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The inconsistencies of the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Dr. Jack, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    I will address your comment tomorrow ... it's bedtime.
     
  2. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    My question was ...
    Now the idea here was to have you give me a "declarative answer" and not an "interrogative response". The former is a statement of fact; while the latter is merely a question.

    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.


    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.

    No declarative answer.

    I asked a very specific question and you have given me 12 interrogative responses; none of which declaring what God actually did to get Adam to chose to eat the forbidden fruit. Your only declarative statement begins with "Just know" ... Just know based on what?

    You actually tell me that I "quite obviously have not heretofore thought through these things in a systematic and thorough manner", and yet you cannot present a single declarative statement as to what God did to make Adam choose to eat the forbidden fruit. Remember, you stated:

    You are now the one who must tell me WHAT CERTAIN THINGS God did to get Adam to choose to eat the forbidden fruit.

    That doesn't mean supply a list of what might God might have done, it means a list of things God DID.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    You realize it’s Proverbs, correct?
     
  4. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Is there any person that subscribes to Reformed Theology, Covenant Theology, Calvinism, or Determinism that can tell me what EXACTLY did God do to get Adam to choose to sin in the Garden of Eden?
     
  5. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Even Proverbs have a intended context.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    Okay. Let me know.
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    The same thing He did to get men to crucify His Son.
     
  8. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Adam did NOT have a sin nature. Therefore something had to be done to make him choose to sin. What did God do to insure Adam would choose to sin?
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    Asked and answered.
     
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I take back my comment in post #210.

    For, you sure did give a straight answer. In post #122, you said this:

    "whatever happens is ordered by God."

    If that isn't a puppetry theology, I don't know what is.

    So, it wasn't David who ordered the murder of Uriah. It was God Himself.

    Yet, God held David directly accountable for Uriah's murder.

    And Calvinists cannot explain why He did.

    Maybe you can explain why He did. You yourself said that God orders whatever happens.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    You are asking “how” questions. I have no idea how.

    But, let me ask you this. Did God incite David to take a census, and did He hold David accountable for that sin?
     
  12. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Samuel

    21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 1 Chronicles

    Please notice:
    1) And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel
    2) In that anger, God allowed Satan to provoke David to number the people.

    21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. 21:3 And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? 21:4 Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem. 1 Chronicles

    3) Joab warned David concerning the numbering of God's people. Hence, David could have chosen to reconsider his decision.

    4) David had a sin nature, Adam did not. Meaning that David was already by nature a sinner; while Adam was not.

    Is there a Scripture reference that provides evidence that God decreed, or ordained Adam to sin.
     
  13. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    So God ordered Adam to sin ... but what did God do to make Adam choose to sin?
     
  14. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    “I’m your huckleberry. That’s just my game.”

    Wow – lots of activity on this subject considering that you just hit me with it around midnight last night.

    I’ve been fishing all morning. I have a life besides arguing with obstinate people on the internet.

    By the way - I can see why you needed to sleep on it. It takes a clear mind to argue especially when you are making bogus charges..

    Your entire long post number 203 is bogus from the word go. If you had spent the last 14 hours or so thinking about what you posted there rather than posting more tripe – you might have been able to edit it by now and your charges would not look so foolish.

    By the way – it doesn’t surprise me that what’s his name is tagging your posts “winner” since you both like to play the same kind of games rather than talk substance.

    That post looked a lot like you composed it trying hard to impress someone. Apparently what's his name is the only one who bit. Of course he's the only one here who's thought the subject through even less than you have.

    But let’s get to it - since you’re so obviously anxious.
    I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “get Adam to choose to sin”. But I’ll try to address it giving you the benefit of the doubt that you don’t mean that question in the misrepresentative way you have formed such sentences in the past. I.e. You say that the WCF teaches that God took away the liberty of Adam to make a choice of his choosing – when it clearly says otherwise.

    Adams choice to sin was his to make without any coercion on God’s part. It is just as the WCF says - remember?

    “Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.” And “nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”
    That simply is not true.

    My very first sentence was your declarative answer.
    The rest of the post was by way of fleshing that very straight forward answer out for you.

    I gave you a general answer as to what God did simply because there is no specific answer given to us in the scriptures. Like I said:
    You want me to speculate on something where we have no statement from God on the matter. Never the less I gave you 5 possibilities as to the strongest factual that influenced Adam's sin. I can give you more. But then you’ll just argue about those as well.
    I already did. It’s highlighted in red above.

    By the way - since you seem to want more specificity I also gave you 5 “CERTAIN THINGS” God did. You can read them for yourself in my post and your post as well..

    It’s apparent that this will be more games by you just like what’s his name would play – rather than honest dialog about theology. You don’t want constructive dialog. You only want to argue.

    In this case your argument was bogus from the get go.

    I’m going to give you another chance to make a sensible post and if it’s just more argument for argument’s sake – I’ll call it a thread and you and what’s his name can “winner” and “like” each other til the cows come home.

    You won’t grow in knowledge that way – but then you don’t seem to want to stretch and grow anyway
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    You didn’t answer my question. So why should I answer yours?
     
  16. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    So your best answer is ...
    So God built a framework of events, laws, and or circumstances wherein Adam would choose sin.

    I was brought up in the country. My father was a Mennonite who was a teen during the great depression. He was brought up around horses.

    Now, there is a saying that goes like this ...

    "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". (Maybe you've heard of it.)

    A person said that to my dad once, but my dad then said, "But you can salt his oats". I had to ask my dad what that meant.

    Horses don't drink unless they feel the need to drink. It's just their character. However, if you know you are going to take a horse out to work, he needs to be hydrated prior to the work.

    But even if you put his mouth in water, he won't drink. The solution is to cause him to be thirsty.

    It is very simple: get a small bucket, then put in some oats, and then mix in salt (like for deer) to the oats.

    1) The horse will eat the oats because they love oats.
    2) The salt in the oats does the same thing to a horse, that it does to people, it cause them to want water, (it is a natural chemical reaction built into our bodies).

    Hence, the horse that unwilling five minutes ago to drink water, is now willing to drink water. Why? Because the man, being smarter than the horse, manipulated the will of the horse.

    So, this is the paradigm that my dad used to force the horse to drink, when it wasn't otherwise willing.

    You are saying that God manipulated the circumstances in the Garden of Eden to cause Adam to sin. Isn't that just a bit deceptive?
     
  17. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    What question is that?
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    I don’t know what God did so that Adam would sin and make us need a Savior so that the Godhead could be glorified at the cross. There’s not a lot of “how” in the Bible. Just “what”.
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    I’m not playing games. You can follow the convo back and see.
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I pointed out:
    " In post #122, you said this:

    "whatever happens is ordered by God.""
    I have no idea why you think I asked a "how" question. I pointed out your very clear answer; that whatever happens is order by God.

    Great question, and it makes my point, not yours.

    But, first, let's consider the actual context for this inciting.

    2 Sam 24:1- Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

    There it is. God used David to discipline Israel.

    v.15 - So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel from that morning until the appointed time, and of the people from Dan to Beersheba, seventy thousand men died.

    Of course God uses people and nations to carry out His discipline on those He disciplines.

    This in no way holds God responsible for David's sin. In fact, since God incited David to do it, who bore the brunt of the discipline? Israel. Now, re-read v.1 and it all comes together.

    However, what you cannot explain is why God held David personally accountable for Uriah's murder? If God incited David to murder Uriah, there is NO indication from the text that God intended to discipline anyone, as 2 Sam 24 shows who God was angry with.

    What David did was all on him, alone. That's why God disciplined David for that sin.
     
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