The Incomplete Protestant Reformation:

[BABerean2]

The following paper by Brother David H J Gay reveals the incomplete nature of the Protestant Reformation.

The confusion between the Sinai Covenant (Exodus 34:28) and the New Covenant of Christ is still with us today.

The battle began in Acts chapter 15, when the Judaisers attempted to merge the Old Covenant with the New Covenant.

We are not come to the mountain that burns with fire, but instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion.
We have a better mediator than Moses, through the Blood of Christ. (See Hebrews 12:18-24, Hebrews 8:6-13)

We are under a higher law (The Law of Christ in 1 John 3:22-24), not for salvation, but for our conduct.

Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, which was the "sign" of the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant.
For those in the New Covenant, Christ is now our Sabbath rest every day of the week. (Col. 2:16-17)


Many in the modern Church have failed to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" found in Galatians 4:24-31.

They are clinging onto the "ministry of death", instead of embracing the ministry of the Spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

The confusion between the two covenants is seen daily on this forum.

A person cannot understand eschatology without acknowledging the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.



http://media.sermonaudio.com/articles/da-861792415-6.PDF

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[Dale]

The following paper by Brother David H J Gay reveals the incomplete nature of the Protestant Reformation.

The confusion between the Sinai Covenant (Exodus 34:28) and the New Covenant of Christ is still with us today.

The battle began in Acts chapter 15, when the Judaisers attempted to merge the Old Covenant with the New Covenant.

We are not come to the mountain that burns with fire, but instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion.
We have a better mediator than Moses, through the Blood of Christ. (See Hebrews 12:18-24, Hebrews 8:6-13)

We are under a higher law (The Law of Christ in 1 John 3:22-24), not for salvation, but for our conduct.

Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, which was the "sign" of the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant.
For those in the New Covenant, Christ is now our Sabbath rest every day of the week. (Col. 2:16-17)


Many in the modern Church have failed to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" found in Galatians 4:24-31.

They are clinging onto the "ministry of death", instead of embracing the ministry of the Spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

The confusion between the two covenants is seen daily on this forum.

A person cannot understand eschatology without acknowledging the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.



http://media.sermonaudio.com/articles/da-861792415-6.PDF

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Is this Replacement Theology?

It sounds like that's what you are advocating.

 

[jgr]

Is this Replacement Theology?

It sounds like that's what you are advocating.

He's advocating what the writer of Hebrews is advocating.

Would you consider the writer of Hebrews to be advocating Replacement Theology?

 

[phydaux]

No, not at all.

Since the writer of Romans spends all of chapter 11 saying that God is not done with Israel.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[BABerean2]

No, not at all.

Since the writer of Romans spends all of chapter 11 saying that God is not done with Israel.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Paul said he was an Israelite, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul begins Romans 11:1-5 with two groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah.
Most Israelites during that time had turned to Baal.
However, a remnant of 7,000 Israelites had remained faithful to God.
Paul said there was also a faithful remnant during his time, and we find in Romans 9:27 that a "remnant" will be saved.
In Romans 9:6-8 we are told not all of fleshly Israel is Israel of the promise.


Are all of the Israelites "partially" blinded, or are part of the Israelites blinded and part are not blinded?

Based on Luke 21:24-28, the times of the Gentiles ends at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelite and Gentile branches.

Paul says the branches broken off can be grafted back into the tree, through faith in Christ. This is the Greek word "houto", which is the manner of their salvation in Romans 11:26. It is not the timing of their salvation.
I have heard many preachers either change the word "so" to the word "then", or leave out the word "so" in Romans 11:26 in an attempt to make their Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Paul provides no path to salvation outside of the Olive Tree Church in the passage.

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[jgr]

The following paper by Brother David H J Gay reveals the incomplete nature of the Protestant Reformation.

The confusion between the Sinai Covenant (Exodus 34:28) and the New Covenant of Christ is still with us today.

The battle began in Acts chapter 15, when the Judaisers attempted to merge the Old Covenant with the New Covenant.

We are not come to the mountain that burns with fire, but instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion.
We have a better mediator than Moses, through the Blood of Christ. (See Hebrews 12:18-24, Hebrews 8:6-13)

We are under a higher law (The Law of Christ in 1 John 3:22-24), not for salvation, but for our conduct.

Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, which was the "sign" of the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant.
For those in the New Covenant, Christ is now our Sabbath rest every day of the week. (Col. 2:16-17)


Many in the modern Church have failed to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" found in Galatians 4:24-31.

They are clinging onto the "ministry of death", instead of embracing the ministry of the Spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

The confusion between the two covenants is seen daily on this forum.

A person cannot understand eschatology without acknowledging the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.



http://media.sermonaudio.com/articles/da-861792415-6.PDF

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Interesting commentary in the article, brother, thanks.

Do we concentrate our efforts on completing the Reformation by reclaiming true New Testament covenantalism, or do we focus on combating contemporary dispensational apostasy?

I believe that we've lost so much of what the original Reformation won, its flaws notwithstanding, that we need to focus on the latter. Dispensational dismissal of and disdain for historical Reformation prophetic faith and sacrifice, of which we see much, virtually necessitate it. Self-flagellation about Reformation flaws and faults only furthers the dispensational agenda.

Just my brief initial thoughts.

 

[BABerean2]

Interesting commentary in the article, brother, thanks.

Do we concentrate our efforts on completing the Reformation by reclaiming true New Testament covenantalism, or do we focus on combating contemporary dispensational apostasy?

I believe that we've lost so much of what the original Reformation won, its flaws notwithstanding, that we need to focus on the latter. Dispensational dismissal of and disdain for historical Reformation prophetic faith and sacrifice, of which we see much, virtually necessitate it. Self-flagellation about Reformation flaws and faults only furthers the dispensational agenda.

Just my brief initial thoughts.

Below you will find Brother David H J Gay's testimony.
It will be well worth your time to listen to it, when time allows.
I believe it may answer some of your question.

He was a reformed Baptist for a time and came to the New Covenant, through an effort to get what he was teaching to line up with scripture.

As to your question above, we have to do both if we are going to return the modern Church to the teachings of the Apostles.

There are probably millions sitting in various Reformed church bodies who are putting their faith in infant baptism.
A friend of mine used to be one of them.

My parents told me I was baptized as an infant.

I did not mean to step on your toes.

I love you, Brother.

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[Douggg]

Paul provides no path to salvation outside of the Olive Tree Church in the passage.

Get it right.
There is no path to salvation outside of CHRIST. The church can't save anyone.

The focus is JESUS, JESUS, JESUS.

 

[BABerean2]

Get it right.
There is no path to salvation outside of CHRIST. The church can't save anyone.

The focus is JESUS, JESUS, JESUS.

The "Church" is made up of all of those individuals who have placed their faith in Christ and have been "born again" by being indwelt with the Spirit. (See Luke 3:16, and 1 Corinthians 3:16.)
He is in us and we are in Him.

You cannot separate the word "Church" and the word "Christ", in order to make your doctrine work.

"Christ" saves those who are in the "Church".

The claim that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time, is impossible.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.


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[Douggg]

"Christ" saves those who are in the "Church".

No-one becomes part of the church, until after they are saved. A person is saved first.

Paul, when was he saved?

The claim that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time, is impossible.

You think the church died on the cross for forgiveness, and atonement of sins?

It is JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, alone - not the church - who saves.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.

No, they will be part of the saved Great Tribulation saints - not the church. The church will have been taken out the world before then and will have their redeemed bodies already, while the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

If you go to Revelation 7: 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They are not in their redeemed bodies. They get their redeemed bodies at the beginning of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6 in the first resurrection of millennium.

 

[BABerean2]

No-one becomes part of the church, until after they are saved. A person is saved first.

Paul, when was he saved?



You think the church died on the cross for forgiveness, and atonement of sins?

It is JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, alone - not the church - who saves.


No, they will be part of the saved Great Tribulation saints - not the church. The church will have been taken out the world before then and will have their redeemed bodies already, while the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

If you go to Revelation 7: 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They are not in their redeemed bodies. They get their redeemed bodies at the beginning of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6 in the first resurrection of millennium.

You are attempting to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today, is not found in the Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The term "tribulation saints" is a modern invention produced in an attempt to make the pretrib doctrine work.

You cannot come out of a room, unless you have been in the room.

You cannot come out of tribulation, unless you have been in the tribulation.

The claim that those in Revelation 12:11 are not members of the New Covenant Church, will not hold water.
It is a bridge that will not support its own weight.

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[Douggg]

You are attempting to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

I haven't even mentioned two peoples of God doctrine. That's a strawman argument, in the way you are using it because there is only one way to be saved and that is by the Lord Jesus Christ.

You cannot come out of a room, unless you have been in the room.

You cannot come out of tribulation, unless you have been in the tribulation.

It says they came out of great tribulation in Revelation 7.

The claim that those in Revelation 12:11 are not members of the New Covenant Church, will not hold water.
It is a bridge that will not support its own weight.

Revelation 12 is about the woman, Israel....not the church. Where are the two witnesses killed? Jerusalem.

What does Revelation 11 say they are doing during the 1260 days? witnessing (which is why they are called witnesses) and prophesying - which is in the text.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

They are not witnessing to the church, but Israel. That's why they are in Jerusalem, when they are killed.

The 144,000 from the twelve tribes, in Revelation 14, are the first fruits of them of Israel that the two witnesses win to Christ who are martyred.... the ones in Revelation 12:11 who loved their lives not unto death, by the word of their testimony.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Jews start fleeing to mountains when the Abomination of Desolation idol of the beast is setup in the temple. And the killing begins for refusing to worship the idol. The image is setup on day 1185. 75 days later, the two witnesses themselves are killed.

 

[BABerean2]

I haven't even mentioned two peoples of God doctrine. That's a strawman argument, in the way you are using it because there is only one way to be saved and that is by the Lord Jesus Christ.

In the past you reported me to the moderators of this forum for calling you a Dispensationalist, but yet you are promoting the same Two Peoples of God doctrine.

Why?

Do you deny that the Church is made up of all those individuals who have placed their faith in the Blood of Christ?

Once a person comes to understand that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the doctrine that you are promoting falls apart.

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[Douggg]

In the past you reported me to the moderators of this forum for calling you a Dispensationalist, but yet you are promoting the same Two Peoples of God doctrine.

Two peoples of God doctrine is a term you packaged up. I didn't. There is only one way to be saved and that is by the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not a dispensationalist, as you know,so stop with that line, before you get started.

Do you deny that the Church is made up of all those individuals who have placed their faith in the Blood of Christ?

Now who doesn't believe that?

Once a person comes to understand that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the doctrine that you are promoting falls apart.

Go back through all my posts here at this site or anywhere else. I have not said anything about a doctrine.
I do not claim a "two peoples of God doctrine". There is only one way to be saved and that is by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Israel is not saved yet, but they are going to be saved - when they come to Jesus.

I have been commenting on eschatology and how Israel is going to come to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't why you have such a big problem with God bringing Israel to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

Go back through all my posts here at this site or anywhere else. I have not said anything about a doctrine.
I do not claim a "two peoples of God doctrine". There is only one way to be saved and that is by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Israel is not saved yet, but they are going to be saved - when they come to Jesus.

I have been commenting on eschatology and how Israel is going to come to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't why you have such a big problem with God bringing Israel to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

The problem is the claim that the time of salvation for modern Jews lies in the future, while thousands die without Christ each year.

My wife and I support ministries which are taking the Gospel to the Jewish people, now.

The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline found in Daniel chapter 9 prove that the baby born in a manger is the Messiah promised in the Hebrews scriptures.

When will the modern Church begin sharing this simple three part sermon on Christian television?
It will be when the modern Two Peoples of God doctrine is abandoned.


Below you will find a modern Jew who found the promise of the New Covenant in his Hebrew scriptures.

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[Douggg]

The problem is the claim that the time of salvation for modern Jews lies in the future, while thousands die without Christ each year.

My wife and I support ministries which are taking the Gospel to the Jewish people, now.

Well, that's great, well done. But it doesn't change what the bible says about Israel coming to Jesus somewhere near the middle part of the seven years.

When will the modern Church begin sharing this simple three part sermon on Christian television?

It will be when the modern Two Peoples of God doctrine is abandoned.

It is not that the Jews haven't heard the gospel message of salvation. It is that they don't believe it. It's going to take them to go through the experience of believing the Antichrist is their messiah, and him betraying them.

 

[BABerean2]

It is not that the Jews haven't heard the gospel message of salvation. It is that they don't believe it.

You will see below that most Jews in modern Jerusalem have not heard the Gospel found in the Old Testament.
Therefore, your claim above is not correct.

The doctrine that you are promoting is a part of the problem.

This young man was willing to speak the truth, in love.

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[Douggg]

You will see below that most Jews in modern Jerusalem have not heard the Gospel found in the Old Testament.
Therefore, your claim above is not correct.

The doctrine that you are promoting is a part of the problem.

This young man was willing to speak the truth, in love.

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The only doctrine I am promoting is salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are mixing up "doctrine" with "eschatology".

The Jews don't have an "old testament" in their possession. They have the Tanach. They may also call it the Jewish Bible. Look at the title of your video.

Plus, you twisted what I wrote to "have not heard the Gospel found in the Old Testament". I said the Jews have heard the gospel of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, but they reject it.

 

[DavidPT]

The only doctrine I am promoting is salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are mixing up "doctrine" with "eschatology".

The Jews don't have an "old testament" in their possession. They have the Tanach. They may also call it the Jewish Bible. Look at the title of your video.

Plus, you twisted what I wrote to "have not heard the Gospel found in the Old Testament". I said the Jews have heard the gospel of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, but they reject it.

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


Who does this apply to, and when does it apply to them?

 

[Douggg]

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


Who does this apply to, and when does it apply to them?

Salvation is of the Jews in that it came through the nation of Israel in the person of Jesus. Offered to the Jews first then the gentiles. Jesus came into his own and his own received him not.

Paul's statement simply means Israel has not had the door closed on them to receive Jesus and Salvation. And we that are not Israel, but in Christ by grace and mercy, should not take the position that God has the door locked to them.

When salvation comes to Israel, meaning when they move out of unbelief and into belief in Jesus is at the mid-part of the 7 years. It is in Revelation 12:10.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation [to the Jews], and strength, and the kingdom of our God [to the Jews], and the power of his Christ [to the Jews]: for the accuser of our brethren [the Jews] is cast down, which accused them [the Jews] before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:6 for 1260 days the two witnesses testify to Israel. And before the 1260 days end, their perceived messiah betrays them. And the AoD is setup to be worshiped.
The Jews flee into the wilderness as the killing begins.

At the end of the 1260 days + the 3 1/2 days until the two witnesses come back to life and ascend - the war in the second heaven takes place and Satan and his angels cast down to earth. Which it is then that Salvation comes to the Jews as Paul said in Romans 11.

All of the end time timeframes can be built around Revelation 12. With the war in heaven at the middle part (not exactly the mid-point - but 3 1/2 days afterward) of the seven years as the pivot point.