allowing him to attack ... there is a HUGE difference.
     
  9. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    God did decree man to have a free will. Maybe you can explain why that is a problem.
     
  10. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    No, cessationalism is the doctrine that tongues and other gifts ceased with the departure of the Apostles.
     
  11. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    How about instead of playing target practice, I'll provide a couple of links for further research:

    Calvinism Fact Sheet

    The Five Points of Calvinism

    "In Christianity, cessationism is the doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the apostolic age." wikipedia
    I probably lean more towards a moderate cessationism.

    Anyway back to regularly scheduled program...
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Job wasn't even about sin. And Satan was essentially left to his own free will in both ch 1 and 2. In ch 1 the only restriction was that he couldn't touch Job physically. In the second chapter he couldn't kill Job. Other than those 2 limitations, Satan was free to do whatever he wished.

    Since I never said anything about sin being "out of control", your comment is quite irrelevant.

    I guess I need to remind you what you yourself said at the beginning of your post;
    "all manner of sin is being controlled by God for His purposes"

    And, yet, you don't even see your own double speak here.

    I've already given examples of Calvinistic spin on verses; Eph 1:4 as just one.

    As I've already shown above, I believe you need to. Again, it's not even about sin.

    It is about Satan's free will.

    I absolutely agree that nothing happens without God's permission. But that isn't even close to "providential control".

    If He is letting something occur, He's not controlling it.

    See above.

    I suggest you read Webster's definition of "decree" again. It appears you missed it.

    But that ain't what the WCF says.

    Nope. Just pointing out the inconsistencies.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Oh, right. I forgot. Thanks.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I addressed all 5 points briefly in post #54. If you'd like to respond, refute, etc, please proceed.
     
  15. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    I would except that's not my position, the following Chapter from WCF represents my position:

    Chapter IX: Of Free Will

    1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil (Matt 17:12; Jas 1:14; Deut 30:19; Isa 7:11-12†; John 5:40†; Jas 4:7†).

    2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God (Eccl 7:29; Gen 1:26; Phil 2:13‡; Col 3:10†); but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it (Gen 2:16-17; 3:6).

    3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Rom 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44, 65†; 15:5): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Rom 3:10, 12), and dead in sin (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (John 6:44, 65; 3:3, 5-6†; Eph 2:2-5; 1 Cor 2:14; Tit 3:3-5).

    4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin (Col 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Rom 6:6-7†); and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good (Phil 2:13; Rom 6:18, 22); yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil (Gal 5:17; Rom 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; 1 John 1:8†, 10).

    5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (Eph 4:13; Heb 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 24; Rev 21:27†).
    Disappointed?
     
  16. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    His_Student: "As I have corrected you on many times now - God decreed that sin be allowed in His creation through the free choices made by men and angels. He did not author it."

    Here is a partial quote from WCF on the subject:

    Chapter III: Of God’s Eternal Decree

    1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Ps 33:11†; Eph 1:11; Rom 11:33; Heb 6:17; Rom 9:15, 18): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (Ps 5:4†; Jas 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5; Eccl 7:29†; Hab 1:13†), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Acts 2:23; Matt 17:12; Acts 4:27-28; John 19:11; Prov 16:33).

    2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions (Acts 15:18 [TR]; 1 Sam 23:11-12; Matt 11:21, 23), yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions (Rom 9:11, 13, 16, 18).
    WCF doesn't say what?
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Let's just note the contradiction in point 1.

    First, it says that "God unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass".

    Then in the same breath, it says "yet neither is God th author of sin".

    Just making these 2 claims don't make them both true.

    The 2 statements are CONTRADICTORY.

    If God ordains "whatever comes to pass" that would INCLUDE sin, since sin did come to pass.

    Whoever ordains a plan IS the author of that plan.

    I'll give you an example from Scripture.

    The murder of Uriah the Hittite. Who murdered him?

    a. army of Rabbah
    b. Joab
    c. David

    God held David guilty of murder of Uriah. Yet, David never laid a hand on him. But it was David who ORDAINED the plan to have Uriah killed.

    So, WHOEVER ordains an action, IS the author of that action.

    So, the WCF is contradicted.
     
  18. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    I have used that example of Scripture for years ... I have a bit more patience than you though. I wait until my opponent is neck deep in his argument, then bring that up.

    You did present it well, showing the multiple layers between David and the army of Rabbah.

    But if you don't mind, let me expound a bit.

    In Calvinism, the argument of secondary causes is that the FINAL "free agent" is culpable for the offence. (Not the FIRST free agent that decreed the event.

    In the story presented FROM SCRIPTURE the army of Rabbah killed Uriah the Hittite.

    There were however four levels of free agents involved in Uriah's death.

    1. The army of Rabbah.
    2. The men of the Israelite army under Joab's command that knew this action was wrong, because it was a practice of war at that time to not to get too close to the walls because of hot oil, and or stones being dropped on them.
    3. Joab. When Joab sent word to King David, we read the following:
    11:20 And if so be that the king's wrath arise, and he say unto thee, Wherefore approached ye so nigh unto the city when ye did fight? knew ye not that they would shoot from the wall?11:21 Who smote Abimelech the son of Jerubbesheth? did not a woman cast a piece of a millstone upon him from the wall, that he died in Thebez? why went ye nigh the wall? then say thou, Thy servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also. 2 Samuel
    Joab also knew this act was wrong.
    4. David. David orchestrated this entire event, and God held him alone responsible.

    But let's take this one step further:
    The WCF states, "God unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass" ... this means that there were actually five steps to the above story.

    5. God. God ordained each of the above previous steps (according to Calvinism). Now since (according to Calvinism) only the FINAL free agent is culpable, why didn't God hold the army of Rabbah responsible for Uriah's death?

    Why did God skip not only the FINAL free agent, but the second, and third to the final free agent. So God skipped three free agents, to pin the responsibility of Uriah's death on David, but stopped short of blaming Himself of what He Himself ordained (according to Calvinism).

    Maybe one of our Calvinist here would like to answer that question.
     
  19. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    Right on - just as the WCF says.

    (Of course, unlike the plans of men, all of GOD's plans are altogether good and according to His good and perfect will - just in case you are comparing God to sinners. You are by the way.)
    Me too.

    The murder of Jesus Christ. Who murdered Him?
    a. The army of Rome
    b. The rulers of the Jews
    c. God

    God held the rulers of the Jews guilty of the murder of Jesus Christ.
    Yet God never laid a hand on Him.
    Yet it was God, according to both the scriptures and the WCF, Who ORDAINED the plan to kill Jesus Christ.

    God is the author of the "plan", as you say.
    But He is not the author of the sins of the rulers of the Jews.
    Not at all. The WCF is confirmed by scripture.

    YOU, on the other hand, want to hold the God of the scriptures responsible. And that - not because of something the WCF says - but because of what the scriptures themselves say.
     
  20. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    So let me get this right, the Scriptures show that God DOES NOT hold the FINAL free agent culpable, He holds the Person that DECREED the event culpable. The WCF holds the last free agent culpable, which contradicts the Scriptures, yet you keep defending the WCF ... Why?
     
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